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Basebf555 posted:There are definitely some people that don't like Drag Me to Hell but I have a feeling we're gonna get some that don't respond very well to Fire Walk With Me either. This will probably come down to who gets the more convincing effort posts. Oh for sure. Drag Me To Hell* is more conventional and fun, but it's a little toothless compared to Raimi's other movies. (I wish we had The Gift; that would be a waaaay more interesting match-up with Fire Walk With Me.) However, Fire Walk With Me is horrific. If we're voting based on "What movie utilizes horror more? and to what effect?", Fire Walk With Me has the deck stacked, even without the greater Twin Peaks context. edit: *It's also just a modern remake of Night of the Demon, and a lesser one, at that Franchescanado fucked around with this message at 15:44 on Sep 3, 2020 |
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Sep 3, 2020 15:41
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I do wonder how much the Twin Peaks context will matter, and how many people voting here will be going in without that context. Because the last 30 minutes or so of Fire Walk With Me is about as soul-crushing an experience as I've ever had with a film but I feel like a lot of that is because I already knew so much about Laura, I felt like I knew her. I so badly want to reach through the screen and pull her away from all the madness but I don't know if that feeling translates for people who weren't invested in the show.
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Sep 3, 2020 15:46
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Alright boys, fire up the burners we're makin' garmonbozia tonight!!
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Sep 3, 2020 15:46
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Basebf555 posted:I do wonder how much the Twin Peaks context will matter, and how many people voting here will be going in without that context. Because the last 30 minutes or so of Fire Walk With Me is about as soul-crushing an experience as I've ever had with a film but I feel like a lot of that is because I already knew so much about Laura, I felt like I knew her. I so badly want to reach through the screen and pull her away from all the madness but I don't know if that feeling translates for people who weren't invested in the show. It's also interesting that, somehow, The Return strengthens things set up in Fire Walk With Me*. Things that seem absurd and nightmarish gain deeper context in The Return, and somehow strengthen it, despite coming about decades later. *The Lodge dwellers; Judy; garmonbozia; Blue Rose files; time losing linearity with the Lodges
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Sep 3, 2020 15:47
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Franchescanado posted:It's also interesting that, somehow, The Return strengthens things set up in Fire Walk With Me. Things that seem absurd and nightmarish gain deeper context in The Return, and somehow strengthen it, despite coming about decades later. It also reframed my understanding of Fire Walk With Me's final scene, which I suppose we'll get into more as the week goes on.
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Sep 3, 2020 15:49
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Franchescanado posted:It's also interesting that, somehow, The Return strengthens things set up in Fire Walk With Me. Things that seem absurd and nightmarish gain deeper context in The Return, and somehow strengthen it, despite coming about decades later. A full 25 years later! The way Lynch and Frost were so adaptable and able to take small things that maybe didn't even have an idea of what they were when they introduced them and then turn them into the keys to this universe is just astounding. I will say, thematically this matchup works -- both are about young, sympathetic women haunted by demons. But FWWM is just next tier, masterpiece stuff. Drag Me to Hell manages to tackle the very serious issue of eating disorders in a way that's both fun and never slides into bad taste doing it, but is still just kind of upper-mid tier 2000s horror going up against one of the best, most horrifying films ever made.
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Sep 3, 2020 15:52
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TrixRabbi posted:A full 25 years later! If someone told me FWWM was their favorite Lynch, I would nod with admiration. It was my ex's favorite Lynch film, even! If someone told me Drag Me To Hell was their favorite Raimi, I'd probably laugh at them. I saw it in theaters, which ruled; but it's not even close to his best.
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Sep 3, 2020 15:56
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Franchescanado posted:Christian (there's a symbol for you) is a shallow guy, and detached from Dani because their relationship is over. When I'm around people I feel awkward about--ex-lovers where things didn't end well, annoying people I dislike, people I don't trust--I retreat into myself, I'm quiet; so that how I read Christian. He can't let loose with his boys because he's selfishly retreating into himself because of the unspoken broken bonds between him and Dani. We see him without her once, getting pizza with his friends, and he's all energy there. But half of the movie he's drugged into quiet fear. You know, I'm really glad that someone has put my feelings towards Christian into words. The overwhelming majority of people were focused on Dani, and rightfully so, but I never really saw him as the villain in this story. He's at the tail end of a relationship, he can't bring himself to break up with Dani, and really, she just went through monumental trauma, who the gently caress would end a relationship at this moment? But he's also completely unequipped to deal with the situation, who would expect him to? So his reaction is completely understandable to me. Also oooh yeaaah loving these matchup. Can't wait to rewatch Drag Me To Hell, ideally with the spookadoodle crew!
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Sep 3, 2020 15:57
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I just watched Horror Noire last night and the joy GET OUT brought to black film-makers, actors, writers and academics was tangible. I'm really very sad to see it go but I guess Peele can win the Bracketology once he has made a few more films.Shrecknet posted:The Final Destination is in sight! This is a fun week - I've never even heard of Special Effects! Looking forward to checking it out.
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Sep 3, 2020 16:06
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DDD ALERT 
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TrixRabbi posted:Alright boys, fire up the burners we're makin' garmonbozia tonight!!  Fire Walk with Me vs. Drag me to Hell, TONIGHT on the CineD Discord Starting 1930 EST  The Fly vs Rebecca, AND Lair of the White Worm vs Special Effects, FRIDAY on the CineD Discord Starting 1900 EST   Bad Taste vs The Devil's Backbone, MONDAY on the CineD Discord Starting 1930 EST 
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Sep 3, 2020 16:06
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Oh poo poo, well I'm glad there isn't an NBA game 7 tonight!
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Sep 3, 2020 16:12
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edit: Nevermind, don't wanna jinx.
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Sep 3, 2020 16:21
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Basebf555 posted:Oh poo poo, well I'm glad there isn't an NBA game 7 tonight! I have no idea who NBA is, have they directed anything I might know?
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Sep 3, 2020 16:36
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Siicck, looking forward to the stream tonight! I'm really curious about Special Effects tomorrow, because Lair of the White Worm is such a delight.
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Sep 3, 2020 17:36
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Basebf555 posted:Without getting into specific future matchups, I see no significant obstacles between Romero and the finals at this point. His entire side of the bracket has been cleaned out of any legitimate threats. Matango is coming for you
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Sep 3, 2020 18:06
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I can't wait to stream Matango. Fran streamed it during Z-Fest, and it was a lot of fun once it got going.
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Sep 3, 2020 18:48
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SHAM! SHAM! SHAAAAM! SHAMMY SHAM SHAM SHAM! Ok, out of my system. Silver lining, tournament got me to watch the one Carpenter film I hadn't seen for some reason and I loved it. And now I won't have any hesitation to rewatch The Fog, Halloween, or The Thing in October because "I just watched them". And now I didn't waste all that time watching Twin Peaks. I can hate and not get the movie too! I was really hoping Drag Me To Hell would come up. I really didn't care for it and I've been meaning to do a rewatch. I've also been meaning Fly and Devil's Backbone rewatches. It will be nice to watch a Cronenberg film that doesn't have someone being raped and liking it. I think this will end the 4 movie streak. Never seen Bad Taste so should be fun. Never seen that Hitchcock. Disappointing draw but its new to me. Lair of the White Worm was fun. Never heard of Special Effects. Should be a fun week. Provided I can get some sleep. I'm so tired.
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Sep 3, 2020 19:31
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STAC Goat posted:It will be nice to watch a Cronenberg film that doesn't have someone being raped and liking it. I think this will end the 4 movie streak. I don't believe that there is any rape in The Fly, but there is some weird boundary pushing with the Stathis character, who is both Geena Davis' editor/boss and also her ex. And he does some creepy poo poo like letting himself into her apartment when she's away to take a shower, and just acting like a possessive rear end in a top hat, even though she has moved on. And then the film treats him like a hero by the end! It's definitely the bum note from the whole rest of the film.
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Sep 3, 2020 20:36
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God damnit, Cronenberg. At least he's consistent.
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Sep 3, 2020 21:09
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Class3KillStorm posted:I don't believe that there is any rape in The Fly, but there is some weird boundary pushing with the Stathis character, who is both Geena Davis' editor/boss and also her ex. And he does some creepy poo poo like letting himself into her apartment when she's away to take a shower, and just acting like a possessive rear end in a top hat, even though she has moved on. And then the film treats him like a hero by the end! It's definitely the bum note from the whole rest of the film. Eh, I don't think the film treats him as a hero. I think he attempts to thwart the film's villain, but he's shown to be pretty much a slime and a loser throughout. It's a hero-less film. In fact, his fate is one of the most satisfying moments.
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Sep 3, 2020 21:10
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Franchescanado posted:Eh, I don't think the film treats him as a hero. I think he attempts to thwart the film's villain, but he's shown to be pretty much a slime and a loser throughout. It's a hero-less film. In fact, his fate is one of the most satisfying moments. I felt that the film's approach to Stathis does a bit of a 180 around the time that Davis comes back in and announces that she's pregnant. At that point, Stathis becomes the sympathetic character, at least towards Veronica, in a way that Seth does not. Heck, the baby plays into the ending heavily, since Seth reveals that he wants to genetically merge himself, Veronica and their unborn child together as a way to purge himself of the fly genes - that being the moment that he becomes the most monstrous and finally completes his full-on fly metamorphosis. It is interesting the timing of it though, since that first scene I mentioned follows on from Stathis watching the "how does Brundlefly eat?" video taping, which is itself following closely on from when Seth basically publicly announces that he is sick and wasting away. Since most people tend to view The Fly as an AIDS panic parable, it's funny that shortly after the main character announces that he is ill that the film starts to re-center the hero lens away from him, essentially saying that the disease itself corrupts Seth morally as well as physically. I don't know if Cronenberg intended this, but I think it does end up meaning the film is a bit less sympathetic towards him than most people realize, so I wonder how that morality shift ends up playing to audiences now 30+ years later.
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Sep 3, 2020 22:32
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Cronenberg has gone on record saying he didn’t intend a specific AIDS metaphor. The only time I’ve really struggled with a Cronenberg film on moral grounds regarding sex and gender is The Brood, which really has “take that you b*tch of an ex-wife” attitude to it. Usually I see him as pretty astutely commenting on those issues in a depiction =/= endorsement way.
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Sep 4, 2020 02:06
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If Cronenberg's The Fly wasn't made in the 80s I don't think anyone would think twice about it having a supposed AIDS angle. The text of the story is very clearly that Seth had issues before hand and being mutated is only letting those come out more and more. Also yeah, the other guy is never treated as the hero of the film- the hero of the film is the leading lady, start to finish. The other guy is given some sympathy but, well, we know how the Brundlefly eats
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Sep 4, 2020 02:14
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I watched A History of Violence the other day. And sure enough another uncomfortable sex thing in it. But mostly there was an interesting moral struggle in the film about self defense and forgiveness and guilt and etc. It was complicated and engrossing, but it was also odd because like all the other Cronenberg films I've watched of late it felt "cold" and distant to me. I didn't connect with these characters despite a good story and great acting and I didn't know what the film was saying on these moral questions. So I read a little and I see him basically make loosely the same philosophical argument I seem to see about those other films. He wasn't making a moral statement. He doesn't seem to think a moral answer exists. "Flesh is flesh" kind of stuff. I fundamentally don't understand it. It feels like Cronenberg is fundamentally amoral and he makes his films to share his amoral philosophy about issues people have strong moral views on. And I don't know what to make of that or how to process that. I can't empathize or sympathize with it. I don't think I like it. I don't understand Cronenberg and I'm starting to think I don't want to. I'm happy to be corrected and enlightened.
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Sep 4, 2020 02:17
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I don’t think Cronenberg is amoral, I think he finds fiction and film to be a safe place to explore amorality.
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Sep 4, 2020 02:48
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That's probably a distinction I should have made. I don't know if its his personal world view or just an idea he finds incredibly compelling. I don't mean to call him a psychopath or something.
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Sep 4, 2020 03:06
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STAC Goat posted:That's probably a distinction I should have made. I don't know if its his personal world view or just an idea he finds incredibly compelling. I don't mean to call him a psychopath or something. I think he finds it compelling. He has an interest and imagination for the macabre, and is willing to explore sexuality, through science, philosophy and a post-modern literary perspective. With horror and films, he can explore the taboo in a safe way. He’s an intelligent and affable person by all accounts. Let’s use Wes Craven’s Last House again. Clearly Wes Craven never committed rape, his film does not advocate rape, but it still features an unwavering look at a rape being committed. Wes Craven doesn’t advocate revenge, never committed revenge, and yet his film explores not only revenge, but what a large part of society would define as justifiable revenge. Why is it that Wes Craven’s Last House on the Left doesn’t (by my assumption, correct me if I’m wrong please) make you concerned about Wes Craven’s world view (to the point of your discomfort in partaking in the film as an audience) but Cronenberg’s The Fly or Dead Ringers does? Franchescanado fucked around with this message at 03:35 on Sep 4, 2020 |
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Sep 4, 2020 03:27
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Probably because as bad as I find Last House on the Left the morality of that story is pretty clear. Its a revenge film against rapists. And as I remember it that revenge isn't even presented in a positive way. Its a dismal victory. It gets weird because Craven tries to juxtapose the ugliness of what's done vs beauty and light hearted comedy but at the core of that its clear Wes saw the rapes as an extremely immoral thing. Where as when I watched Dead Ringers my takeaway (and one others seemed to agree) was that there was no moral judgement on the brothers' immoral actions. And that pattern has been consistent through Rabid, Shivers, and History of Violence and then backed up by that podcast or interviews from Cronenberg I've read. And I'm not saying every movie or director has to have a moral center or lesson or something. Like Jason obviously doesn't have anything great to say about humanity and that's totally fine. Dead Alive wasn't trying to do anything except entertain. But Cronenberg is obviously exploring moral questions, but he's doing it from a perspective of amorality. And I don't know what to do with that. I definitely find it unpleasant though. And I'm not saying lets Cancel David Cronenberg. I'm just trying to figure his films out, or figure out if I want to figure them out. Its also, you know, the uniqueness that I've watched 4 films from the same director in just as many months after seeing so little of his work before this. Especially in this format and with this discussion. So I've got a very intense focus on him as an auteur and forming a first impression. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 04:18 on Sep 4, 2020 |
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Sep 4, 2020 03:59
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So Schreck, if you want to swap Frankenstein Conquers the World with The H Man, you could for Honda. It IS more of a horror film, Frankenstein connections aside. I figure since we don't know who's pulling what in that round that might be kosher?
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Sep 4, 2020 06:09
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I wish I had my copy of Cronenberg On Cronenberg handy. It's a great book of interviews where he talks about his moves and ideas at length. It's been many years since I've read it, but one thing that struck me is when he said that his depiction of the Mantle twins in the opening of Dead Ringers, when they are these detached-seeming children trying to investigate the world, was the most autobiographical thing he's done. He's always taken a clinical curiosity at people and bodies, and just as the surgeon passes no moral judgment when they turn our insides out for display and analysis, neither does he. It's unsurprising that Cronenberg's primary concerns are philosophy, psychoanalysis, and the relations of bodies to technology / each other, because his movies come off as the work of a fascinated academic.
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Sep 4, 2020 07:01
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Burkion posted:So Schreck, if you want to swap Frankenstein Conquers the World with The H Man, you could for Honda. It IS more of a horror film, Frankenstein connections aside. I figure since we don't know who's pulling what in that round that might be kosher? Honda is your baby so I'm down.
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Sep 4, 2020 07:28
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Origami Dali posted:I wish I had my copy of Cronenberg On Cronenberg handy. It's a great book of interviews where he talks about his moves and ideas at length. It's been many years since I've read it, but one thing that struck me is when he said that his depiction of the Mantle twins in the opening of Dead Ringers, when they are these detached-seeming children trying to investigate the world, was the most autobiographical thing he's done. He's always taken a clinical curiosity at people and bodies, and just as the surgeon passes no moral judgment when they turn our insides out for display and analysis, neither does he. It's unsurprising that Cronenberg's primary concerns are philosophy, psychoanalysis, and the relations of bodies to technology / each other, because his movies come off as the work of a fascinated academic. Which explains why he got picked to play Decker in Nightbreed.
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Sep 4, 2020 09:17
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Burkion posted:So Schreck, if you want to swap Frankenstein Conquers the World with The H Man, you could for Honda. It IS more of a horror film, Frankenstein connections aside. I figure since we don't know who's pulling what in that round that might be kosher? I was kind of looking forward to seeing Frankenstein Conquers the World. The trailer looks so goofy.
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Sep 4, 2020 17:05
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Debbie Does Dagon posted:I was kind of looking forward to seeing Frankenstein Conquers the World. The trailer looks so goofy. It's a hard call for me to make so I'm fine with leaving it to my other Honda friend Trix. H-Man is more genuinely horror related, but I'm afraid it'll be considered too similar to the Human Vapor in some ways, and I personally vastly prefer the Human Vapor for reasons that the thread will learn. Also the best ending to Frankenstein Conquers The World isn't available on any of the cuts that I'm aware of and has to be sought out separately despite being the canon ending. So that's a little frustrating. There's a LOT great to FCtW that I love dearly, not the least of which being Nick Adams who drat well should have been a bigger star than he ever got to be. But I know most people hold the H-Man in higher esteem than I do and tend to think of it as one of Honda's best films. Trix what say you
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Sep 4, 2020 17:54
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Debbie Does Dagon posted:
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Sep 4, 2020 18:20
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I've only seen a real shoddy copy of Frankenstein and it was a long time ago, but I'm down with a swap -- especially as we get into tougher competition -- allowing Honda to compete with a stronger entry (the contests that really tug at your vote are the best imo). Frankenstein is fun and goofy but it's hard to get ahold of afaik and I would gear towards exploring the more horror side of Honda's filmography. I support the switch, basically.
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Sep 4, 2020 19:19
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FWwM has the "Sycamore Trees" scene. Bye, Raimi.
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Sep 4, 2020 19:26
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Yea we watched them back to back last night and as much as I do love Drag Me to Hell, Fire Walk With Me is a legit masterpiece level film. They really aren't comparable.
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Sep 4, 2020 19:32
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Sheryl Lee's performance alone is enough to pull Lynch into the next round, and then you add all of his directorial touches, and then all of the history and context of the show... Honestly, if Lynch pulled FWwM in the final he would have stood a very good chance of taking the whole tournament.
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Sep 4, 2020 19:36
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I'm honestly curious Could Evil Dead 1 beat FWwM I'm not sure if it could
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Sep 4, 2020 19:39
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