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Vote to threadban Bioshuffle This poll is closed. |
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| Yes (Goku) |
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146 | 85.38% |
| No (also Goku) |
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25 | 14.62% |
| Total: | 171 votes | ||
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piL posted:Maybe Edgar is a rich person with incredible investigative intellect, enormous wealth, a penchant for planning and in-universe-accepted plot armor where everyone assumes that if you come at him, the cogs will turn and even the mightiest will be crushed. Just like another certain popular unpowered super hero also owned by DC. Batman or Lex Luthor?
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Sep 9, 2020 08:48
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MarcusSA posted:Batman or Lex Luthor? Yes.
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Sep 9, 2020 08:50
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LadyPictureShow posted:For anyone curious, here's what the Stormfront ones looked like Even if we give them credit for not being online enough to know about Stormfront, how can anyone be so loving stupid as to design a shoe with a literal Nazi eagle on the side?
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Sep 9, 2020 09:07
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Yeah they're really writing a check with Stormfront that I hope they can cash. She is an actual Nazi that fans are thinking is Cool, and Neat, and Powerful. The poor actress is on instagram telling people to stop saying they're "On Team Stormfront"
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Sep 9, 2020 09:14
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It was really dumb to name her that tbh. Some writer thought it would be a cool hint to extremely online people and I'm sure he or she thought they were being very clever. Meanwhile all the other fans are searching for stormfront on google because for the first 3 episodes she is being played up like the too cool for school badgirl sup.
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Sep 9, 2020 09:25
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Pawn 17 posted:It was really dumb to name her that tbh. Some writer thought it would be a cool hint to extremely online people and I'm sure he or she thought they were being very clever. Meanwhile all the other fans are searching for stormfront on google because for the first 3 episodes she is being played up like the too cool for school badgirl sup. The character was called Stormfront in the comics 15 years ago.
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Sep 9, 2020 09:26
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Pawn 17 posted:It was really dumb to name her that tbh. Some writer thought it would be a cool hint to extremely online people and I'm sure he or she thought they were being very clever. Meanwhile all the other fans are searching for stormfront on google because for the first 3 episodes she is being played up like the too cool for school badgirl sup. Eh I guess it goes both way. I assume a lot of real bad stuff is now gone from the first pages of search engine results because of this. E: eeeeh it's about 50/50. But holy poo poo, that's an unfortunate/creepy name choice for an Apple retailer: 
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Sep 9, 2020 09:32
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Jedit posted:The character was called Stormfront in the comics 15 years ago. The character is also completely different in the comics. I am assuming she didnt work directly for Hitler, for instance.
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Sep 9, 2020 09:55
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Jedit posted:The character was called Stormfront in the comics 15 years ago. Oh, I didn't read the comics. I'm assuming it was a hidden reference there as well? Just think it's a bit unfortunate the way it played out so far in the show. That Italian Guy posted:Eh I guess it goes both way. I assume a lot of real bad stuff is now gone from the first pages of search engine results because of this. That description is really cringe worthy, especially given everything above it.
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Sep 9, 2020 09:58
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Pawn 17 posted:Oh, I didn't read the comics. I'm assuming it was a hidden reference there as well? Just think it's a bit unfortunate the way it played out so far in the show. Extremely hidden (spoiled for nazism)  In case that was not clear enough, the cover for n.34 of the original run of The Boys has a young Stormfront pouting over what I presume is a burning 1945 Berlin, while wearing a literal Superman cape with a swastika on it. Spoilerless spoiler: Ennis baad. That Italian Guy fucked around with this message at 10:47 on Sep 9, 2020 |
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Sep 9, 2020 10:32
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That Italian Guy posted:Extremely hidden (spoiled for nazism) Because he wrote an evil Nazi being evil?
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Sep 9, 2020 10:38
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Open Source Idiom posted:Because he wrote an evil Nazi being evil? Because the leader of the good guys beating on the nazi shares a suspicious amount of their modus operandi with them, while still being presented as the good guy. And a lot of the content - especially related to Stormfront - is at best 90s super edginess shock factor. And I say this from the point of view of someone who actually doesn't dislike the comic. E: case in point, you can probably write the same strip without 4/10 words in it being racial/sexual slurs and still drive the point home. That Italian Guy fucked around with this message at 10:49 on Sep 9, 2020 |
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Sep 9, 2020 10:43
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That Italian Guy posted:Extremely hidden (spoiled for nazism) There are many things that Ennis can be criticised for, but making a Nazi a villain isn't one of them. But yeah, it's completely overt that Stormfront is bad in the comics. The show has really dropped the ball by initially trying to make her seem cool and on Annie's side against Vought, because Vought are the villains and Starlight is a hero. Now some of the less attentive members of the audience see her chasing Kenji as more of the "coolateral damage" that they're watching for, not realising that she is specifically murdering black people on sight.
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Sep 9, 2020 10:49
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Jedit posted:There are many things that Ennis can be criticised for, but making a Nazi a villain isn't one of them. The problem I have with the way Stormfront is written comes out when you consider that Butcher using slurs is actually supposed to be a cool/good guy behavior in the comic. So Stormfront kinda sounds like a release valve for Ennis to be able to print all the most offensive things he can think of for poo poo&giggles while covering behind the "he's a nazi, so of course he says vile things" shield. When at the same time your good guy starts throwing around fag here and bitch there while still being depicted as the good guy, things get muddied fast. Especially if he does that while being a very fashy "hughie leave behind your pinko feelings" macho man. E: vvvvv aaaaand this is what I was thinking about - although I think the series creators are leagues above the original material, especially when it comes to edginess, and this more of a "some people are horrible and broken" problem than their fault. That Italian Guy fucked around with this message at 11:07 on Sep 9, 2020 |
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Sep 9, 2020 11:02
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GoGoGadgetChris posted:Yeah they're really writing a check with Stormfront that I hope they can cash. She is an actual Nazi that fans are thinking is Cool, and Neat, and Powerful. The poor actress is on instagram telling people to stop saying they're "On Team Stormfront" Oh man I looked into this and people are being genuinely awful. It seems like it might be getting to her too. Man the internet sucks
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Sep 9, 2020 11:03
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That Italian Guy posted:The problem I have with the way Stormfront is written comes out when you consider that Butcher using slurs is actually supposed to be a cool/good guy behavior in the comic. So Stormfront kinda sounds like a release valve for Ennis to be able to print all the most offensive things he can think of for poo poo&giggles while covering behind the "he's a nazi, so of course he says vile things" shield. When at the same time your good guy starts throwing around fag here and bitch there while still being depicted as the good guy, things get muddied fast. Especially if he does that while being a very fashy macho man. wtf are you talking about, quit conflating poo poo Also Butcher is an rear end in a top hat. And the original scene you were posting about is in the show almost as-is - so what is even your point. What do people being shitlords in 2020 have to do with it
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Sep 9, 2020 11:10
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Victis posted:Also Butcher is an rear end in a top hat. Butcher is an rear end in a top hat...except when he isn't. Correction: Butcher is always an rear end in a top hat, but from time to time Ennis seems to think *wink wink* he is cool, actually. That Italian Guy fucked around with this message at 11:40 on Sep 9, 2020 |
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Sep 9, 2020 11:22
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“Butcher is basically a fascist” is a very intentional component of the story. That was, like, one of the central concepts of The Boys, Butcher has basically become a supervillain in his all-consuming quest for revenge, you are absolutely supposed to hate him. The fact you see that as an indictment of Ennis and not an indictment of superheroism/G.I. JOE culture is weird.
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Sep 9, 2020 11:24
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I think a lot of this comes from being exposed to the original material in the mid 2000s and forming an opinion on it at the time. With todays sensibilities, Butcher is clearly a villain. Was it the same 15 years ago - and I mean, from the get go (of course Butcher becomes a villain at a certain point, no matter what)? A lot of slurs were not considered that on this very forum around that time and after 9/11 there was a lot more fashy-oohrah in mainstream media beign depicted in - at least - a neutral way. Was Ennis ahead of the curve? I think that would be painting him with very generous strokes, considering a lot of the stuff he has written. That said, The Boys is a product of its time, so it's probably not entirely fair on my end to judge it today without taking that into consideration. I am among those who have tried to re-read it when S1 aired - cause I remembered it being good - and...I definitely struggled here and there. That Italian Guy fucked around with this message at 11:42 on Sep 9, 2020 |
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Sep 9, 2020 11:37
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The only thing I can clearly remember from what I read 10 years ago is Hughie's face covered in period blood and everyone on the team stifling their laughter.
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Sep 9, 2020 11:44
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Bust Rodd posted:“Butcher is basically a fascist” is a very intentional component of the story. That was, like, one of the central concepts of The Boys, Butcher has basically become a supervillain in his all-consuming quest for revenge, you are absolutely supposed to hate him. The fact you see that as an indictment of Ennis and not an indictment of superheroism/G.I. JOE culture is weird. Ennis's ostensible intentions for the character and the actual results on the printed page are two different things, and need to be judged accordingly. Comics-Butcher is a monster because he wants to kill all superpowered people, including his friends and himself, and that's a pretty constant through-line, but Comics-Butcher is also a monster because he casually spouts racist, misogynist, and homophobic things with a twinkle and a smile, and it's way, way less clear how Ennis intended the audience to take that; he almost never gets called out on it in a way that he isn't immediately able to quash, and it doesn't really factor into his heel turn or comeuppance. It's hard to read The Boys and not get the sense that Ennis knows that he ought to be a Hughie, but secretly kind of wishes he got to hang out with Butcher instead. For example: the Raynor character in the comics hates Butcher, but also cheats on her husband with him constantly even though she despises him because Billy Butcher's dick is just that good. How are we, the audience, supposed to square that with the "Butcher is a fascist bad guy" reading?
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Sep 9, 2020 11:48
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Things get even murkier when you get new The Boys content from Ennis and OH GOD why is Hughie being a massive rear end in a top hat to his trans friend and man, those are some bad takes on male privilege - but wait! He is...not racist and he is against Brexit, so yay? And yeah, new Hughie is a deeply traumatized individual, but in 2020 this kind of writing is a bit less excusable than it was in the edgy mid 2000 - also Hughie is definitely supposed to be the good guy, right? You could say that Butcher was a bad guy with some redeeming qualities and that new Hughie is a good guy with some bad traits but...is it worth giving Ennis the benefit of the doubt, again and again? That Italian Guy fucked around with this message at 12:00 on Sep 9, 2020 |
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Sep 9, 2020 11:57
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:For example: the Raynor character in the comics hates Butcher, but also cheats on her husband with him constantly even though she despises him because Billy Butcher's dick is just that good. How are we, the audience, supposed to square that with the "Butcher is a fascist bad guy" reading? Because that's what's attractive about fascism and toxic masculinity. Fash boys want to be the biggest swingingest dick in the room, they want to take and own and destroy and act without consequence. That's the appeal. Why do you think the comic's called "The Boys"?
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Sep 9, 2020 12:03
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"Rayner isn't getting off on Butcher, she's getting off on the hatefucking" is what you're meant to take from it, I think. As for Butcher himself: he's that guy who says horrible things sometimes but he's got the magnetism to pull it off. He's just joking, you know, he doesn't take things seriously. It's only as time goes by that you realise that he's abusing you and manipulating you. If Butcher wasn't good at hiding that then he wouldn't work as a character.
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Sep 9, 2020 12:06
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Yeah I think one of the successes of the boys is that an anti-hero like Butcher often gets a lot of excuses as 'bad but not as bad as you initially think' but then Butcher subverts that by being actually as bad as you think. There is still the question of how much the writer/reader revels in his assholeness though. I like how in the show the characters seem to be very aware that their relationship with this rear end in a top hat is toxic. When he comes back Frenchie a mix of relieved and guilty. massive spider fucked around with this message at 12:38 on Sep 9, 2020 |
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Sep 9, 2020 12:33
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Ennis never comes off as honest in any presumed critiques because he always revels so much in them. The Boys is not the worst example of this, but take a look at something like Crossed where there's a rape every 20 pages. (or don't)
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Sep 9, 2020 12:51
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Open Source Idiom posted:Because that's what's attractive about fascism and toxic masculinity. Fash boys want to be the biggest swingingest dick in the room, they want to take and own and destroy and act without consequence. That's the appeal. Yeah, not buying it. Everything about the Butcher-Raynor relationship in the comics is written in such a way as to denigrate Raynor and make Butcher look strong. Butcher is always on top and in control of this woman who is ostensibly his superior as an authority figure, and that's basically it. That is the whole deal. There's no subversion, he never has to come to Raynor grovelling because he needs her like in the show. It's very gross. Outside of the superhero plot, the comic The Boys is basically a dialogue between a sensitive, "woke" schlubby 2000's guy and an aggressive, bro-y, homophobic misogynist "Cool Guy", where the "Cool Guy" gets the last word in order to justify his point of view in every single exchange, except for the last one. I went back and reread the comics before the show started, and it's insane how often Butcher gets the last line. And sure, you can argue that showing that he was wrong about murdering superheroes means that he de facto wrong about everything else, but the books certainly aren't interested in doing the legwork to spell that out, or even exploring the notion. Even at the height of his monstrosity, the comics never really turn on Butcher: he goes out calm and collected, assuring Hughie that people like Hughie need people like him. And ultimately there was no need for it to be that way. The TV show is a living testament to the fact that you don't need to spend so much effort making your fascist rear end in a top hat character look cool. TV Butcher is a far more pathetic, and interesting, character than Comics Butcher, and the show doesn't have to spend 90% of its run-time making him look cool to get the point across. Old Kentucky Shark fucked around with this message at 13:04 on Sep 9, 2020 |
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Sep 9, 2020 13:01
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Bust Rodd posted:The only thing I can clearly remember from what I read 10 years ago is Hughie's face covered in period blood and everyone on the team stifling their laughter. I think that pretty much shows that Ennis has never gone down on a woman, because it is physically impossible not to notice menstruation when going downtown. Source: my own experience as a goth teenager, it remains the worst thing I've ever tasted
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Sep 9, 2020 13:09
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I agree that the show is a doing a better job than the comic book at communicating the same message. I am deeply saddened that people are harassing Stormfront's actress. I genuinely don't remember this sort of "The actor who plays a villain is a bad person IRL" thing that seems to have evolved as an extremely weird zoomer-based reactionary woke-ism that just sucks insanely bad. I think maybe it's teens who grew up watching leftists on Twitter, and are mimicking the sounds they make without understand why we were making them? I dunno, but it's the first thing that pops into my head whenever I see a "the kids are all right" take, is this wall of 18-21 year olds being like "Fight Club is PRO-FASCISM because the fascists, who are depicted as mentally ill loser incels who live in a shack and worship a crazy person, are tough and organized!". I know we didn't have social media in high school, but if you opened your mouth to be like "Edward Norton is a racist because he played a Neo-Nazi in American History X" you would get dunked on into oblivion.
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Sep 9, 2020 13:18
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ZearothK posted:I think that pretty much shows that Ennis has never gone down on a woman, because it is physically impossible not to notice menstruation when going downtown. Now, now - it just proves that he's never gone down on a menstruating woman. And that he didn't bother to learn the truth of it, of course.
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Sep 9, 2020 13:20
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Bust Rodd posted:
People were walking up to JK Simmons on the streets, congradulating him for "keeping up the good fight". This was back in the 90's, when he was playing Schillinger, a Nazi gang leader, on Oz. It's not a new phenomena.
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Sep 9, 2020 14:05
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Open Source Idiom posted:People were walking up to JK Simmons on the streets, congradulating him for "keeping up the good fight". This was back in the 90's, when he was playing Schillinger, a Nazi gang leader, on Oz. Maybe they were really against spider themed vigilantes.
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Sep 9, 2020 14:10
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BurritoJustice posted:
This was definitely set up to be some sort of woke "gotcha" moment but good on the actress for having an understanding of the point of the character and the problems with why people may be identifying with her. Bust Rodd posted:I agree that the show is a doing a better job than the comic book at communicating the same message. It seems like zoomers have internalized a lot of the online culture war stuff from the mid-10s, where marginalized people raising a ruckus on social media was seen as the way to agitate for positive change within harmful institutions. However that strategy has metastasized into something weirdly gross and completely devoid of any sort of analysis of power, material conditions, etc. where now it's mostly used to hash out interpersonal grievances or build your social media brand. If she's really getting harassed then that's terrible and hopefully Amazon or the showrunners will say something about it.
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Sep 9, 2020 14:29
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I haven't read the comics but Butcher kind of seems like a Punisher parody himself. GoGoGadgetChris posted:Yeah they're really writing a check with Stormfront that I hope they can cash. She is an actual Nazi that fans are thinking is Cool, and Neat, and Powerful. The poor actress is on instagram telling people to stop saying they're "On Team Stormfront" Yet another reason they should have released all the episodes at once
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Sep 9, 2020 14:30
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Mat Cauthon posted:This was definitely set up to be some sort of woke "gotcha" moment but good on the actress for having an understanding of the point of the character and the problems with why people may be identifying with her.
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Sep 9, 2020 14:54
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Fuel to the fire: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qz8LmEyA83c Still, I think this kind of controversy is good for the show overall. Even bad publicity is still publicity. The problem with stupid people thinking that actors *are* the characters they play is as old as time, or at least as theatre, and it won't go away anytime soon. Edit: If anything, this is a cadeau to Aya Cash who's knocking it out of the park. I can't wait to see her mask slip further and further off during the rest of the season. OG Stormfront was way too on the nose. But Lady Stormfront makes fascism look cool - until you stop to think about it. Swollen Member fucked around with this message at 15:01 on Sep 9, 2020 |
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Sep 9, 2020 14:56
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The dude who played Joffrey on Game of Thrones is great for this. Evidently he's an absolute sweetheart of a guy and everyone who worked with him said he was one of the nicest guys they'd ever met, and he delighted in fans of the show berating him and telling him he was a monster because that meant he did a good job.
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Sep 9, 2020 14:58
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drat, they're only 3 episodes in and people are ragging on the show for Stormfront's characterization? We're not even halfway done with the season; we don't really know what her characterization is yet.
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Sep 9, 2020 15:09
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Anecdotal, yes, but from a stroll through twitter it looks like there are a lot more people complaining about people complaining about/stanning Stormfront than there are people actually complaining about/stanning Stormfront
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Sep 9, 2020 15:16
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PostNouveau posted:drat, they're only 3 episodes in and people are ragging on the show for Stormfront's characterization? We're not even halfway done with the season; we don't really know what her characterization is yet. I'm pretty sure she doesn't like minorities.
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Sep 9, 2020 15:22
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