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Virtual Russian posted:1. I'm 100% certain I'm going to put research speed up to a bit below normal. I really enjoy playing at a slow research speed, but its just too slow for a LP. Just posted about this in the grog discord, but there's two places you can adjust things like research rates - in the game screen and in the race creation screen. The former adjusts rates for every race in the game, including your own - the latter is only for that race, eg you. So if for example you want a game where your tech doesn't progress so much in the beginning (making early ships ridiculously obsolete before they're even built), you can lower your own research multiplier, but still keep NPRs at a higher rate so that they don't get nerfed. NPRs are pretty simple and absolutely need some sort of edge over human players most of the time (though usually in my case it's my own lovely designs and terrible play). You can adjust these at any time too, so you can choose when to slow things down and when to accelerate.
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Jul 20, 2020 13:40
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The Lone Badger posted:Haha, that's the spirit! They don't like the taste of cold steel, your basic extee. Put the Marines on board and we'll send them running back to Aldebaran! Is this a too-vague way to say it's a bad idea? I was mostly wondering since apparently the main ideas people put forth is 1. missiles and 2. beams, and I'm wondering if those are just the only things worth building around or if there's other viable options.
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Jul 20, 2020 16:35
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A little delayed, I'm just wrapping up the ship vote stuff now. One thing I'm noticing is an overall preference towards missiles. I just want to take a second to highlight how missiles were seriously nerfed in the move from VB6 Aurora to C# Aurora. They are still powerful, and something I consider a must have, but I feel you must have some kind of back-up energy weapon. 1. Gauss Cannon ROF is higher by default, and is faster to research. You can expect to face more PD at each tech level than in VB Aurora. 2. PD fire controls can now engage multiple missile salvos in a 5 second increment, each weapon can still only engage a single salvo. This means many smaller missile salvos no longer overwhelm enemy PD. 3. Final Defensive fire will always trigger, even if you fired your missiles from such a close range that they strike inside the same 5 second interval. So called "Torpedoes" are no longer a thing. 4. There is now research tech that makes PD more accurate the longer missiles are on your scopes, long range missiles are more likely to be shot down by final defensive fire. 5. No more armored missiles, missiles are much easier to shoot down. 6. Active sensor's are much shorter ranged now, no more AWACs style ships that can see for AUs. Missiles are still a powerful long range weapon. However, they cannot be solely relied on. Especially considering their ability to bypass PD at short range is now gone. If you get ambushed going through a JP without energy weapons you are in serious trouble. Also power plants are way more size efficient now, so powering your energy weapons takes less space. I see missiles new role as being for blasting holes in armor to be later exploited by energy weapons in close range fighting.
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Jul 20, 2020 16:37
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Ship Production Vote Let’s decide which of the proposed ships will be put into production. This will work the same as a policy vote. I’ll first have the categories, along with the ships in each category. I’m going to add commentary where I feel it is necessary, otherwise I’m going to try to stay impartial. At the end of the post I’ll include the voting docket. In the future I'm going to try to limit us to voting on a single ship class at a time, we just really needed multiple things this time due to the game being so new. 1. First, by popular demand, let’s examine the Survey Vessels up for production: Option A - We have Gnoman’s Endeavour Class Exploration Cruiser. -This ship will be produced in our 12,500 ton capacity military shipyard. A production run under the current policies would see a maximum of two vessels produced. -Of note is that if we select this ship, Gnoman’s Cruiser design can also be produced out of the same shipyard. While this may represent a building program beyond what is authorized, this kind of flexibility cannot be ignored. -This design will require a custom engine, which will either cost us research time, or we will purchase the design though a yet to be determined cost. code: -This ship will be produced in our 2,000 ton capacity military shipyard. A production run under the current policies would see between 3-6 vessels produced. -This design will require a custom engine, which will either cost us research time, or we will purchase the design though a yet to be determined cost. Option C – As these were not originally called for in our policies I am including the option to produce no new survey vessels. 2. Next, we’ll look at the warships currently up for consideration. Option A – Here we have Gnoman’s Aswan class Cruiser. -This ship will be produced in our 12,500 ton capacity military shipyard. A production run under the current policies would see a maximum of two vessels produced. -Of note is that if we select this ship, Gnoman’s Surveyor design should also be able to be produced out of the same shipyard. While this may represent a building program beyond what is authorized, this kind of flexibility cannot be ignored. -This design will require a custom engine, which will either cost us research time, or we will purchase the design though a yet to be determined cost. -An excellent patrol cruiser, though I would definitely be very hesitant to throw this ship into the battleline. It is somewhat slow, as well as having armor on the thin side. This vessel is extremely well suited to independent long range patrols outside the Sol System. code:-These ships will be produced in both our 12,500ton and 2000ton military shipyards. Under the current building policies a single production run would be a single Wyvern and 6 Kobolds. T-his design will require new missile and sensor designs, which will either cost us research time, or we will purchase the design though a yet to be determined cost. -While these are a cohesive fighting unit, it must be mentioned that these vessels are ill suited to long-term deployments outside the Sol System. Option C – Firefox also submitted the Yeti class Frigate.  -This ship will be produced in our 12,500 ton capacity military shipyard. A production run under the current policies would see a maximum of two vessels produced. -This design will require custom a fire control and a new missile launcher, which will either cost us research time, or we will purchase the design though a yet to be determined cost. Of note is that each of these parts are quite small, and would be quickly researched. -This vessel can preform long range patrols outside the Sol System with the aid of a tanker, which we have. I would also point out that this is a “High Performance” style vessel, boasting impressive speed and survivability in combat, but is prone to breakdowns and requiring frequent maintenance overhauls. 3. Let us now examine the Colony Ships up for consideration. Option A – First, we have LLSix’s Completely Ethical class Colony Ship  -This design can be produced in either our large or small commercial shipyards. The production run will see the likely completion of six vessels, with the possibility for production beyond that number. -This design can carry 100,000 colonists. -The design will require the production of a new commercial engine taking advantage of technology about to be finished. This engine update will be produced no matter what, and is not a disadvantage. Option B – Second, we have LLSix’s Sufficient class Colony Ship  -This design can be produced in either our large or small commercial shipyards. The production run will see the likely completion of nine vessels, with the possibility for production beyond that number. -The design will require the production of a new commercial engine taking advantage of technology about to be finished. This engine update will be produced no matter what and is not a disadvantage. -Of note is that this ship can carry enough infrastructure to house the 40,000 colonists on a colony cost 2 planet. While this does not pertain to the current colonization effort aimed at Adrastapol, it would be applicable to other planets we already are aware of and will likely colonize in the near future. Option C – Lastly, we have Firefox’s Mule class Colony Ship.  -This design can be produced in either our large or small commercial shipyards. The production run will see the likely completion of six vessels, with the possibility for production beyond that number. Firefox has also included a design for an up to date freighter that can be produced out of the same tooled shipyard. -Due to its short range, this vessel will require tanker service in its duties colonizing Adrastapol. -The design will require the production of a new commercial engine taking advantage of technology about to be finished. This engine update will be produced no matter what and is not a disadvantage. 4. As there were no other submissions, LLSix’s Minimal class Troop Transport wins be default. While slow, the long range of this vessel will see it remain useful for quite a long time.  LLSix gains an extra vote for use in a future vote (quote this when you use it so I can keep track please)! ++++++++++++++ Ship Production Voting Docket ++++++++++++++ 1. Survey Vessels A. - Gnoman’s Endeavour Class Exploration Cruiser, a large armed survey vessel. B. - LLsix’s Opportunity class Deep Space Survey Ship, a compact short ranged survey vessel. C. - Produce neither designs 2. Warships A. - Gnoman’s Aswan class Cruiser, a large missile armed patrol cruiser. B. - Foxfire’s two ship designs, the Kobold class Missile Destroyer and Wyvern class Scout Frigate, a short ranged fast attack strike group. C. - Firefox's Yeti class Frigate, a high performance missile frigate capable of patrols with aid of a tanker. 1. Colony Ships A. - LLSix’s Completely Ethical class Colony Ship, a colony ship with 100,000 colonist capacity. B. - LLSix’s Sufficient class Colony Ship, a 40,000 capacity colony ship that can also carry 10,000 tons of cargo. C. - Firefox’s Mule class Colony Ship, a colony ship with 100,000 colonist capacity, will require tanker aid to colonize Adrastapol. ++++++++++++++ End of Voting Docket ++++++++++++++
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Jul 20, 2020 18:21
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Survey: B Warship: B Colony: B
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Jul 20, 2020 18:50
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Drone posted:Maybe the thread should just kinda dictate general fleet doctrine, leaving Tesla Cola the task of putting together ship proposals that match the doctrine? I'd reaaally rather not dominate the game that way. OP is going to make sure ships are reasonable enough to have a fighting chance against the NPR and thats good enough for me. Saros posted:My game had the opposite problem once I eventually let the players run wild on ship design. The resultant fleet was so outrageously min-maxed it was tricky to win fights without making them incredibly lopsided. It can absolutely swing the other way to once people get the hang of how all the systems work! VOTING: B,B,B Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Jul 20, 2020 |
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Jul 20, 2020 19:01
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Survey B We need cheap, longranged survey-craft, not overgunned white elephants. Warships A A well rounded design, capable of limited self-defense. But most crucially, it fulfills the requirement for a longrange vessel. Colony Ships A This class delivers nearly 50% more people to their destinations than the Sufficient class. The option to deliver the necessary infrastructure is neat, but we already have freighters for the job.
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Jul 20, 2020 19:09
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Feel free to give me (constructive) feedback on the LP so far. It's my first LP so I'm curious what working and what isn't. I feel like the content hasn't been super engaging yet, but we also haven't really had stuff happen. One thing I'm definitely going to try to fill that void with is info on the named officials.
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Jul 20, 2020 19:10
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ABA Also as a curious question, which has the upper effective range ceiling out of railguns and energy weapons?
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Jul 20, 2020 19:11
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We'll likely not play long enough to cap out all tech, but I think 800,000 kilometres is the cap on lasers, and railguns shoot a little shorter possibly. So it's significant;y shorter range than missiles. Beam gun ships are usually less dependent on the range of their beams (still very important), and more dependent on their raw speed. Range matters a lot, but if your opponent outpaces your beam ship it will never get in range to fire.
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Jul 20, 2020 19:24
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Virtual Russian posted:We'll likely not play long enough to cap out all tech, but I think 800,000 kilometres is the cap on lasers, and railguns shoot a little shorter possibly. So it's significant;y shorter range than missiles. Beam gun ships are usually less dependent on the range of their beams (still very important), and more dependent on their raw speed. Range matters a lot, but if your opponent outpaces your beam ship it will never get in range to fire. Clearly we need to build Hiigaran Ion Cannon Frigates. Just one ship shaped around a huge energy weapon to toast enemies from halfway across the battle zone.
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Jul 20, 2020 19:27
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Virtual Russian posted:We'll likely not play long enough to cap out all tech, but I think 800,000 kilometres is the cap on lasers, and railguns shoot a little shorter possibly. Just for those who don't know, the max possible range of any beam weapon is 1,500,000 km because they are considered to be "instant" shots at the speed of light (300,000 km/s) and the shortest "tick" of time in Aurora is 5 seconds. I think the specific in-game block is that beam fire controls simply cannot be designed to have more than the 1.5Mkm range limit. Steve did it this way so he would not have to have the game track a "beam" shot firing over more than one tick (at a presumably moving target). Oddly enough, in Aurora it's actually pretty easy to get lasers (the longest ranged beam weapons) that can shoot the maximum range without fading away to zero damage. It's not even that many tech levels in, assuming you balance teching up the size of the laser (the bigger the laser, the more damage, so the farther it will go before hitting zero) and the wavelength (higher wavelengths = more range). Something like 5 or so tech levels in each, iirc. That's still a lot of research points just to start plinking away a little earlier though. This does mean that if you max out the tech you have the somewhat silly situation where a giant laser can still do massive damage at 1,500,000 km and is useless at 1,500,001km, but hey it's a spacegame. Neophyte fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Jul 20, 2020 |
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Jul 20, 2020 19:51
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Votes: -Survey: A The versatility of being able to produce a cruiser from the same shipyard as a surveyor is a strong argument in its favor. We won't necessarily need an endless supply of surveyors, so in the event of a sudden conflict, being able to supplement our fighting forces without retooling any shipyards may prove invaluable. -Warship: B We'll want to upgrade the designs for longer deployments as technology advances, but for now, these designs should serve us well, particularly given that we can produce an alternate cruiser design from other shipyards. -Colony: B The more infrastructure we can deploy alongside our colonists, the better. We want our colonies productive, not just existing.
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Jul 20, 2020 21:34
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Survey: C (no ship): For geosurvey, we can do better with a commercial design and don't have a pressing need for gravsurvey since we haven't caught up to our explored territory now. Warship: C (Yeti): Using both naval yards isn't worth the extra capability & we won't be building enough ships to be worth commiting to the designs with bigger upfront component cost. Colony: A: B is a better dedicated colony ship, but A is ok and lets the shipyard also produce freighters. We will want more freighters than colony ships since they deploy stuff to colonies and also haul back minerals. So: 12.5k, 2 slipway naval yard: Yeti 2k, 3 slipway naval yard: Available (gravsurvey ship?) 100k, 2 slipway commercial yard: Troopship 50k, 3 slipway commercial yard: Colonyship & freighters Virtual Russian posted:2. I want lots of components for you guys to build with, I'm trying to figure a way out to just add in components for free without research (spacemastering), but still have some cost. My current line of thought is that we can "purchase" component designs from the civilian market, sidestepping researching them. To represent this ideally I would delete a portion of our stored wealth relative to the RP cost of the component. However, unless I'm mistaken, wealth is like the one thing you cannot alter in spacemaster mode. Instead, what i'd like to do is simply delete a portion of our financial centers, again relative to the RP cost of the component. Basically I'd justify this as the privatization of state run enterprises to generate the liquidity needed to purchase the designs. Doing this will give us the flexibility to build designs that require several new components without spending years researching first. Deleting FCs will have a real impact on our wealth generation, so that creates a real non-research cost. I'd like to get everyone's thoughts on this. One thing that might be easier to do and more granular is to make a dummy 'prototyping capacity' ship component that we build & stockpile, then cash in for component RP points. Then we can balance building those vs building factories/infrastructure/mines.
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Jul 20, 2020 22:00
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Zanzibar Ham posted:Is this a too-vague way to say it's a bad idea? I was mostly wondering since apparently the main ideas people put forth is 1. missiles and 2. beams, and I'm wondering if those are just the only things worth building around or if there's other viable options. I know absolutely nothing about ships or combat, allowing me to have very strong opinions on them unencumbered by facts. I feel this makes me admirably suited to a position on the general staff of the design bureau.
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Jul 20, 2020 23:23
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C - We've got a lot of good real-estate already, I'm not in a hurry to go scouting right now. C A EclecticTastes posted:-Colony: B Infrastructure is not infrastructure. A better name might be life-support equipment. It's a specific thing and the only thing it does is allow people on hostile planets (colony cost > 0) to not die. Since we're settling a colony cost 0 planet first, we don't need it. Everything that is actually useful, factories, mines, sensors, etc, comes in 25k cargo chunks and is too big to fit in the Sufficient. With C#, can ships even reload box-launchers anymore? I thought Steve changed it so you had to be in a dock/orbit to reload them. If that's right, the Aswan's combination of box-launchers and reloads is somewhere between non-sensical and crippling flaw. Sorry I didn't point this out earlier, I hadn't looked at the military designs until just now. Virtual Russian posted:Feel free to give me (constructive) feedback on the LP so far. It's my first LP so I'm curious what working and what isn't. I feel like the content hasn't been super engaging yet, but we also haven't really had stuff happen. One thing I'm definitely going to try to fill that void with is info on the named officials. I would be fine with less detail in the updates and only notifying us of important changes, especially if you want to keep research below starting levels. If we're going to pay for new component designs (which is fine) I'd rather research them the usual way than any of the workarounds suggested so far. Foxfire_ posted:One thing that might be easier to do and more granular is to make a dummy 'prototyping capacity' ship component that we build & stockpile, then cash in for component RP points. Then we can balance building those vs building factories/infrastructure/mines. LLSix fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Jul 21, 2020 |
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Jul 21, 2020 00:03
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LLSix posted:With C#, can ships even reload box-launchers anymore? I thought Steve changed it so you had to be in a dock/orbit to reload them. If that's right, the Aswan's combination of box-launchers and reloads is somewhere between non-sensical and crippling flaw. Sorry I didn't point this out earlier, I hadn't looked at the military designs until just now. You have to be either docked in a hanger or at someplace with maintenance facilities (which has a reload speed penalty). Aswan gets one salvo with its 3 box launchers, then future shots only use the 13 reloadable tubes. I figured the box ones were there to use up some otherwise empty tonnage.
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Jul 21, 2020 00:13
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Foxfire_ posted:You have to be either docked in a hanger or at someplace with maintenance facilities (which has a reload speed penalty). Aswan gets one salvo with its 3 box launchers, then future shots only use the 13 reloadable tubes. I figured the box ones were there to use up some otherwise empty tonnage. Oh, I didn't even notice the non-box launchers. That makes the design much more interesting than I thought it was. LLSix fucked around with this message at 00:22 on Jul 21, 2020 |
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Jul 21, 2020 00:19
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Virtual Russian posted:Feel free to give me (constructive) feedback on the LP so far. It's my first LP so I'm curious what working and what isn't. I feel like the content hasn't been super engaging yet, but we also haven't really had stuff happen. One thing I'm definitely going to try to fill that void with is info on the named officials. It's pretty quiet now, but we're still getting set up. There's only so much you can do with the material you've got, right? I know very little about Aurora beyond what's been discussed in-thread, so I do appreciate us gradually scaling up to bigger and better things.
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Jul 21, 2020 00:43
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The only sort of advice I'd give for how to run the LP is, with a game like Aurora, there's the risk of making updates too granular, for the sake of giving the thread as much control as possible. Thread participation is great, but you also don't want the game to progress too slowly.
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Jul 21, 2020 00:52
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thanks for the feedback, and here a WIP of something I'm working on. I enjoy working on pixel art stuff. This is pretty simple, and mostly ripped/modified from shipbucket parts templates. I think some visual accents could really spice up the updates, the game is certainly not the easiest to look at/visualize.
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Jul 21, 2020 00:54
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hey, that's 100% more spaceship than i've made, i don't care if it's low effort just keep posting
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Jul 21, 2020 01:46
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quote:++++++++++++++ Ship Production Voting Docket ++++++++++++++
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Jul 21, 2020 02:02
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Foxfire_ posted:You have to be either docked in a hanger or at someplace with maintenance facilities (which has a reload speed penalty). Aswan gets one salvo with its 3 box launchers, then future shots only use the 13 reloadable tubes. I figured the box ones were there to use up some otherwise empty tonnage. Does a ship-based maintenance module count for this? If we had to send ships with box launchers far out as part of an expeditionary force, could we build a large replenishment ship with a maintenance module and deep magazines to refill these launchers?
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Jul 21, 2020 02:27
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somehow i feel like we're going to wind up with a fleet of missile-pod dreadnoughts and boxlauncher-armed fast attack craft the likes of which would make manticore proud
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Jul 21, 2020 02:39
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Pirate Radar posted:Does a ship-based maintenance module count for this? If we had to send ships with box launchers far out as part of an expeditionary force, could we build a large replenishment ship with a maintenance module and deep magazines to refill these launchers? Actually not maintenance modules. Military hanger, spaceport, ordnance transfer installation, or ship with ordnance transfer module. So yes, you can build a reloader ship, the reloading is just done by dedicated systems. Non hanger reloading has 10X penalty on reloading speed
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Jul 21, 2020 02:42
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Telsa Cola posted:I'd reaaally rather not dominate the game that way. OP is going to make sure ships are reasonable enough to have a fighting chance against the NPR and thats good enough for me. Ack, sorry.. I confused you for Virtual Russian for some reason. I meant thread comes up with doctrine via goon hivemind, OP makes the ships that fit the doctrine.
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Jul 21, 2020 10:32
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Drone posted:Ack, sorry.. I confused you for Virtual Russian for some reason. I meant thread comes up with doctrine via goon hivemind, OP makes the ships that fit the doctrine. I like sourcing designs directly from goons, and would like to continue that way for now. However, I do have a standing offer that people can describe what they want to see in a ship as best they can and then I will make the ship as faithfully as I can. My hope is that can allow people to participate in shipbuilding without needing to understand the designer and all the details of the game.
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Jul 21, 2020 12:47
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EclecticTastes posted:Believe me, I won't. When we build this I hope we name it the GTVA Collosus edit: Also, B, A, A. Broken Box fucked around with this message at 15:01 on Jul 21, 2020 |
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Jul 21, 2020 14:50
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Virtual Russian posted:thanks for the feedback, and here a WIP of something I'm working on. This would be a cool content addition, I support it.
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Jul 21, 2020 17:08
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For choosing ships I chose A,A,B first two cuz armor and b cuz it looks nice Also dorf me as a commander on one of these new vessels, whatever they are. Especially a surveyor cuz I was born to die
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Jul 21, 2020 20:31
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I'll end the vote in a couple hours. Does anyone know if story characters can still die in combat? I'd like to preserve that, but stopping death by accident/retirement would be good.
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Jul 21, 2020 21:11
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LLSix posted:Oh, I didn't even notice the non-box launchers. That makes the design much more interesting than I thought it was. Foxfire_ posted:You have to be either docked in a hanger or at someplace with maintenance facilities (which has a reload speed penalty). Aswan gets one salvo with its 3 box launchers, then future shots only use the 13 reloadable tubes. I figured the box ones were there to use up some otherwise empty tonnage. For more explanation on the thought process here, the Endeavour has a ton of box launchers because her armament is intended as a "OH poo poo AN ENEMY!" thing, where they flush and run away. I put a few reloadable tubes on there, but those are more of a "one or two small ships pursuing" kind of thing. The Aswan rips out most of the box launchers for reloadable tubes, but retains three boxes because they take up less space than a 14th reloadable. Radio Free Kobold posted:somehow i feel like we're going to wind up with a fleet of missile-pod dreadnoughts and boxlauncher-armed fast attack craft the likes of which would make manticore proud Missile pods don't work in Aurora very well. You still have to crew the parasite, and there's no data-sharing for fire control, so you'd have to include that on each pod. This means you can't cram enough tubes onto any reasonable parasite pod for a drop-and-dump to be worthwhile. Other than that, the similarity you're seeing is no surprise. Both works are descended from the tabletop game Starfire.
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Jul 21, 2020 21:53
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the USS Fearvomit
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Jul 21, 2020 22:19
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Still wanna know how quiet we can make a spinal beam ship. Shanker-class
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Jul 21, 2020 23:11
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It would take us quite a while to research up to the point where a dedicated spinal beam ship would be meaningfully powerful/effective. At our current tech level a spinal beam ship would be akin to a fast attack craft. Doesn't mean we can't head in that direction.
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Jul 21, 2020 23:16
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Oh hell yeah Sign me up as a naval officer of some kind, please.
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Jul 22, 2020 01:29
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Virtual Russian posted:It would take us quite a while to research up to the point where a dedicated spinal beam ship would be meaningfully powerful/effective. At our current tech level a spinal beam ship would be akin to a fast attack craft. Doesn't mean we can't head in that direction. Just fluff it as a bomb pumped laser and act surprised any time the little daredevils survive a single salvo.
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Jul 22, 2020 01:37
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Make me a naval officer or administrator, safer than being a scientist that's for certain.
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Jul 22, 2020 01:43
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Ship Production Voting Results 1. Survey Vessels B. - We will be building LLsix’s Opportunity class Deep Space Survey Ship. 2. Warships B. - We will be building Foxfire’s strike group, the Kobold class Missile Destroyer and Wyvern class Scout Frigate. 3. Colony Ships There was a tie between LLSix's designs. I'm going to produce the Completely Ethical class Colony Ship as it is most useful to our colonization efforts at the moment. If there is no objection I will tool our other yard to also produce the Sufficient class Colony Ship. I'll likely aim to produce 3 of each class. A. - LLSix’s Completely Ethical class Colony Ship. B. - LLSix’s Sufficient class Colony Ship. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ LLsix cleans up, gaining two extra votes to be spent at will. Foxfire also gains an extra vote to be spent at will. (please quote these when spending them, thanks) ChaseSP posted:Make me a naval officer or administrator, safer than being a scientist that's for certain. You are in as a naval officer. LostCosmonaut posted:Oh hell yeah Got you in. DelilahFlowers posted:For choosing ships I chose A,A,B first two cuz armor and b cuz it looks nice You are in. I think i'm all caught up dorfin people. Let me know if I missed you.
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Jul 22, 2020 02:07
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