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RahXephon was my favorite anime in the late00's. Dunno where I'd put it now but it's still gorgeous, thought-provoking and eminently watchable and cool. The first four eps are a tad slow, granted. It's really one of those shows where the appeal becomes loud and clear once the larger cast arrives.
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Aug 14, 2020 05:53
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Pootybutt posted:RahXephon was my favorite anime in the late00's. Dunno where I'd put it now but it's still gorgeous, thought-provoking and eminently watchable and cool. The first four eps are a tad slow, granted. It's really one of those shows where the appeal becomes loud and clear once the larger cast arrives. I have almost the exact opposite opinion. The first four eps are slow, but they presented some neat mysteries and had a cool horror vibe with the floating singing kaiju that no one acknowledged. Then Ayato is taken out of Tokyo Jupiter and the plot stops for a dozen episodes so the show can do goofy harem stuff. It doesn't really get good again until after Ayato, Quon and the robot ditch the larger cast. I dunno. It got a lot of undeserved hatred back-in-the-day, and I don't dislike it, but on the whole I think it was a very average show that couldn't fully capitalize on it's good ideas. The fact that Gridman SSSS exists and is pretty much the better RahXephon doesn't help, either. That being said, "Blue Friend - Ticket To Nowhere" is one of the best episodes of any mecha show of its decade.
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Aug 14, 2020 06:34
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i think that ayato needed to spend that time doing monsters of the week to set up a status quo. otherwise, how was he going to rebel against that status quo? most of those episodes weren't anything special, but they provided setup and okay giant robot fights. if the padding in the anime is too much there's also the rahxephon manga, which is very short and goes in a much different direction.
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Aug 14, 2020 07:15
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Schwarzwald posted:I have almost the exact opposite opinion. Pffffft. Big agree on Blue Friend, but I could never see eye-to-eye w this. Gridman bored the holy hell outta me, it was so undercooked. Rah's plot stuff wasn't really what drew me in. It's atmosphere was great and I guess it all pulls together thematically, but it also doesn't really make much sense. The web of character interactions really made that show something special, watching Ayato adjust to his life w all these weirdos, the way everyone's bouncing off each other adds to the mystery while still establishing character efficiently and just being fun to watch...it has the mood of a subtle artsy-fartsy post-Eva thing but the cast interactions have the breeziness and intricacies of somethin more like Patlabor and it builds into SERIOUS TIME as equally well. I like to point to how Rah handles its bridge commentary scenes during combat, compared to Eva. In Rah, it's the standard for nearly member present observing to have an entirely different reaction to what's happening to everyone else, in overt or subtle ways, there's just such careful attention and detail being paid to these characters. It's like candy for me. It rules that after 20+ years of Gasarakis and SSSS's and Frannxs all straining to think of something new or edgy or different to say w this formula, we've already done had the post-Eva thing that hits all the beats w panache, treats its characters w respect instead of like tropes and satisfyingly reaches the ending where the two raging god mech pilots, simulteanously and for the own reasons,just stop and go, "wait, love. It's Love I want. My answer is Love." and lands on the coveted Post Eva happy ending w no muss, no fuss, and we've done been had it for nearly 20 yrs itself. Pootybutt fucked around with this message at 07:24 on Aug 14, 2020 |
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Aug 14, 2020 07:20
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Pootybutt posted:Pffffft. Big agree on Blue Friend, but I could never see eye-to-eye w this. Gridman bored the holy hell outta me, it was so undercooked. Care to go into more detail on why Gridman didn't work for you? I thought it was pretty drat good, and the general consensus seems to agree, so it's interesting to have another prospective. The way it played its "normal" characters off the genre goofiness of the Neon Genesis characters, Anti's arc, the way Akane's dynamics developed with the rest of the cast, episode nine... Hell, the animation alone stands out. Where most shows make a hard distinction between foreground and background objects, to the point where you can sometimes tell which pencil someone's going to pick up from the slightly different visual style, Gridman's daily life scenes make a point of having every desk in a classroom just look like a desk. Meanwhile, the CG fights carry a live action tokusatsu vibe, having the monsters fight like guys in suits. It takes advantage of the medium without losing sight of the influences. Oh! And the way it used the bonus episodes was brilliant! They were fun enough on their own, sure, but the way they played off Akane's treatment of everyone but her and the Gridman Alliance as extras, showing the "background" characters as people living their own lives? That's perfect! I really should rewatch Gridman sometime soon. SSSS Gridman is a great loving show.
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Aug 14, 2020 08:07
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chiasaur11 posted:Care to go into more detail on why Gridman didn't work for you? No thx.
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Aug 14, 2020 08:46
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Pootybutt posted:Rah's plot stuff wasn't really what drew me in. It's atmosphere was great and I guess it all pulls together thematically, but it also doesn't really make much sense. The web of character interactions really made that show something special, watching Ayato adjust to his life w all these weirdos, the way everyone's bouncing off each other adds to the mystery while still establishing character efficiently and just being fun to watch...it has the mood of a subtle artsy-fartsy post-Eva thing but the cast interactions have the breeziness and intricacies of somethin more like Patlabor and it builds into SERIOUS TIME as equally well. I like to point to how Rah handles its bridge commentary scenes during combat, compared to Eva. In Rah, it's the standard for nearly member present observing to have an entirely different reaction to what's happening to everyone else, in overt or subtle ways, there's just such careful attention and detail being paid to these characters. It's like candy for me. I agree the plot isn't the draw, and I did like the characters in all their quirky weirdness. But even if the characters aren't relevant to the plot they still need to be relevant to something, and for the most part they weren't. A more generous reading might be that the carefree life they were offering was there to tempt Ayato into domesticity, and his growth was choosing to ditch them. But the way the show handles it is by having 12 episodes where nothing really happens, it seemed less like he overcame a temptation and more like he got fed up. It's been 15 years since I've seen the show, however. Maybe I'd have a better opinion after a rewatch. Pootybutt posted:It rules that after 20+ years of Gasarakis and SSSS's and Frannxs all straining to think of something new or edgy or different to say w this formula, Fair enough if SSSS wasn't to your taste, but didn't feel like the show was edgy or strained at all? Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Aug 14, 2020 |
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Aug 14, 2020 18:29
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I mean the domestic life largely is Haruka trying to get Ayato to remember her and her uncle. This whole island is where they met it has a lot of significance to them personally. Plus Ayato ends up in contact with his father (or clone father???) through this work as well as his twin brother. So much of it is about trying to remind him of his old life pre Jupiter. Only thing that comes to mind as not really making sense is how Ayato ended up not with the Bahbem guy while Itsuki did. That and Quons whole deal of being a parent but also permanently 16 until the end of the show which worries me. I don’t even think that was said in show but it’s on the wiki while the manga has Maya actually be his biological mother. Most of the rest of the show made sense to me as is. Overall the show had a great atmosphere. Ayato grows a lot in the episodes until the end and Haruka is probably the most desperate woman I’ve ever seen in an anime but this is such extraordinary circumstances so I can’t fault her that much.
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Aug 14, 2020 19:20
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Schwarzwald posted:I agree the plot isn't the draw, and I did like the characters in all their quirky weirdness. But even if the characters aren't relevant to the plot they still need to be relevant to something, and for the most part they weren't. A more generous reading might be that the carefree life they were offering was there to tempt Ayato into domesticity, and his growth was choosing to ditch them. But the way the show handles it is by having 12 episodes where nothing really happens, it seemed less like he overcame a temptation and more like he got fed up. Yeah, it'd prolly be more fair to have put something like, hrmmm, Betterman? lol I don't really know how to get into this wo going into a big effortpost about the show, but I feel like the extended time w the large ensemble cast is meant to illustrate many different angles on the same point, RahXephon's biggest loudest theme, that being "You don't have to let yourself be stuffed into some box that sums up your value, love and connection bonds us together across time and space and even across opposing sides or the roles assigned to you in, say, some apocalyptic destiny war." Perhaps basic to some, but a really beautiful message to me, and one elaborated on naturally thru character drama. Nearly all of them struggle w or are obsessed w or resigned to their circumstances over unrequited love, or feeling unchosen or lesser or forever removed from others over what they are, or what they feel they can't be bc of what they aren't, or what they lost or had to lose to go through w all this(and also how it turns out that most of them are related lol.) All the worst things happen to the characters who lash out or break themselves down over never becoming what they're told they should be or being denied what they feel they can never have. Isshiki's arc illustrates that most plainly, in plot terms, but look deeper and it's all over the show. The character writing does maintain a certain distance that reads oddly if you were to watch it fresh after Eva or something, I dunno that I'd recommend that. It never occurred to me think of the first half in Nirai-Kanai as a trap Ayato needed to escape from, but I guess that reading does work, being escorted from one grooming bubble existence just to be taken to another. Ayato leaving seemed more about personal, internal reasons, tho a sense of betrayal is also there. This is all making me want to rewatch it again haha.
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Aug 14, 2020 20:49
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Every single time I wander into this thread I come away from it wanting to watch something. Y'all post good. I'm gonna do a rewatch of Rahxephon now that it's been like ten years since I saw it last.
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Aug 14, 2020 21:21
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I think for Ayato, Nirai-Kanai island is a nice escape from home, a vacation, but his true reality is Tokyo, pre and post jupiter. Like Ayato is still 17 and was suddenly taken from his home and did not really grasp everything going on. Most of why Tokyo Jupiter still worked for him was that largely nothing had changed for him in his day to day life. He was being controlled and manipulated but still had his 'mom' and friends from before. The problem was Mishima Reika and the operation into Tokyo Jupiter by TERRA lead to a disruption and a reminder that something was missing from Tokyo all this time. Ayato was missing his muse and love Haruka. She had left such a strong impact on him that he could never get her image from his mind. Almost everything in the show is about reconciling that and honestly if she was on the Tokyo side of this then it's hard to say that anything in the show would have happened. Having said that the plan the Mu had for him was likely to also retune the world for them but it feels like that was never explicitly stated. Either that or to prevent the retuning so they could take over the world which once Jupiter is down they managed to do handily.
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Aug 14, 2020 21:21
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Pootybutt posted:This is all making me want to rewatch it again haha. Honestly, same!  While we're talking about the show, there's an orchestral version of the ending theme that plays during the battle in the Blue Friend episode. Does anyone know if that's available anywhere? I remember looking for it way back when but never being able to turn it up. StrixNebulosa posted:Every single time I wander into this thread I come away from it wanting to watch something. Y'all post good. I'm gonna do a rewatch of Rahxephon now that it's been like ten years since I saw it last. I know I've been harsh on it, but while I don't think it's a masterpiece, it does have some clever ideas and there are two or three really great episodes*. I remember thinking it was less than the sum of its parts, but it still had some drat good parts. * (Blue Friend has been brought up, but I also really dug the flashback episode were some of the characters as kids discover a tiny dolem and try to make friends with it.) Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Aug 14, 2020 |
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Aug 14, 2020 21:35
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Oh god the My Pet Rock episode hurt a lot.
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Aug 14, 2020 21:44
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StrixNebulosa posted:Every single time I wander into this thread I come away from it wanting to watch something. Y'all post good. I'm gonna do a rewatch of Rahxephon now that it's been like ten years since I saw it last. That makes me very happy to hear. Schwarzwald posted:Honestly, same! That track is on the third volume disc, it's called The Second Sorrow.
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Aug 14, 2020 21:56
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Schwarzwald posted:I know I've been harsh on it, but while I don't think it's a masterpiece Rahxephon has a tone/atmosphere unlike almost any mecha anime I've ever seen so that's part of the draw. And the OP is a banger. But to respond here, I'm curious: ARE there any masterpiece mecha animes? Even something like Neon Genesis Evangelion has its flaws, and I - imho - think it's easily the best of them all in a lot of ways.
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Aug 14, 2020 22:19
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There will be someone out there who will disagree with anything that gets suggested, but for my money, it's gonna be Giant Robo: The Day the Earth Stood Still. It's so good in so many categories: the retro aesthetic and smooth animation, the phenomenal soundtrack, the bombastic climax in episode 6. I can think of some criticisms (not especially mecha-focused, the cameos from Yokoyama's other works can be jarring, etc), but overall it's the strongest one that jumps to mind.
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Aug 14, 2020 22:31
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StrixNebulosa posted:Rahxephon has a tone/atmosphere unlike almost any mecha anime I've ever seen so that's part of the draw. And the OP is a banger. If there is it’s gotta be something short. Nothing long can stay good for its whole run.
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Aug 14, 2020 22:31
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StrixNebulosa posted:Rahxephon has a tone/atmosphere unlike almost any mecha anime I've ever seen so that's part of the draw. And the OP is a banger. Everything has flaws so by that measure no, but I would call Evangelion, Giant Robo, Big O, maybe Escaflowne and Macross Plus masterpieces. Gunbuster is close and probably some others I'm forgetting.
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Aug 14, 2020 22:41
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Sakurazuka posted:Everything has flaws so by that measure no, but I would call Evangelion, Giant Robo, Big O, maybe Escaflowne and Macross Plus masterpieces. Gunbuster is close and probably some others I'm forgetting. I agree with Macross Plus.
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Aug 14, 2020 22:43
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StrixNebulosa posted:Rahxephon has a tone/atmosphere unlike almost any mecha anime I've ever seen so that's part of the draw. And the OP is a banger. If you're saying having flaws eliminates something from contention as a masterpiece, there are no masterpieces. The greatest works of art don't succeed by being without flaws, but in spite of them, or sometimes, in odd ways, partially because of them. Definitely putting War in the Pocket on the candidates list, myself.
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Aug 14, 2020 22:44
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Every solitary frame and note of Macross Plus and Giant Robo is just the dopest fuckin poo poo I've ever seen or heard. The AI stuff in Plus hits real different after Carole & Tuesday.
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Aug 14, 2020 22:52
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Gunbuster's gotta be up there. I think Escaflowne could be up there if it hadn't been so compressed for its last 20~ episodes, and I haven't seen the rest of those. *furiously makes a list* Thanks for the responses, I like thinking about good mecha anime and then watching them. Also I am fifteen minutes into the first episode of Rahxephon and I have to laud it for being hugely confusing. Intentionally so but this is really ridiculous, give me a bone, give me a hint. (I'm enjoying it a lot!)
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Aug 14, 2020 22:56
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Macross Frontier Wings of Goodbye rules too, one of my fave anime flicks of the 10's.StrixNebulosa posted:Also I am fifteen minutes into the first episode of Rahxephon and I have to laud it for being hugely confusing. Intentionally so but this is really ridiculous, give me a bone, give me a hint. (I'm enjoying it a lot!) Rah sticks hard to the "Show, don't tell" rule much more than most stuff out there, it can be a demanding watch. Hope ya keep at it, tho! Thumbs up!
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Aug 14, 2020 23:02
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StrixNebulosa posted:But to respond here, I'm curious: ARE there any masterpiece mecha animes? Even something like Neon Genesis Evangelion has its flaws, and I - imho - think it's easily the best of them all in a lot of ways. By masterpiece I don't necessarily mean flawless so much as maintaining a high level of craft (for some type of craft*) relatively consistently throughout. Evangelion is an important and influential show to the genre, but I wouldn't call it a masterpiece as such. (Like Rahxephon, I feel it's less than the sum of its parts.) Like Midjack says, this criteria largely benefits shorter shows. Even going back to the 70s, the mecha shows that have held up the best are mostly the ones that had their runtime docked. Zambot 3 is a great show, but it's not great just because it handles tough topics well and has emotional beats that hit like a freight train; it's great because it does all that in only 23 episodes with very little cruft. Combattler V, by contrast, has a lot of really solid episodes, but they're all in the first half. At 54 episodes long, there's a lot of back half to drag the show down. A lot of OAVs qualify. Giant Robo: TDTESS was mentioned, but Gunbuster is also a solid contender. Dangaioh and Zeorymer are maybe lesser titles, but they do what they set out to do very well. For TV series, probably Gundam '79 and Ideon, maybe Voltes V, maybe 2004's Tetsujin 28. (All but Tetsujin had shortened broadcasts.) I haven't read much mecha manga, but Getter Robo Go is a masterpiece is any of them are. To be sure, a lot of this comes down to personal taste. I'm not trying to engrave my favorites into The Very Official Internet Ranking of Mecha so much as saying that, in my eyes, they masterfully exhibit some aspect of craft within the genre. * Gundam '79 was famously off model for much of the runtime, but the characters and story carry the show. Dangaioh is basically the opposite. What's the plot of Dangaioh? What does it matter? Enjoy the gorgeous animation! Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Dec 21, 2020 |
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Aug 14, 2020 23:47
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And, like, I don't know if I need to say this, but a show doesn't need to be a masterpiece to still be enjoyable or entertaining. Mazinkaiser and the Getter Robo OAVs are, uh, pretty far from being masterpieces, but all the same: DON'T WANNA KNOW WHY, EVERYBODY READY? GET IT ON!!
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Aug 14, 2020 23:53
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The Mazinkaiser OVA rules imo, it's exactly what I wanted and the animation was cool.
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Aug 15, 2020 00:21
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on the topic of possible masterpieces in the mecha genre, I'd say Dragon's Heaven has to be near the top; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vqRjVQhjBw
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Aug 15, 2020 00:46
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Tribladeofchaos posted:The Mazinkaiser OVA rules imo, it's exactly what I wanted and the animation was cool. Mazinkaiser or Mazinkaizer? Because Mazinkaizer SKL is a show that knows what it wants to do, yeah. Three episodes, good character development for the protagonist who's actually capable of it, and lots of glorious robot violence.
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Aug 15, 2020 00:51
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WE ARE THE SOLDIERS OF ETERNITY YEAH
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Aug 15, 2020 00:58
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I'll happily say that Giant Robo: The Day the Earth Stood Still is a masterpiece and my favorite anime of all time. I'm sure there are lots of flaws someone could find in it, but I don't care, I love it to pieces. I have two cels from it framed on my bedroom wall and I'm so thrilled to have them. After that...I don't know. I'm with everyone else in that "good" and "bad" are incredibly subjective, and to push that further, not the same as "entertaining" and "boring" and honestly, I care more about the latter two than the first. I have stuff I like/love, but I'm not going to say that anyone else will like them. Maybe if they have the same taste as me, but my taste is weird. Everyone's is. What's a strength for one person is a flaw for another, so the critical thing is trying to figure out what someone would like based on their own personal taste, not on what the general consensus agrees is "good". But thinking about it, Goshogun: The Time Etranger should be on the general consensus list because it's good, entertaining and nails what it is intending to do. It doesn't have the robot and I'm sure it has flaws, but it's a very solid movie. Schwarzwald posted:A lot of OAVs qualify. Giant Robo: TDTESS was mentioned, but Gunbuster is also a solid contender. Dangaioh and Zeorymer are maybe lesser titles, but they do what they set out to do very well. Do you have any more information on Voltes having its broadcast shortened? I know it's the shortest of the Robot Romances, but I don't know the circumstances behind it.
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Aug 15, 2020 01:44
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Turn A Gundam is very impressive by the standards of fifty-episode TV shows. Just a ridiculous confluence of talent.
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Aug 15, 2020 01:54
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I was trying to think of A Gundam for my list and for whatever reason my brain skipped over both 0800 and Turn A, the only real contenders.
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Aug 15, 2020 02:02
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MarsDragon posted:I'll happily say that Giant Robo: The Day the Earth Stood Still is a masterpiece and my favorite anime of all time. I'm sure there are lots of flaws someone could find in it, but I don't care, I love it to pieces. I have two cels from it framed on my bedroom wall and I'm so thrilled to have them. The complete lack of anything mecha related is exactly why Time Etranger should be disqualified from this discussion, seriously I have no idea how they got away with that in a movie that's supposed to tie in with a mecha series
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Aug 15, 2020 02:08
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I just can’t figure out how one sees Giant Robo without shelling out $100+.
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Aug 15, 2020 02:19
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MarsDragon posted:Do you have any more information on Voltes having its broadcast shortened? I know it's the shortest of the Robot Romances, but I don't know the circumstances behind it. I don't, but I can tell that it was. Back then, same as now, a typical anime cour was about 12-13 episodes. If a series wasn't easily dividable, something was up. There's probably some show bible somewhere that goes into it, but without knowing exactly why my guess would be the toy didn't sell well enough. Voltes followed Combattler which had pretty much the same toy. And if the toy doesn't sell (or if it stops selling) the toy companies are apt to cut funding. Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Aug 15, 2020 |
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Aug 15, 2020 02:28
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Anonymous Robot posted:I just can’t figure out how one sees Giant Robo without shelling out $100+. Torrent sites
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Aug 15, 2020 02:40
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Anonymous Robot posted:I just can’t figure out how one sees Giant Robo without shelling out $100+. Crime, presumably. Apparently the people who own the rights try to charge a lot more than the usual for the license, treating each major character as a separate purchase.
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Aug 15, 2020 02:43
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If I were to make a list of mecha masterpieces (In no real order), it would probably be: -Eva -Gundam 0080 -Big O -Escaflowne -Gurren Lagann -Macross Plus -Mobile Suit Gundam: The Origin (Manga version) -Uh then there's borderline stuff like Cowboy Bebop, original FLCL, Yamato 2199 etc. though how much they qualify as "mecha" is up for debate. After that there's stuff that I think is good but with major flaws and/or qualifiers attached: -GunBuster (Closest to passing on this list for me) -Magic Knight Rayearth (Probably best mecha anime directed toward explicitly younger audience that I've personally seen) -Armored Trooper VOTOMS (Original series) -Code Geass (This one might be nostalgic appeal for me more than anything) -Mobile Suit Gundam (TV series + film trilogy versions) -Zambot 3 -Cross Ange (Hard sell on most people here because it embraces being trashy pulp, though frankly it holds together better than most everything else recent) -Attack on Titan (Another one you'd have to debate even being mecha, though it does most of what various Gundam series try better than Gundam. Ending could totally fall apart though) -SDF Macross etc. I've mostly fallen out of love with mecha these days but those are ones I tend to want to revisit and usually don't require too many huge qualifiers attached to them. Though even something like Zambot 3, even for a shorter show like that, you really have to be willing to put general 70's TV repetitiveness and weirdness to get the good aspects out of that show. And a lot of mecha anime often have more qualifiers than that you have to throw onto them. Raxivace fucked around with this message at 16:24 on Aug 15, 2020 |
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Aug 15, 2020 02:46
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Depressing that there's nothing made past 1996 on anyone's list lol Even 'more recent' good stuff I can think of like Eureka 7 and Shin Mazinger are like 15 years old. Always Gridman I guess
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Aug 15, 2020 02:54
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Eureka 7 coulda got on a best of lost if it had been a twenty five episode series.
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Aug 15, 2020 02:58
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