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Furnaceface posted:Its a warning for how fragile it still is in its current early state. I think they are trying to warn you how quickly it can be erased, by both parties, if you let your guard down. no, what they're really doing is what many people on this forum have done, which is to handwave away life changing electoral progress because it doesn't pass some imagined ideological or circumstantial purity test, which is gross when that progress has come about in no small part due to the efforts of posters on this forum. and its especially stupid when many of these people so quick to criticize don't live in virginia, let alone the us!
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Jul 30, 2020 22:01
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Disnesquick posted:The fact that you think people are trying to tear you down, rather than help you, blows my mind. Yes, the message of telling activists that have busted their rear end and physical health to change things for the better that "Actually, you are only tilting at windmills because the centrist boogeyman is going to pop out go BOO and ruin everything forever and ever. You should give into despair because its easier" is totally a helpful thing. It completely doesn't attempt to invalidate all the good work and concrete tangible progress made by said activists and isn't disingenuous at all. You are not a serious person and no one should ever take you seriously.
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Jul 30, 2020 22:02
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punishedkissinger posted:he was just asking questions ok he did say he was JAQing off
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Jul 30, 2020 22:02
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Seven Hundred Bee posted:perhaps british politics - which operates under an entirely different electoral system - and has significantly different parties which significantly different values, interests and challenges (for example, the inability of labour to have a cohesive brexit position because of internal political conflicts between different wings of the party) is not a useful example for state level american politics fair enough
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Jul 30, 2020 22:02
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punishedkissinger posted:he was just asking questions ok Totally wasn't Trump thinking he had a brilliant idea of "If I'm polling so badly, why don't I just postpone the election? Maybe indefinitely! Bing bong, so simple." Edit: I don't understand punctuation. Velocity Raptor fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Jul 30, 2020 |
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Jul 30, 2020 22:02
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Oh word, what happened in the fourth year?
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Jul 30, 2020 22:03
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twice burned ice posted:Please explain an actual viable path for a newly formed party to win seats in a first-past-the-post system. Yes and it's the same fact that activists have had to deal with over in the UK, and exactly the same issue keeps coming up, because every attempt to form a new party just falls flat. The two countries are locked into a very similar dynamic with lesser-evilism being pushed at anyone who wants actual change. We saw exactly what lay behind that mask though, when the progressive wing of the party actually won leadership. Every attempt at compromise, or reconciliation, was met with back-stabbing or goal-post moving. Any slip-up was immediately built into a monument to the failure of progressiveness and finally... The antisemitism thing. What didn't make it into any kind of media, domestic or otherwise, was how badly that has ripped families apart: That's how far they were willing to go. What's the take-home of this? The UK progressives were naive and didn't understand just how much damage the "moderates" were willing to do in order to prevent a left-wing victory. "Reaching across the aisle" just didn't work and no matter how much activists pleaded with leadership, the message was always one of capitulation to a group that had no desire to win under a progressive platform. Everyone who thinks that electoralism is a viable path to progress should really have a good look into what happened and why it worked because the exact same playbook gets rolled out over here too. friendbot2000 posted:Yes, the message of telling activists that have busted their rear end and physical health to change things for the better that "Actually, you are only tilting at windmills because the centrist boogeyman is going to pop out go BOO and ruin everything forever and ever. You should give into despair because its easier" is totally a helpful thing. It completely doesn't attempt to invalidate all the good work and concrete tangible progress made by said activists and isn't disingenuous at all. You are not a serious person and no one should ever take you seriously. How about you stop arguing with a cariacture of me.
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Jul 30, 2020 22:03
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"was" is doing a LOT of work in that sentence.
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Jul 30, 2020 22:04
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I love you Friendbot2000 and though I don’t participate much, I’m always eager for your updates, and they always fill me with renewed hope and resolve. Doubtless lots of other lurkers feel similarly.
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Jul 30, 2020 22:04
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friendbot2000 posted:Yes, the message of telling activists that have busted their rear end and physical health to change things for the better that "Actually, you are only tilting at windmills because the centrist boogeyman is going to pop out go BOO and ruin everything forever and ever. You should give into despair because its easier" is totally a helpful thing. It completely doesn't attempt to invalidate all the good work and concrete tangible progress made by said activists and isn't disingenuous at all. You are not a serious person and no one should ever take you seriously. That and "Don't trust Obama's word for it just because giid state level stuff is happening" are distinct points. I only see the latter in response to you currently.
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Jul 30, 2020 22:05
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Mr Ice Cream Glove posted:Looks like this might be topic of 5pm press thing WTF? This is completely a First Amendment violation. What the gently caress are they thinking?
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Jul 30, 2020 22:06
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Fritz Coldcockin posted:I wish he'd been able to do it in his eight years, but I'll chalk it up to naivete and a more conservative electorate + a much more robust Blue Dog caucus. Chalking the actions of the President of the USA up to naivete is so stupid I can't even be charitable enough to chalk it up to naivete.
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Jul 30, 2020 22:08
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TRUMP Is trying to get 400 MILLION dollars to renovate the white house as part of the covid package.
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Jul 30, 2020 22:10
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Disnesquick posted:Yes and it's the same fact that activists have had to deal with over in the UK, and exactly the same issue keeps coming up, because every attempt to form a new party just falls flat. The two countries are locked into a very similar dynamic with lesser-evilism being pushed at anyone who wants actual change. We saw exactly what lay behind that mask though, when the progressive wing of the party actually won leadership. Every attempt at compromise, or reconciliation, was met with back-stabbing or goal-post moving. Any slip-up was immediately built into a monument to the failure of progressiveness and finally... The antisemitism thing. What didn't make it into any kind of media, domestic or otherwise, was how badly that has ripped families apart: That's how far they were willing to go. What's the take-home of this? The UK progressives were naive and didn't understand just how much damage the "moderates" were willing to do in order to prevent a left-wing victory. "Reaching across the aisle" just didn't work and no matter how much activists pleaded with leadership, the message was always one of capitulation to a group that had no desire to win under a progressive platform. Everyone who thinks that electoralism is a viable path to progress should really have a good look into what happened and why it worked because the exact same playbook gets rolled out over here too. To be frank how about explaining your actual position clearly and why it's different from friend-bots idea of you? Is her work actually worthwhile to you? and if so how does that reconcile with your anti-electorailsit stance? Is because electoralism just means "don't just elect the right people. Get in on the streets to your repetitiveness [i]and[//i] get good people elected" rather than viewing getting people elected as pointless no matter what.
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Jul 30, 2020 22:11
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TheOneAndOnlyT posted:Indeed, complete silence, except for the part where numerous GOP senators, including Mitch McConnell, were directly asked about this, and they said, explicitly, "no, we aren't delaying the election." Total silence. He got the video up pretty quick. Smart move for a journalist trying to build brand, makes it sound like he's leading the call for sanity and the rule of law. Which he kinda is.
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Jul 30, 2020 22:12
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Djarum posted:WTF? This is completely a First Amendment violation. What the gently caress are they thinking? They don’t actually give a poo poo about the constitution, op. It’s just performative bullshit.
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Jul 30, 2020 22:13
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Disnesquick posted:Yes and it's the same fact that activists have had to deal with over in the UK, and exactly the same issue keeps coming up, because every attempt to form a new party just falls flat. The two countries are locked into a very similar dynamic with lesser-evilism being pushed at anyone who wants actual change. We saw exactly what lay behind that mask though, when the progressive wing of the party actually won leadership. Every attempt at compromise, or reconciliation, was met with back-stabbing or goal-post moving. Any slip-up was immediately built into a monument to the failure of progressiveness and finally... The antisemitism thing. What didn't make it into any kind of media, domestic or otherwise, was how badly that has ripped families apart: That's how far they were willing to go. What's the take-home of this? The UK progressives were naive and didn't understand just how much damage the "moderates" were willing to do in order to prevent a left-wing victory. "Reaching across the aisle" just didn't work and no matter how much activists pleaded with leadership, the message was always one of capitulation to a group that had no desire to win under a progressive platform. Everyone who thinks that electoralism is a viable path to progress should really have a good look into what happened and why it worked because the exact same playbook gets rolled out over here too. Can you see though how, from our end, it's easy to become frustrated when you have nothing to contribute to the discussion besides "nah we tried that, doesn't work". I mean you know full well that direct action has many many ways it can fail too, so what is your actual advice besides "watch out!"
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Jul 30, 2020 22:15
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Althair posted:I love you Friendbot2000 and though I don’t participate much, I’m always eager for your updates, and they always fill me with renewed hope and resolve. Doubtless lots of other lurkers feel similarly.  Get involved in your local Democratic Party politics. Don't give in to nihilism or accelerationism.
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Jul 30, 2020 22:21
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How are u posted:
Getting involved in your local Democratic party is the fastest road to reach nihilism
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Jul 30, 2020 22:25
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John Wick of Dogs posted:Getting involved in your local Democratic party is the fastest road to reach nihilism Check out their posts in the Protest Voting thread, then decide if you ever want to respond to them again. My recommendation is to put them on ignore, but I can still see their posts when others quote them.
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Jul 30, 2020 22:27
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Dehumanize yourself and face to political activism.
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Jul 30, 2020 22:27
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:It's tragic that Herman Cain Died, however I fully expect more GOP top people to drop dead in the next few weeks. And the narrative will continue to dissuade people from wearing masks because the ship must go on. Hopefully isolating enough of the moderate base to make a nice big sexy wave. Why is it tragic? He was a piece of poo poo who shunned science in favor of downplaying the effects of the virus to feed Trump’s narcissism. Cain joked about not wearing a mask while he was high risk from covid complications and attended a super spreader event.. We’re in this poo poo directly because of assholes like Cain, Trump, and his lunatic base.
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Jul 30, 2020 22:27
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Rockit posted:To be frank how about explaining your actual position clearly and why it's different from friend-bots idea of you? I'm not anti-electoralist, in the sense that I believe electoralism is one aspect that a progressive movement can use to achieve change but is useless without the really important stuff (my main point of contention is the idea that you replace the president and things will be "back to normal"). Friend-bot has been ascribing a large amount of nihilism and positions to me that are, to be utterly frank, a complete loving fabrication. Hey, I didn't even start this little spat: I was responding to someone saying that the US progressive movement could learn a lot from the failure of the left in the UK and here we are. My position is that any progressive movement needs to understand exactly what it is up against. Incrementalism across the globe, for the last forty years, has been in one direction. It's one step forward and two steps back. Progressives think they need to be cautious and tread slowly: Hell, there was a comment here saying pretty much that Corbyn tried too much, too quickly. The hard right have no such illusion and are willing to burn things down unless they are indulged because they know that the pendulum won't swing back as far as they've moved it. Unless progressives are willing to really stand up for what they believe, rather than putting their faith in a mythical "sensible" centrism, then I don't see how that dynamic can be escaped. Whilst I say that, I do believe that electoralism really is now dead in the UK, at least for the medium-term, because every time anyone remotely left puts their head above ground it's for the chop with a well-practised set of messages. That's also an important lesson to carry over here because we learned that you only really get one proper shot at this, and if it fails, then the attack lines will be ingrained enough into the common consciousness that you'll be on the back foot for a long while, probably a generation. Progressives need to make sure that they have a hell of a lot of community-level connection and support before they launch their takeover, because otherwise their message is going to get over-written by a media behemoth.
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Jul 30, 2020 22:28
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Djarum posted:WTF? This is completely a First Amendment violation. What the gently caress are they thinking? Simple: That they can get away with it. In any case: quote:clarify that Section 230 does not permit social media companies that alter or editorialize users’ speech to escape civil liability If anything, what this does is effectively make moderation illegal, not censor speech. (unless you consider moderation a form of speech). Aramis fucked around with this message at 22:34 on Jul 30, 2020 |
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Jul 30, 2020 22:28
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Djarum posted:WTF? This is completely a First Amendment violation. What the gently caress are they thinking? You cannot possibly be this naive
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Jul 30, 2020 22:29
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I see we're back in the cycle of the idle, Ted Ralls of the world telling people who actually do progressive political activism that their efforts are in vain or don't count because reasons. Almost like they're saying "better things aren't possible" 
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Jul 30, 2020 22:29
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Disnesquick posted:Yes and it's the same fact that activists have had to deal with over in the UK, and exactly the same issue keeps coming up, because every attempt to form a new party just falls flat. The two countries are locked into a very similar dynamic with lesser-evilism being pushed at anyone who wants actual change. We saw exactly what lay behind that mask though, when the progressive wing of the party actually won leadership. Every attempt at compromise, or reconciliation, was met with back-stabbing or goal-post moving. Any slip-up was immediately built into a monument to the failure of progressiveness and finally... The antisemitism thing. What didn't make it into any kind of media, domestic or otherwise, was how badly that has ripped families apart: That's how far they were willing to go. What's the take-home of this? The UK progressives were naive and didn't understand just how much damage the "moderates" were willing to do in order to prevent a left-wing victory. "Reaching across the aisle" just didn't work and no matter how much activists pleaded with leadership, the message was always one of capitulation to a group that had no desire to win under a progressive platform. Everyone who thinks that electoralism is a viable path to progress should really have a good look into what happened and why it worked because the exact same playbook gets rolled out over here too. alternatively: you got loving shithoused and are making excuses about a stab in the back
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Jul 30, 2020 22:31
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Glumwheels posted:Why is it tragic? He was a piece of poo poo who shunned science in favor of downplaying the effects of the virus to feed Trump’s narcissism. Cain joked about not wearing a mask while he was high risk from covid complications and attended a super spreader event.. Yeah, it's not tragic when bad guys die. There's no way to track the stats on it, but Cain's actions have literally encouraged others to die. He's a murderer by proxy. On the opposite end of "it's tragic" my mantra is that all conservatives are either stupid or lying. Always. No exceptions. There's literally no explanation for anything they say or do. Cain was grifter so my label for him is liar, easily. I hope that as he spent that last month of his wretched life in that hospital bed, probably not even being able to see family because that's how Covid treatment works*, that he reflected through his own personal honesty to himself in his unavoidable inner dialog that he was wrong, hurt others, can't see his family, and will die any day. Oh, and he was fairly important in the 90s for preventing access to healthcare for his employees and the nation at large because it would cost too much money for businesses and he wanted more profit. He threatened that he'd have to fire them if healthcare was passed. More ruined lives there. *since he's loaded as gently caress his privilege probably enabled him to see family. The Sean fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Jul 30, 2020 |
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Jul 30, 2020 22:32
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https://twitter.com/JordanUhl/status/1288883776395923457?s=19
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Jul 30, 2020 22:33
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Djarum posted:WTF? This is completely a First Amendment violation. What the gently caress are they thinking? They're thinking "what are you going to do about it"
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Jul 30, 2020 22:34
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Disnesquick posted:I'm not anti-electoralist, in the sense that I believe electoralism is one aspect that a progressive movement can use to achieve change but is useless without the really important stuff (my main point of contention is the idea that you replace the president and things will be "back to normal"). Friend-bot has been ascribing a large amount of nihilism and positions to me that are, to be utterly frank, a complete loving fabrication. Hey, I didn't even start this little spat: I was responding to someone saying that the US progressive movement could learn a lot from the failure of the left in the UK and here we are. Thank you so much for clarifying. My condolences on your country's situation and i wish you luck. evilweasel posted:alternatively: you got loving shithoused and are making excuses about a stab in the back
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Jul 30, 2020 22:34
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Disnesquick posted:(my main point of contention is the idea that you replace the president and things will be "back to normal"). I get where you're coming from on a lot of what you're saying here, but complaining so much about being strawmanned and then saying this as if anyone here believes it is A loving Lot
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Jul 30, 2020 22:34
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Remember when the Army literally released a video game as a recruiting tool? It was called America’s Army and it was pretty good!
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Jul 30, 2020 22:34
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Corbyn ran one of the most incompetent campaigns in modern political history, up there with Dukakis. I'm completely gobsmacked that anyone can argue with a straight face that the reason he lost was rat-loving and not his own general incompetence and failure to understand the electorate.  Shockingly, people don't want someone with a <30% approval rating even if they don't like the other guy. source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2019_United_Kingdom_general_election and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leadership_approval_opinion_polling_for_the_2019_United_Kingdom_general_election I mean, I'm not that surprised though because it would require people to realize that just Being Most Leftist isn't the solution
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Jul 30, 2020 22:35
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evilweasel posted:alternatively: you got loving shithoused and are making excuses about a stab in the back Corbyn's Labour did better in 2017 than the Blairites have in a decade of losing to the Conservatives, so you're oversimplifying just a tad here
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Jul 30, 2020 22:35
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Flying-PCP posted:Can you see though how, from our end, it's easy to become frustrated when you have nothing to contribute to the discussion besides "nah we tried that, doesn't work". I mean you know full well that direct action has many many ways it can fail too, so what is your actual advice besides "watch out!" Honestly? I'd say: don't assume that your ideas will prevail, just because they happen to be the correct ones and there's a lot of optimistic people pushing for them to happen. There's an established power base of people who hate your ideas and will go to almost any lengths to prevent them being put into action. Those people are utterly ruthless and will fight dirty to defeat you. Trying to compromise with the 'moderate centrists' will always fail because they loathe you far more than they loathe the Republicans. You need to be aware that they're your immediate enemy and battle them relentlessly because they will remorselessly slaughter you if you do anything else. I'm a left-wing UK Labour supporter who went through the painful experience of seeing how Sensible Liberals behaved the moment their cozy consensus was threatened by people who actually wanted to change things. I'm still shocked even now by the utter cynicism and relentlessness that they displayed. I honestly admire the hard work and hope for the future that many of you are displaying - just please never underestimate how much you're hated by many people who you'd think would be mostly on your side, or the lengths to which they'll go to crush you.
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Jul 30, 2020 22:40
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Terminal autist posted:
as someone with disibilities, mods please rename my username BadFaith Cripple because apparently thats an easy excuse. Dick Trauma posted:Sweet Baby Jesus. is this the speech?
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Jul 30, 2020 22:41
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Dapper_Swindler posted:as someone with disibilities, mods please rename my username BadFaith Cripple because apparently thats an easy excuse. Wait did Trump already talk?
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Jul 30, 2020 22:42
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Wait did Trump already talk? no, he just started now. he is making excuses for his gently caress ups now.
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Jul 30, 2020 22:43
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 https://twitter.com/KaivanShroff/status/1288943685627936770?s=20
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