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BiggerBoat posted:I think something that would help these sorts of games is mixing in some actual combat moves and real fighting styles, Arkham Batman and Spiderman PS style, where the stuff you build and unlock actually changes the way you fight and the different poo poo you can do instead of just having enough armor, potions and a strong enough sword or whatever. I think this is dangerous though. I think some games should go that way, but not every game should. There is value to pure RPG combat (character and/or roll based, with players only making decisions) that isn't replicated in action combat (player driven). It's like how turn-based combat was seen as obsolete and to be replaced by real time and yet now we have a renaissance of turn based games because no it actually turns out that real-time is different, not strictly superior. I would actually say Skyrim combat is CLOSE to being good for what it is trying to achieve. If you see Daggerfall/Morrowind as trying to take tabletop systems into the first person realtime genre and Oblivion/Skyrim being a refinement of that then I think it does a decent job of retaining the character-focus of RPG combat. All it really needs is better AI behavior and hit reaction to sell the combat. It doesn't have to be skilled combat. You swing your weapon by clicking your mouse instead of declaring an attack to the GM. Definitely I would like to see good action combat in RPGs, but only in addition to instead of replacing the playerskill-less RPG combat of games like Skyrim.
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Jul 11, 2020 04:54
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Triarii posted:In a game where the player can choose such radically different character archetypes, it's hard to add any depth to combat outside of Bigger Numbers. Like, in the Spiderman game, the enemy behavior is entirely designed around being fun to fight as Spiderman - if you could decide to play the game as Doctor Strange instead then basically none of the things the enemies are doing are going to be interesting to deal with using his powers. Same goes for the game's environmental challenges and puzzles. These are all great points and I get what you're saying but now all of a sudden I want to play a Spiderman game as Dr. Strange so I'm back on my original viewpoint. I think you can do both. I mean....how DO you make a Dr. Strange video game anyway? Just build the combat around those powers, I suppose, like you said. I think the way to approach it is to make physical AND magic combat sort of similar and in the same framework but just change how it looks, and maybe how it feels, but keep the essence of it the same. Like, using your example (Spiderman and Dr. Strange), allow for different combo builds, counters, and ranges attacks to do basically the same thing but just have them appear and maybe FEEL different, even if the end result is the same. If that makes any sense. I get what you're saying but I still think it's doable. Just hide the underlying combat mechanics behind the different moves and spells. Like, in the Arkham games, you can freeze enemies, do ranged attacks, almost teleport and also unleash bat swarms and poo poo. Those are essentially spells if you want to try it that way, right? Hope I'm explaining this well enough.
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Jul 11, 2020 04:58
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In Shadow of Mordor, the Bat-Combat is recontextualized around elf ghost powers, so I don't see why it wouldn't work for a Doctor Strange game.
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Jul 11, 2020 05:00
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John Murdoch posted:For the record, I believe this is pretty much the Quest for Glory series. Though they were RPG/point and click adventure game hybrids rather than traditional RPGs. Such a good series. To fit this thread though, I will say that it's issue is that it's too easy to become a jack of all trades. Like, I think one of the only things you can miss out on are the thief jobs, since you only get access to the guild if you're a thief. Mages just get some extra combat spells, and warriors get...a shield? Meh.
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Jul 11, 2020 05:59
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Inspector Gesicht posted:While it's cool that stealing from an NPC means they'll sic bounty-hunters on you later, the illusion is broken when it's a dead character you've wronged. Looking at you, Deekus. Whats weird is that their wills said "and don't forget to sic some bounty hunters on that dovahkiin rear end in a top hat". Thats some real forethought.
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Jul 11, 2020 06:08
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Leal posted:Whats weird is that their wills said "and don't forget to sic some bounty hunters on that dovahkiin rear end in a top hat". Thats some real forethought. I mean, given how most people play those games, that's not too bad an idea to put in your will. Even if the Dovahkiin isn't responsible for your death, they probably deserve some bounty hunters anyway.
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Jul 11, 2020 06:21
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Not so much the game’s fault but my gaming group is really bad at Titanfall 2 and it’s making me salty cause I’m also bad.
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Jul 11, 2020 06:52
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BiggerBoat posted:These are all great points and I get what you're saying but now all of a sudden I want to play a Spiderman game as Dr. Strange so I'm back on my original viewpoint. I think you can do both. I mean....how DO you make a Dr. Strange video game anyway? Just build the combat around those powers, I suppose, like you said. I think the way to approach it is to make physical AND magic combat sort of similar and in the same framework but just change how it looks, and maybe how it feels, but keep the essence of it the same. Yeah, you're making sense to me. Put Dr. Strange in a Spider-Man game and have the two of them play the same in combat (Dr.S is probably less limited comparatively as far as range goes though since, well, spells) like how the Arkham games gave you 7 different characters but they all played the same and just had different gadgets. Triangle should still be counter, square to attack, etc etc. Just give them different animations for their attacks and that's good enough. I have the same problem with him and Green Lantern, personally. Like, the possibilities with them are so out there that I can't think of anything to do with them. It's why I'm awful with creative games like Minecraft or things like that. If you can make anything and I have to come up with it? Well I'm completely hosed then. And you don't wanna just turn him into just a flying laser beam guy because you can do a lot more interesting stuff with him than firing endless lightning bolts and lasers. At the very least he's a character that can be pretty useful in most situations. And even if he can't just trap them falling down a pair of portals and that'll buy time till you come up with a perfect solution.
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Jul 11, 2020 07:04
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Man, if someone told me they were making a game where you play as Dr Strange, I would start picturing something like a mix of Portal and that cool level in Dishonored 2 where you swap between different time periods. I have no idea how it would work but I would be excited to see how they'd do it. If I found out that actually it was reskinned Arkham combat, my immediate reaction would be "well that's lame".
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Jul 11, 2020 07:21
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A Doctor Strange VR game with motion tracking would be cool but tiring.
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Jul 11, 2020 07:23
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Triarii posted:Man, if someone told me they were making a game where you play as Dr Strange, I would start picturing something like a mix of Portal and that cool level in Dishonored 2 where you swap between different time periods. I have no idea how it would work but I would be excited to see how they'd do it. If I found out that actually it was reskinned Arkham combat, my immediate reaction would be "well that's lame". My hypothetical was more to be taken as 'Dr. Strange as a playable character in Marvel's Spider-Man 4' or something not a Dr. Strange solo game.
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Jul 11, 2020 07:33
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RareAcumen posted:My hypothetical was more to be taken as 'Dr. Strange as a playable character in Marvel's Spider-Man 4' or something not a Dr. Strange solo game. Yeah I get it, and this discussion started with different character classes in Skyrim. But my point is that any situation where you stick Dr Strange or any wizard-type character in a game and give them the same combat mechanics as a brawler but with more flashy particle effects is going to be disappointing compared to where you could go if you had a game that was just all about being a badass wizard.
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Jul 11, 2020 07:37
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RareAcumen posted:Green Lantern
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Jul 11, 2020 08:25
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Triarii posted:Yeah I get it, and this discussion started with different character classes in Skyrim. But my point is that any situation where you stick Dr Strange or any wizard-type character in a game and give them the same combat mechanics as a brawler but with more flashy particle effects is going to be disappointing compared to where you could go if you had a game that was just all about being a badass wizard. And it's also tough to figure out where to start. Do you go summoner and have them making tons of golems or necromancer doing the same with undead and skeletons? What about muscle wizards? Or just summoning meteors or throwing a mountain at someone? Etc etc, forever I wouldn't be able to come up with anything cool aside from 'Don't give them a mana bar that doesn't recharge like stamina.' My Lovely Horse posted:Scribblenauts Yeah, same problem.
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Jul 11, 2020 08:35
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Doctor Spaceman posted:A Doctor Strange VR game with motion tracking would be cool but tiring. This, or its have to have a spell casting mode where your sticks control hand movements and buttons control fingers, with real intricate movements for the good spells Also lots of spells with very similar gestures so in a panic, you might accidentally cast a spell that makes the demon speak french instead of a fire stream or something. Dr Strange was a character in Marvel Ultimate Alliance and he had an attack that was just 'turn enemy into box'
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Jul 11, 2020 09:28
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Fingerless Gloves posted:Dr Strange was a character in Marvel Ultimate Alliance and he had an attack that was just 'turn enemy into box' This attack made him likely the strongest character in the game.
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Jul 11, 2020 09:28
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Fingerless Gloves posted:This, or its have to have a spell casting mode where your sticks control hand movements and buttons control fingers, with real intricate movements for the good spells So like big budget Magicka without the pop culture references?
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Jul 11, 2020 09:36
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My Lovely Horse posted:Scribblenauts So every fight is just A. summon Cthulhu, B. win?
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Jul 11, 2020 11:22
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Changed my mind about the best model for the Green Lantern game. It's Bayonetta.
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Jul 11, 2020 11:30
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My Lovely Horse posted:Changed my mind about the best model for the Green Lantern game. It's Bayonetta. They sort of did that, there was a movie tie in Green Lantern game that was a character action brawler type thing and not utterly terrible.
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Jul 11, 2020 11:38
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Yeah, that game only had 12 different constructs, but you could equip 8 at a time and switch between them rapidfire during combat so it felt fairly fluid and fun. The last construct was stupid, but in a funny way, where you just make a jet fighter and throw it at the enemy Like if you were crowd controlling with the spike ball construct and saw an energy ball coming at you you could quickly tap the button combo for the baseball bat and whap it away then go back to the spike balls if you wanted.
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Jul 11, 2020 11:54
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bony tony posted:So like big budget Magicka without the pop culture references? Or Surgeon Simulator.
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Jul 11, 2020 14:03
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Man, now I want a vr game where its several wizards rushing to get a ritual done, and the books with the info you need to actually do it are stuck in places around the room and you need to cross reference to get stuff right.
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Jul 11, 2020 17:48
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Zoig posted:Man, now I want a vr game where its several wizards rushing to get a ritual done, and the books with the info you need to actually do it are stuck in places around the room and you need to cross reference to get stuff right. So a fantasy Keep Talking and Nobody Explodes?
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Jul 11, 2020 18:00
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Inspector Gesicht posted:I'm on my nth Skyrim character and I pretty much never bother tripping the event-flag that makes Dragons appear. This is the only enjoyable way to play skyrim imo. The dragons have always been my least favorite part of it; I hated how they'd show up and kill every killable NPC in town because the NPCs were too stupid to not stand right in its fire breath (the vampire invasions have similar issues) and whoops there go your side quests. Also they just kind of weren't fun to fight. I'll sacrifice the ability to chat up balgruuf if it means being able to enjoy the rest of the game without hearing that dragon music, a screech and then fighting a dragon for like ten minutes before it fucks off to its special dragon tower to die that I'm not going to walk to because I was going somewhere else.
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Jul 11, 2020 23:26
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Nuebot posted:This is the only enjoyable way to play skyrim imo. The dragons have always been my least favorite part of it; I hated how they'd show up and kill every killable NPC in town because the NPCs were too stupid to not stand right in its fire breath (the vampire invasions have similar issues) and whoops there go your side quests. Also they just kind of weren't fun to fight. I'll sacrifice the ability to chat up balgruuf if it means being able to enjoy the rest of the game without hearing that dragon music, a screech and then fighting a dragon for like ten minutes before it fucks off to its special dragon tower to die that I'm not going to walk to because I was going somewhere else. The run for your lives mod was a godsend and I don't know why that wasn't in the game from the start.
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Jul 11, 2020 23:45
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BiggerBoat posted:I think something that would help these sorts of games is mixing in some actual combat moves and real fighting styles, Arkham Batman and Spiderman PS style, where the stuff you build and unlock actually changes the way you fight and the different poo poo you can do instead of just having enough armor, potions and a strong enough sword or whatever. Well, they kinda do, again in unique and idiosyncratic ways— Morrowind had three basic combat moves; chop, slash, and stab, done by combining movement input with the attack button. All weapons can do all attacks and have different damage ranges for each, usually with a vastly preferred one based on type (axes are good at chopping, spears are good at stabbing, swords are more balanced). Oblivion ditched the attack types but did add power attacks—at certain intervals of the weapon skills you would get 'new moves' but they were just, like, a different animation and a damage modifier, again based on adding a movement input while attacking. Genuinely lol at the idea of trying to implement anything more complex than that in gamebryo.
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Jul 12, 2020 00:44
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All RPGs should be turn-based and XP should be awarded for story progress and no other reason. All problems solved!
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Jul 12, 2020 12:16
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Tiggum posted:All RPGs should be turn-based and XP should be awarded for story progress and no other reason. All problems solved! Ahh, finally, someone who's as excited about the new Paper Mario as I am.
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Jul 12, 2020 12:23
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Inspector Gesicht posted:Destiny is so full of Nouns and big-dumb-objects that the whole world feels sexless and rote. Attempts at injecting a little life into proceedings feel like giving the reshoots of a troubled production over to Joss Whedon. Outer Wilds is so goddamn good. At the start everything is strange and weird and then you peel back layer after layer and it all falls into place. And you can do it in any order you like so they had to make sure that the story works even when you are not exploring in a way they intended. Until the end you always had the feeling that you can just round the corner on any planet and find another gigantic mistery. It also looks absolutely gorgeous and the soundtrack is great. I was so sad when it ended just because i wanted to spend more time in its universe and discover more of its secrets.
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Jul 12, 2020 12:53
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Shai-Hulud posted:It also looks absolutely gorgeous and the soundtrack is great. drat right it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMlDj1JlrPw
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Jul 12, 2020 13:27
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Aya in AssCreed: Origins is completely useless. She's weak, doesn't have a shield and any weapons Bayek gets doesn't transfer to her. She's hopeless in direct combat and when she's against a boss you have to snipe at them with arrows until your adrenalin is at a max.
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Jul 12, 2020 14:17
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Cleretic posted:Ahh, finally, someone who's as excited about the new Paper Mario as I am. Thousand Year Door was so amazing it makes everyone forget how flawed all the other Paper Mario games are.
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Jul 12, 2020 14:21
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Outer Wilds is a loving marvel on so many levels. I guess sometimes I wish the campfire wait option ran a bit quicker? Dark Bramble is a bit annoying?
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Jul 12, 2020 14:27
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Belongs in the little things thread I guess, but one tiny detail I love in Outer Wilds is that if the Quantum Moon is in view when you wake up, it disappears right away when you blink.
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Jul 12, 2020 14:54
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BiggerBoat posted:I think something that would help these sorts of games is mixing in some actual combat moves and real fighting styles, Arkham Batman and Spiderman PS style, where the stuff you build and unlock actually changes the way you fight and the different poo poo you can do instead of just having enough armor, potions and a strong enough sword or whatever. This is kind of what Kingdoms of Amalur did. The combat was closely based on a Devil May Cry model, and was easily the best part of the game. Each of the three combat styles (sword and board/two handed, daggers/bow, magic) would let you unlock additional moves through leveling up. It was one of the few open world games at the time that realised if you had a game with a lot of combat, that combat needs to be fun. I'm kind of surprised no one, to my knowledge, made a QTE magic system. It wouldn't be overly complicated to design one where the player had to hit buttons corresponding to whichever spell they want to cast in a rhythm, like Magicka with a beat: hit A to start a fire spell, Y to make it a projectile, X to make it explode, X to make it explode bigger, RB to cast. The amount of time put into casting a spell determines its power, but also leaves the caster open to attack. This could get expanded further by incorporating different rhythms and speeds for different effects if you wanted to get really crazy with it. That would be one way to mrchanically differentiate it from physical attacks, at least. I can't see it working for a slower game, but for a more action oriented game, it could work.
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Jul 12, 2020 15:50
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OutOfPrint posted:This is kind of what Kingdoms of Amalur did. The combat was closely based on a Devil May Cry model, and was easily the best part of the game. Each of the three combat styles (sword and board/two handed, daggers/bow, magic) would let you unlock additional moves through leveling up. It was one of the few open world games at the time that realised if you had a game with a lot of combat, that combat needs to be fun. Legend of Grimrock did a kind of magic system like you're talking about  not really a rhythm game...I think you're looking for Crypt of the Necrodancer Wizard edition.
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Jul 12, 2020 15:55
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HookedOnChthonics posted:Genuinely lol at the idea of trying to implement anything more complex than that in gamebryo. at risk of sounding like a broken record this poo poo does not come down to Gamebryo at all, gamebryo has been used to great effect in everything from Civ IV to Rocksmith 2014 and has literally less than nothing to do with how bad bethesda is at programming combat or designing npc AI or whatever the hell we're bitching about today
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Jul 12, 2020 16:44
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rydiafan posted:Thousand Year Door was so amazing it makes everyone forget how flawed all the other Paper Mario games are. No, people keep comparing every other Paper Mario to TTYD and being mad that they aren't TTYD. And I kind of understand it; there wasn't really anything else like the first two Paper Marios, and they were really good, so it's a little disappointing that we aren't getting more Paper Marios like them. Color Splash was still the funniest game I've ever played, though, and we've got Bug Fables now, so I'm not as broken up about it as some apparently are. But I brought them up because Tiggum's description is literally how the last two Paper Marios did it, and the new one coming out I think next week is doing the same. But Sticker Star and Color Splash had a big problem there in that the lack of tangible rewards and a combat system focused around consumables made random encounters feel like wastes of time and resources (and in Sticker Star they basically were; Color Splash balanced things much better). Origami King looks like they've figured out a new solution; combat isn't entirely consumable-based anymore, and they've leaned hard into coins as both a reward and resource, so it's no longer a waste of time to fight enemies.
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Jul 12, 2020 17:18
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OutOfPrint posted:
That's a really cool idea. I like it. Sounds similar to working combos in games like Arkham and DMC. You could make it a tiered system too where how effective the spell was correlated to how well you input the prompts rather than just "press L1 for a fireball or a lightening bolt". So if you were 50/50 with the QTE/button combo, the spell was weakened and if you really just hosed it up, it would simply fail. Someone brought up the idea of a Green Lantern game and I have no idea how to make that work without using contextual choices for the ring usage based on the area of the level. Like, you could go to use the ring and maybe have 8 choices of what to construct (giant boxing glove, big hammer, huge chains, etc.) that would change depending on where you were. Get weird with it and each construct would do something different. Then just have some standard ring stuff you could do at any time. Put the 24 hour time limit on it and have harder levels use lots of yellow obstacles. A Dr. Strange game should borrow from the movie Inception, where you warp the environment with different spell ideas that let you progress through the level(s). There was an old Soul Reaver game that did this. Ocinara of Time too (and that one had songs/button combos you needed to remember that worked like spells a little bit). Combat could be the same as your idea with the rythym based inputs that offer several different ways to fight or sneak or whatever, using the environments too like Control did. Not a punch based thing but more a DMC thing. I'd like to see them take a shot at it just to see how wild they could make the visuals.
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Jul 12, 2020 17:53
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