|
ikanreed posted:I had an idea about the surprise new ally character hinted at in the commentary of utterly dwarfed. I had a similar thought rereading Start of Darkness, but you’re right, the page count doesn’t match. I wouldn’t be surprised if she shows up, though. I’m still of the opinion that Haley’s mom is the one-page ally - we still need to resolve the other way Haley is an opposite of Sabine, along with the cryptogrammed “It turns out I may not be exactly what you would call-“ secret. With that, I like the theory that Haley is actually half-celestial and her “Mommy went to heaven” line is a little more literal.
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2020 05:13
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 28, 2024 04:24 |
|
|
ikanreed posted:Trying to mix cultural relativism with absolute cosmic good and evil is a fools errand. Tongue in cheek, of course: when you Godwin it together and realize that would mean that Hitler, from a Nazi point of view, was really good at being a Nazi, so therefore he should end up in a lawful good afterlife? Maybe just scrap alignment all together.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2020 05:15
|
|
|
Certainly it had it's place in justifying mass murder in a game designed around the mechanics of mass murder.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2020 05:26
|
|
|
Rich makes as good a case for it as can reasonably be made. Think about the order, who all have well drawn personalities. How closely related to their alignments are those personalities? I'd say very close.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2020 05:28
|
|
|
Capfalcon posted:For sure. You can have Discworld or Lord of the Rings. They're both great! But if the Balrog would have been good if he was raised by a nice, Eru-fearing set of parents, it sort of loses some of the impact of Gandalf identifying himself as a servant of Eru and proclaiming that the Balrog's dark flame will have no purchase here due to the divine mandate that Gandalf bears. Tolkien is a weird one because while LotR pretty much codified always evil races in fantasy fiction, his earlier The Hobbit handled moral relativism just fine with the mountain goblins being basically just dwarves of another tribe. Captain Oblivious posted:Alignment is roleplaying training wheels to help people find their niche. It falls apart under deep scrutiny but in most games where it is employed deep scrutiny was never going to happen in the first place. It was used for that at one point, but (iirc) it's original use goes back to those random tables that were brought up earlier. It was meant to determine how likely a random encounter was to be hostile to the party.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2020 05:29
|
|
|
If by “at one point” you mean “the majority of the game’s life and also right now in the real world as opposed to navel gazing hypotheticals” yeah lol
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2020 05:32
|
|
|
Schwarzwald posted:Tolkien is a weird one because while LotR pretty much codified always evil races in fantasy fiction, his earlier The Hobbit handled moral relativism just fine with the mountain goblins being basically just dwarves of another tribe. that was a reaction roll, I don't remember it being alignment related, let me check... http://deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2010/08/reaction-tables.html looks like the earliest versions of D&D had it as a consideration, but not in an organised way just as an excuse to add some unspecified modifiers.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2020 05:33
|
|
|
Also alignment didn't really mean the same thing in older editions of D&D, where Law-Chaos is more of the 'forces of civilization vs forces of entropy/destruction' thing that was popular in a lot of fantasy fiction of the say. You still see those influences in stuff like Warhammer.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2020 05:57
|
|
|
fool of sound posted:Also alignment didn't really mean the same thing in older editions of D&D, where Law-Chaos is more of the 'forces of civilization vs forces of entropy/destruction' thing that was popular in a lot of fantasy fiction of the say. You still see those influences in stuff like Warhammer. But also gygax's own writing makes it clear he was suuuuuper racist about it
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2020 06:00
|
|
|
ikanreed posted:But also gygax's own writing makes it clear he was suuuuuper racist about it Oh for sure. You also see THOSE influences in things like Warhammer.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2020 06:02
|
|
|
My recollection about D&D alignment was that it got its start as something from the 1971 Chainmail pre-D&D miniatures rules, and that was simply to give some thematic quality and diversity to the army lists. The original alignment system was just law-neutrality-chaos taken straight from Moorcock, and it was (as fool of sound said) more of an order vs. entropy thing. It would be many, many years before Gygax added a second axis (good-neutral-evil) to alignment, with all that that entailed. 
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2020 06:22
|
|
|
Anyway, the only good alignment system ever created was from FREEBASE, the LARP version of the HOL rpg.quote:ALIGNMENT
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2020 06:25
|
|
|
Captain Oblivious posted:If by “at one point” you mean “the majority of the game’s life and also right now in the real world as opposed to navel gazing hypotheticals” yeah lol Well, no, the alignment has been vestigial for years, and before that its main use was to determine who Paladins could kill without risking their toys. WotC would have dropped it already if they weren't terrified of Paizo, and if the recent hubbub is anything to go by, they still might. sebmojo posted:that was a reaction roll, I don't remember it being alignment related, let me check... That sounds about right. It might have been a bigger factor in Chainmail, but back then there was only the Law/Chaos axis. edit: beaten on the Chainmail thing Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 06:31 on Aug 11, 2020 |
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2020 06:28
|
|
|
ikanreed posted:But also gygax's own writing makes it clear he was suuuuuper racist about it What's this?
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2020 06:33
|
|
|
I think it's possible to do some interesting things with a setting where there's intrinsic Good and Evil metaphysical forces at play, that aren't necessarily the same things that we mortals think of as good and evil. It can be fun in a bizarro world sense to have characters like the necromancer that's willingly tainting his soul with metaphysical Evil raising zombies in order to achieve good ends. Or the rear end in a top hat paladin that holds strictly to the letter of Good specifically in order to keep his powers, while caring nothing for the morality behind his actions. But I don't think most people using alignment care about exploring the weirdness inherent to such a setting, which is where alignment loses all value. In my opinion, anyway.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2020 06:35
|
|
|
It feels like the alignment system has been vestigial to DnD since 3e, where it was mainly used to pad out the spell lists. It was its main purpose mechanically, anyway.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2020 06:54
|
|
|
Just think of them as sports teams. Team Good vs. Team Evil. Affiliating yourself with one team or the other says nothing about ethics. That reminds me of MUDs. A common way to determine player alignment was what things you killed. If you kill mostly Evil things then you are Good. If you kill mostly Good things you're Evil. If you want to be Neutral you might have to go slaughter an orphanage from time to time to "maintain the balance" if you've been killing too many monsters. In that system basically all the heroes are murderous sociopaths.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2020 06:58
|
|
|
Colonel Cool posted:I think it's possible to do some interesting things with a setting where there's intrinsic Good and Evil metaphysical forces at play, that aren't necessarily the same things that we mortals think of as good and evil. It can be fun in a bizarro world sense to have characters like the necromancer that's willingly tainting his soul with metaphysical Evil raising zombies in order to achieve good ends. Or the rear end in a top hat paladin that holds strictly to the letter of Good specifically in order to keep his powers, while caring nothing for the morality behind his actions. In Touhou there's this thing called the Ministry of Right and Wrong which governs the afterlives, but they aren't like an intrinsic part of it, they just sort of took over the planes that souls drift to when they die and decided to sort them out manually. And their morals are kinda weird like "it is Good for humans to die, for if humans do not die then their souls can never be judged. Therefore it is Evil for humans to extend their lifespans" or "it is Good for monsters cause mayhem, for that is their Purpose and to go against their Purpose is Evil." Mostly it gets played as this bizarre bureaucracy where Heaven is refusing to accept new applicants because it would lower their property values and Hell had to vacate and move elsewhere because they went bankrupt. Like, no one in the series actually believes in that morality, but those are the people who decide where your soul goes, so... Clarste fucked around with this message at 08:43 on Aug 11, 2020 |
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2020 08:39
|
|
|
Nilbop posted:What's this? So...Gygax unapologetically stated that it was Good to genocide your enemies, even and especially the civilians among them. Because "nits make lice". This was a quote from John Chivington, perpetrator of the Sand Creek massacre, who managed to be so horrible in 1864 that the US Army (no stranger to Native American genocide themselves) officially condemned him. And just in case you didn't know the context about that quote, Gygax made sure to cite it on glowing terms. He was doing all this to say that it was fine to kill orc babies in 2005. The more you read about Gygax the more you understand that he was a deeply loathsome man and that D&D's success was very much in spite of him.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2020 09:11
|
|
|
FMguru posted:The original alignment system was just law-neutrality-chaos taken straight from Moorcock Straight from Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions actually, which is why it's called Law instead of Order as in Moorcock. Nilbop posted:What's this? Gygax is our racist grandpa. You know, the guy who handmade cool toys he gave you so you love him, but then when he opens his mouth at dinner it's non-stop embarrassing racist rambling. Cat Mattress fucked around with this message at 09:58 on Aug 11, 2020 |
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2020 09:55
|
|
|
Cat Mattress posted:Straight from Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions actually, which is why it's called Law instead of Order as in Moorcock. moorcock used law and chaos quote:Gygax is our racist grandpa. You know, the guy who handmade cool toys he gave you so you love him, but then when he opens his mouth at dinner it's non-stop embarrassing racist rambling. Gygax is and has always been terrible, we were just too young and too fuckin nerdy to notice I will stan for tomb of horrors as his masterpiece though, that thing is tight as a drum
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2020 10:00
|
|
|
Cat Mattress posted:Straight from Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions actually, which is why it's called Law instead of Order as in Moorcock. Oh you mean the guy I cut out my life because he's a tremendous piece of poo poo? Yeah gently caress that guy
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2020 11:42
|
|
|
Daikloktos posted:First of all, I want to say we have an excellent Tolkien Thread in The Book Barn which, like Lothlorien itself, feels like the last vestige of a more ancient time of effort and expertise on these forums. They'd be able to explain better than I the evolution of Tolkien's precise feelings on this matter alongside the development of his legendarium but it is, famously, among the last indecisive revisions to The Silmarillion material that he struggled with these exact questions and whether even Melkor himself might find redemption before the end of time. I definitely agree with your overall point of "You shouldn't take a work's world and values at face value," and I think your example is a good one. (Also, although I don't post in it, I greatly enjoy reading the Tolkien thread.) Captain Oblivious posted:The post(s) that kicked this off aren't talking about "works" they're talking about games. Alignment is a tool for a game first and foremost. You're not really comparing apples to apples. I think this is a bit mistaken, though, since D&D is a written work (that tells you how to play a game) and gives you a baseline set of assumptions for that world you're playing in. If you have orc be evil monsters you can kill without regret while also having orcs be a possible player character, it's not exactly strict scrutiny to ask "Wait, why are they bad and you good?" Also, I sort of question the value of training wheels that don't give you anything interesting to do with them, other than examine them and learn how flawed they actually are. Clarste posted:In Touhou there's this thing called the Ministry of Right and Wrong which governs the afterlives, but they aren't like an intrinsic part of it, they just sort of took over the planes that souls drift to when they die and decided to sort them out manually. And their morals are kinda weird like "it is Good for humans to die, for if humans do not die then their souls can never be judged. Therefore it is Evil for humans to extend their lifespans" or "it is Good for monsters cause mayhem, for that is their Purpose and to go against their Purpose is Evil." Mostly it gets played as this bizarre bureaucracy where Heaven is refusing to accept new applicants because it would lower their property values and Hell had to vacate and move elsewhere because they went bankrupt. I unironically think that if they replaced alignment with essentially a team affiliation like this, it'd not only be much simpler, but much more interesting.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2020 13:18
|
|
|
MildShow posted:I’m still of the opinion that Haley’s mom is the one-page ally - we still need to resolve the other way Haley is an opposite of Sabine, along with the cryptogrammed “It turns out I may not be exactly what you would call-“ secret. With that, I like the theory that Haley is actually half-celestial and her “Mommy went to heaven” line is a little more literal. The problem with that theory is that Haley's mom's one appearance is her dying (772. That could be a misdirection, but if so it's a pretty good one.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2020 13:51
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/1293174291509514240
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2020 14:19
|
|
|
Redcloak gets owned twice in a round
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2020 14:22
|
|
|
Oh hey Redcloak wasn't imploding himself.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2020 14:25
|
|
|
Sometimes things play out in an entirely straightforward way.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2020 14:27
|
|
|
Man, Belkar is really being a great team player if he's taught Durkon of all people how to dunk on someone that hard.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2020 14:29
|
|
|
Some poetic license here for the rules. Implode can't target the same creature two rounds in one casting. He either made his save or didn't.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2020 14:29
|
|
|
Who What Now posted:Oh hey Redcloak wasn't imploding himself. Unbelievable.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2020 14:29
|
|
|
Wow, Minrah can cast fifth level cleric spells. Her spell choices at Firmament made me think she had significantly fewer cleric levels than fighter or whatever.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2020 14:40
|
|
|
Gwyneth Palpate posted:Wow, Minrah can cast fifth level cleric spells. Her spell choices at Firmament made me think she had significantly fewer cleric levels than fighter or whatever. Is it possible she got absurd amounts of xp thanks to the high stakes of that last adventure? Not that it matters to the story, but it's a fun thing to think through. This strip rules. Good to see Redcloak getting wrecked emotionally.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2020 14:41
|
|
|
Wittgen posted:This strip rules. Good to see Redcloak getting wrecked emotionally. Yeah. Durkon's line might stick in Redcloak's craw for a while.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2020 14:43
|
|
|
She's Fighter 5+/Cleric 9+, which actually gives her more hit dice than Durkon apparently has. Also, Redcloak's homebrew Implosion apparently causes damage even on a successful save.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2020 14:54
|
|
|
Gwyneth Palpate posted:Wow, Minrah can cast fifth level cleric spells. Her spell choices at Firmament made me think she had significantly fewer cleric levels than fighter or whatever. Enlarge person is first level. I thought thor's might was a reskinned enlarge person.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2020 14:55
|
|
|
Who What Now posted:Oh hey Redcloak wasn't imploding himself. Or at an off panel threat Or an on panel invisible threat
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2020 14:57
|
|
|
ikanreed posted:Enlarge person is first level. I thought thor's might was a reskinned enlarge person. Nah, it's Righteous Might. It's got the bit about not changing your speed. e: Oh, Enlarge Person also has that bit. I still think it's Righteous Might though. Gwyneth Palpate fucked around with this message at 15:02 on Aug 11, 2020 |
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2020 14:59
|
|
|
ikanreed posted:I had an idea about the surprise new ally character hinted at in the commentary of utterly dwarfed. I think it's entirely possible that Rich missed the other appearance. Same for Aarindarius, V's master. Normally Rich is pretty careful about these things, but a hint in the commentary at the end of the book is not likely to be something he checked carefully.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2020 15:03
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 28, 2024 04:24 |
|
|
 , Durkon
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2020 15:11
|
|
