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Important secondary information: I'm in Canada. I don't think Canada has a specific equivalent to the ADA. However, I'm in tech so I think it's more likely employers would be amenable to this. And there's excellent health care here, though now's a bad time to go anywhere medical (even to get a diagnosis) with COVID on the loose. Democratic Pirate posted:Move to the Midwest or East coast and get a remote job with a west coast company? Please! No jokes. Quackles fucked around with this message at 21:58 on Sep 5, 2020 |
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Sep 5, 2020 21:49
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Quackles posted:Important secondary information: I think if you’re honest with your career field, do they allow flex time? I heard tales of one of my friends who worked as an engineer getting to work hours he wanted within reason as lobg as the job got done. Or if they don’t regularly allow flex time can you find a reason that your work doesn’t all have to by synchronized with the rest of the group?
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Sep 5, 2020 22:16
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White Chocolate posted:I think if you’re honest with your career field, do they allow flex time? I heard tales of one of my friends who worked as an engineer getting to work hours he wanted within reason as lobg as the job got done. Or if they don’t regularly allow flex time can you find a reason that your work doesn’t all have to by synchronized with the rest of the group? "Flexible hours" is at least semi-common on tech job descriptions, which is encouraging. I'm just worried that it'd be like how some companies claim "we have unlimited PTO" then look down on you if you actually use any of it - something less obvious from just the job description alone.
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Sep 5, 2020 22:26
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Anti-Hero posted:I'm just beginning what I feel could be either a very short, or very long, negotiating process for a job within an organization I'm currently employed. Jumping in kind of late here but... First, I am not surprised at all that there is no pay bump. I have never seen a topped out union guy go up in salary with a move to salary at a utility. Just doesn't happen based on skill set, negotiation (by the union), pay band restrictions, etc. Second, Are your grades and pay bands posted to your intranet? I haven't work at or with a utility yet that the information isn't completely available. Third, My experience (all of it at electric utilities) is that HR will not hire you in in the upper band. Maybe if you are gods gift to the world, maybe if they haven't been able to fill the position, but honestly it will not happen. The goal will be to put you right at the middle or below it. So find out those bands (someone you know will know). Fourth, I would ask for more money. if you came in at the mid point of the middle band then you probably have 7-10% of room. Curious who you work for and who is buying you if you want to share. Also you distribution or transmission? KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:One problem with organizations with high job security is that pay structures tend to be very rigid. You lose nothing by negotiating, and I think you have a compelling case that you would make the same money to do more work. Completely true of electric/gas utilities. When your rates and return are regulated you have to set ground rules, just how it goes. spf3million posted:Anecdotally, my company has a mix of union operators and non-union management. The first non-union management position that a union operator could step into is almost always at a lower salary than they were making in the union. Makes it hard to fill those front line supervisor positions but those who do take that initial step down in pay have a much higher ceiling for future advancement. We run into this all the time (I work at one of the 5 biggest utilities in the US). Most of the time the union guys only leave for management because they have families and can't be on the road or on call as much. Lockback posted:^^That, though I think in the situation your describing I'd expect it'd be tighter since this role sounds like its first-line management. Additionally, with a range there is usually a mark where they say "You cannot come into this role above this line", usually 120% of midpoint.So if they say they are already 7% above, they probably still have room but not a ton. Yeah the bands most likely (in my utility experience) are much tighter at that level. I don't have my works pay chart handy but my supervisor is basically topped out in the upper 1/3 and at $100K, a new supervisor is making $80K in the bottom 1/3. The mid is probably around $87K. It will all vary some but I have found most utilities to be very similar in how the operate and pay.
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Sep 6, 2020 03:08
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spwrozek posted:Jumping in kind of late here but... As I understand it, there are increasing numbers of salary grades on the non-union side of the company. Each position has a single salary grade assigned to it, and that grade has a single range. There is no chance of multiple salary grades being an option for a single position. The information on the salary grades are not available, or at least not readily and I haven't dug much on our intranet. It's definitely not advertised. My manager, whom I'm guessing is a grade 15, claims to not know the ranges for each grade. The position I'm being offered is a salary grade 13. I've seen position postings for salary grades as high as 16, which was for a financial controller who reported directly to the VP of Finance; my gut feeling is that the salary grades top out at 17 for execs; the CEO has a contract negotiated by the board and wouldn't have a grade assigned. Grades 13 and 14 are typically assigned to supervisors and managers, but the position offered to me is unique in that it's an engineer position but requires a high degree of education and technical knowledge (power system relaying and controls) and so it's been assigned a higher grade than other engineering positions. There are some supervision duties laid out, but really no direct reporting relationships. I would just be expected to direct technicians on day-to-day projects (I'm currently employed as one of said technicians). My manager talked me up to HR and negotiated first on my behalf to get me above midpoint. He told me direct that the midpoint for Grade 13 was $118K, and my offer letter was for ~$126K, so they offered me about 7% above midpoint. As said before, that's a completely lateral move from my hourly rate on the union side. I played around with some midpoint & range calculations and came up with some numbers in excel. If we assume a typical spread of 50%, their initial offer is 89% of the max. For spread of 40% the offer represents 92%, etc. As others have said in the thread it's highly likely that the salary spread is much tighter than the 50% that is typical, so I'm trying to get a feel for where this might be and make a counter offer accordingly. I was thinking of countering in the $135k-$140k range, which is the top end of salary spreads between 40-50%. I'm really overthinking this but it's fun to try and reverse engineer things and get a good number. I don't expect them to budge much if any, given what folks have said in the thread. As to your question about who I work for, we are super small peanuts if you work for a top 5 national utility. I live in Alaska, and we are the largest utility. We are also the one's doing the acquiring of a separate utility. We are transmission, distribution, AND generation (pretty common for utilities to provide all 3 up here). Google searching should fill in the details. Anti-Hero fucked around with this message at 23:38 on Sep 6, 2020 |
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Sep 6, 2020 23:31
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Anti-Hero posted:My manager talked me up to HR and negotiated first on my behalf to get me above midpoint. He told me direct that the midpoint for Grade 13 was $118K, and my offer letter was for ~$126K, so they offered me about 7% above midpoint. As said before, that's a completely lateral move from my hourly rate on the union side. If I were in your managers shoes and you asked for huge amount more (again assuming the numbers are true), I'd be a little sour. Asking for a small token increase just to show you're not afraid to negotiate seems like the play here. I'd be more inclined to try to give you a few extra $k if you keep your counter reasonable. I feel like I wouldn't budge if you asked for $10k+.
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Sep 6, 2020 23:51
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spf3million posted:Honestly, if those really are the right numbers, I have a hard time seeing how you get more out of this offer. It very rarely makes sense for someone to get hired into the top of a pay band regardless of how good you are. And even if you did, your annual merit increases would be very small regardless of performance since you're capped within that pay band and the bands increase marginally with COL/inflation. The higher you are above the midpoint the smaller your annual raises are. It's also an open secret that this position is a temporary stop on my way to being the new department manager, to the point that HR asked him after the job offer was extended "is this the right job for him r.e. pay disparity?" I'm also to negotiate directly with HR and keep my manager out of it. But yeah, I see your point exactly. I will be happy if they give me a couple grand over the initial offer - I'm just trying to play the game so I get to that figure without selling myself short. I have colleagues that have received incentive bonuses as well to move from the union to a non-union position. The other engineer in this role was given a cash payment to account for the pension contributions made on his behalf that he loses because he wasn't vested. He didn't even have to negotiate for this, it was offered to him. Honestly, this whole reason right here really soured me on the offer letter because there was no mention of that in mine.
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Sep 7, 2020 00:03
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Quackles posted:Please! No jokes. I don't think this is entirely a joke. You could look for a job with a remote company (say in a Singapore / Aus office) where your work schedule would align with theirs. Anti-Hero posted:I have colleagues that have received incentive bonuses as well to move from the union to a non-union position. The other engineer in this role was given a cash payment to account for the pension contributions made on his behalf that he loses because he wasn't vested. He didn't even have to negotiate for this, it was offered to him. Honestly, this whole reason right here really soured me on the offer letter because there was no mention of that in mine. Are you in the same situation, or are you vested?
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Sep 7, 2020 16:45
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Are you in the same situation, or are you vested? I am in the same situation.
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Sep 7, 2020 17:38
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Anti-Hero posted:As I understand it, there are increasing numbers of salary grades on the non-union side of the company. Each position has a single salary grade assigned to it, and that grade has a single range. There is no chance of multiple salary grades being an option for a single position. On the first point what they normally do is break the range into 1/3's. Say the range is 106 - 130 with the 118 mid you mentioned. If you have no experience in the role HR will try to bring you in at 106-114, If you are experienced and ready to dive in 114-122, then top third of 124 -130, which HR is very reluctant to put people in (got to have that carrot out there!). If the middle is 118k then you are probably pretty close to the top of what they will do for you at 126K. I would push for $130K though and ask about the Pension thing. Your manager is 99% positive a liar on the pay bands though. You have to know these things for budgets, pay raises, etc. You are right though easy to figure out based on your clues. With the COL up there the may seems pretty low. I was offered a job up the road at MEA that was a high position than I have now and less pay (way less after COL adjustments). I think you can squeeze out a bit more though so good luck on that.
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Sep 8, 2020 01:28
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spwrozek posted:On the first point what they normally do is break the range into 1/3's. Say the range is 106 - 130 with the 118 mid you mentioned. If you have no experience in the role HR will try to bring you in at 106-114, If you are experienced and ready to dive in 114-122, then top third of 124 -130, which HR is very reluctant to put people in (got to have that carrot out there!). If the middle is 118k then you are probably pretty close to the top of what they will do for you at 126K. I would push for $130K though and ask about the Pension thing. Thanks for the feedback, this is very helpful. On your second point, yeah I suspect my manager has been selectively truthful. Earlier in the thread I stated that said manager told me this offer was more than what the other engineer is making, which is a lie. I put together a nice counter offer email, and I'm pretty happy with it except for a single line after I request the additional salary bump. quote:However, given my extensive experience in the essential functions of the position, the relative scarcity of qualified individuals to perform this work in the Soft Drink industry, and intended commitment to be a long-term resource to Coca-Cola, I firmly believe a salary of 1 billion sodas is appropriate. Recognizing that this starting salary might anchor me for the rest of my time with Coca-Cola in this position, I’d be open to continued discussions. Bolded line came from my partner, but I'm leaning towards it being too passive and giving HR an out to dismiss my counter out of hand.
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Sep 8, 2020 03:45
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I think it's too hand-wringing, and negotiates against yourself in a way. I'm thinking you need to be more assertive on the small bump request rather than trying to do it from a defensive position. But I have little experience in this area and get other opinions from other goons.
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Sep 8, 2020 04:22
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You don't need to justify. I want this money so I can take a vacation to Haiti and laugh at orphans is just as justifiable as anything else. I don't mind the "I want to stay here for a long time" sentiment though, in my experience HR eats that poo poo up. In the Tech Industry that may be more true because we jump around all the time.
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Sep 8, 2020 05:07
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Alright, I take those thoughts into consideration and send something out tomorrow. I have to give them a response by COB. I've never successfully negotiated a bump in pay, if you guys can't tell  What I want to say is "I know what you are paying the other guy who does this job, and I want more because I'll be training him to do his own job". Sigh.
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Sep 8, 2020 07:29
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Wasn't sure where else to put this - anyone negotiate their rent? Would love some tips/stories on how you did it. Got my renewal offer and they had the nerve to raise the rent, uhhh lmfao no there's a TON of places offering 8 weeks free right now  I responded that the identical apartment right below mine is showing the same rate as what I'm paying now, so after applying the 8 weeks special, it's not reasonable to have a higher effective rent on the renewal offer
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Sep 8, 2020 15:19
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air- posted:Wasn't sure where else to put this - anyone negotiate their rent? Would love some tips/stories on how you did it. Our rent was going to stay the same for the coming year, but I pointed out to the leasing office that comparable units were going for $300 less on their website. They had to contact corporate about our request and they ended up reducing our rent by $200 -- I took that without countering because we weren't going to move anyway! But this complex -- and metro area -- is experiencing a lot of vacancies, and coincidentally the four units directly adjacent to us vacated within the last month, so they may have realized it was better to keep us around for less. We've been here a ridiculously long time and have been good tenants, so I mentioned that too. Also of note: they've tried to jack up our rent quickly the last few years and I've contacted them in the past about negotiating lower increases, so that could've been a factor in my success too. YMMV.
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Sep 8, 2020 15:33
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I tried and failed but that was a while ago and there was huge demand in my area. I have a friend in the industry and he showed me some things. If it's a corporation, they: A) know basically everything about your market. B) have huge chains of process and control to use that information to keep people from getting deals. I did manage to move between two properties with the same ownership and get all fees waived. Front office staff said they couldn't do it. So I contacted the divisional manager and asked him. Both buildings were in his umbrella and my friend told me that was probably the person with authority. He was kind of surprised to hear from a renter but was happy to make it happen. If it's an individual person or even a local operation not paying thousands for software, prob a different animal.
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Sep 8, 2020 16:52
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Xguard86 posted:Front office staff said they couldn't do it. So I contacted the divisional manager and asked him. Both buildings were in his umbrella and my friend told me that was probably the person with authority. He was kind of surprised to hear from a renter but was happy to make it happen. I should add it's a corporate property management company in my case, the front office staff just responded actually - they have to escalate it up the food chain to a property manager. Not surprised to hear that and I hope we don't have to go back and forth too much since all I'm asking for is the same concession and pricing as the unit below mine, I think that's pretty reasonable...
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Sep 8, 2020 17:04
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air- posted:Wasn't sure where else to put this - anyone negotiate their rent? Would love some tips/stories on how you did it. An identical unit in the same complex, though different building, was several hundred cheaper and the corporate management said to move or the pay the increase. I signed for the new place and had to move across the complex.
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Sep 8, 2020 17:27
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air- posted:Wasn't sure where else to put this - anyone negotiate their rent? Would love some tips/stories on how you did it. On every renewal with proposed rent increase (typically 2.5-3%) at my current location I've asked my landlord if I could just keep the same rent by email. Every time they've relented, no fuss.
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Sep 8, 2020 18:09
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air- posted:I should add it's a corporate property management company in my case, the front office staff just responded actually - they have to escalate it up the food chain to a property manager. Not surprised to hear that and I hope we don't have to go back and forth too much since all I'm asking for is the same concession and pricing as the unit below mine, I think that's pretty reasonable... But think of the better view you get from being ~13 feet above that unit! The air is cleaner and you leave the hustle and bustle of the streets faaaaar away! I got suckered into paying more for a higher unit in my last apartment. In fairness, the view did improve substantially and we were on the top level so paying to not have upstairs neighbors was worth it.
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Sep 8, 2020 18:13
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Not a Children posted:On every renewal with proposed rent increase (typically 2.5-3%) at my current location I've asked my landlord if I could just keep the same rent by email. Every time they've relented, no fuss. Care to share some of the language you've used? Sometimes they've relented for me, other times it hasn't been successful. Here is verbatim what I used with my landlord in case it helps anyone else, I don't see anything wrong with sharing it: quote:After reviewing the renewal offer, the proposed rent increase is higher than expected and more than we would prefer as continuous tenants. Is it possible there is any room for negotiation to lower the proposed rent increase, given our continued tenancy? I wasn't ballsy enough to ask to keep the same rent since effectively they would be taking a cut on inflation. Maybe I should change the wording next time around?
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Sep 8, 2020 20:12
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"Always ask for more than you're willing to accept" is on Page 1 of the Negotiating 101 Textbook. You need to leave them room to feel like they "won" by negotiating you down to a number you are actually secretly OK with.
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Sep 8, 2020 22:41
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If they're on top of their stuff they know ~ how long it will take to rent to someone else. From there it's a spreadsheet* to determine if it's worth more to cut a deal or just say no and risk you moving out. Idk how much you can really change this on your end. Might as well ask of course but beyond that ... * The professional systems go beyond that but doesn't particularly matter for this scenario
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Sep 8, 2020 22:48
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Democratic Pirate posted:I got suckered into paying more for a higher unit in my last apartment. In fairness, the view did improve substantially and we were on the top level so paying to not have upstairs neighbors was worth it. My rule for apartment living was always top floor. It's worth every single cent more to not have neighbors above you. Incidental bonus for better views, if applicable.
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Sep 8, 2020 22:48
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Getting outside the scope of the thread but for high-rises I never found the views worth the money. I stop noticing them after a few weeks. Plus then you spend more minutes of your life on or waiting for the elevator. 2-4 floor walk-ups though, absolutely top floor or bust.
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Sep 9, 2020 00:55
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spf3million posted:Getting outside the scope of the thread but for high-rises I never found the views worth the money. I stop noticing them after a few weeks. Plus then you spend more minutes of your life on or waiting for the elevator.
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Sep 9, 2020 00:58
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Dik Hz posted:Top floor or nothing. I can't stand neighbors above me. Top floor is more expensive and has the sun heating up your place all year round so you rack up an incredible bill for the aircon
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Sep 9, 2020 02:50
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BabyFur Denny posted:Top floor is more expensive and has the sun heating up your place all year round so you rack up an incredible bill for the aircon if you live in a cool climate, you get free heat from your neighbors below you in the winter
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Sep 9, 2020 18:04
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Inner Light posted:Care to share some of the language you've used? Sometimes they've relented for me, other times it hasn't been successful. Here's what I used: "To Whom it May Concern I received the notice of renewal of my lease. I am interested in renewing! Would it be possible to renew at my current rate, or are the proposed terms set in stone?" That was to my lease management company - who confirmed it was ok with the owner. YMMV Guinness posted:My rule for apartment living was always top floor. It's worth every single cent more to not have neighbors above you. After living below someone for ~4 years and transitioning to a top floor apartment: Oh god yes it's worth every penny Plus I get fantastic sunset views now
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Sep 9, 2020 18:35
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why would you do that, at minimum you should just say "I am interested in renewing my lease at the current rate"
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Sep 9, 2020 18:37
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:why would you do that, at minimum you should just say "I am interested in renewing my lease at the current rate" Well for me it was because I have a pretty good deal and landlords aren't required to even offer you a renewal, so I wanted to tread carefully how I worded it. I've been a good tenant but there's nothing stopping them from saying "meh, I want $500/mo more and think I can get it, not going to deal with this guy and offer a renewal.
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Sep 9, 2020 18:55
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:why would you do that, at minimum you should just say "I am interested in renewing my lease at the current rate" I'm posting what worked for me with this manager (who I have a familiar relationship with) in 2017 and I've copy-pasted every year since. Never claimed it was an ideal strat! I was (and am still) renting quite a bit under market and frankly don't want to move, so I did tip my hand a bit so they don't jump to "let's rescind this renewal offer to bring this up to market rate" Not a Children fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Sep 9, 2020 |
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Sep 9, 2020 18:59
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Inner Light posted:Well for me it was because I have a pretty good deal and landlords aren't required to even offer you a renewal, so I wanted to tread carefully how I worded it. I've been a good tenant but there's nothing stopping them from saying "meh, I want $500/mo more and think I can get it, not going to deal with this guy and offer a renewal.
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Sep 9, 2020 22:49
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And how empty a lot of apartment buildings are getting right now.
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Sep 9, 2020 22:56
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Had a great job interview! But I made the mistake of giving a number (a 30% pay increase on my current position) and having the recruiter go "Oh, yeah, that's right in our ballpark... maybe even a little on the low side." Never say a number. JFC.
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Sep 10, 2020 15:51
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oops, well, at least it's a number you are independently happy with
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Sep 10, 2020 16:19
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Dik Hz posted:I think you're substantially under-valuing how valuable a stable drama-free tenant who pays their rent on time every month is to your average landlord. Yeah. Given the pandemic and that my tenant is a quiet nerd who plays D&D every Sunday you're a goon, aren't you, Ben?, I'm considering lowering his rent just to keep him.
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Sep 10, 2020 16:21
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:oops, well, at least it's a number you are independently happy with Will he be happy with only a 10% increase on his current salary, which is what they are going to firmly offer, though edit re: the post above this: do yourself a huge favor and never admit to being a landlord on The Something Awful Forums
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Sep 10, 2020 16:42
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Well the recruiter said it was on the low side so now you know to hold hard there if they try to go any lower.
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Sep 10, 2020 16:44
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