|
cock hero flux posted:a very relevant take for the, generously, 2% of the community who play those modes. Also not even really right given that in my experience soldier is pretty loving important in 6s which is why he's 1/3 of the team composition. Soldiers are the weakest in 6s and mid rung in HL. I’m not sure how if they aren’t the best class when people can play at a higher level then they would be unbalanced. Spies can dominate a pub, that doesn’t mean they aren’t the weakest class in the game. I’ll say it again, just because a soldier is versatile doesn’t mean they need nerfing. If anything other classes need buffed. The problem is the game went to negation mechanics which is inherently unfun to play against instead of fixing what was actually broken.
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 17:14
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 22:51 |
|
|
Revert the axtinguisher, including all related weapon switch times. If you're concerned about it being too powerful nerf the degreaser so not only does the fire do less afterburn damage it also does almost no direct damage. It's suddenly a utility weapon for reflects and combos only.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 17:15
|
|
|
Soldier only gets run because you're not allowed more than one demo. Soldier might seem overpowered if you only play casually, but that's just because high-skill players who've been playing the game a lot will gravitate towards classes with fun movement like soldier and scout and demo instead of classes with boring tedious movement like heavy. So you're going to run into more good soldiers than good heavies, which distorts your perception.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 17:19
|
|
|
Anyway the only "overpowered" class is Medic, but it's overpowered in a "the game is built around him and his limitations" way rather than in a "he needs a nerf" way.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 17:24
|
|
|
cock hero flux posted:1/3 of the team composition. . . . Because of class limits.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 17:31
|
|
|
Jabor posted:Soldier only gets run because you're not allowed more than one demo. I think that's understating things. Heavy has a very low skill ceiling, it's not really a complex or interesting class to play. The "slow, tedious" movement is a limitation that makes the class actually bad, TF2 is fundamentally a game about positioning and heavy has the least control of positioning out of all the classes. Even when the heavy can stake out an advantageous position the opponent gets to choose the range of the engagement. It's not a good class to push with because the demo or soldier can push farther given the limited duration of the uber, while also dealing at least as much damage. functionally in HL the heavy's only real job is being a human sentry gun sitting on the cart, and maybe to throw the occasional sandwich. You could literally put a minisentry on the cart and just delete heavy and nothing of value would be lost. You can make anything work in casual play because it's casual, but still, if you are playing "serious" then basically any of the other damage classes do better.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 17:40
|
|
|
Gravitas Shortfall posted:I didn't consider your suggestion a nerf at all, and is probably correct. It's more the idea of nerfing airblast, the only thing that lets the pyro even vaguely attempt to go toe-to-toe with a soldier or demo. I'm generally fine with the 1v1 scenario and ideally any change shouldn't hurt the pyro too badly there; the original airblast made it really punishing to try to fight projectile classes with anything less than perfect reflects. However, the buffed airblast had the side effect of making it really easy to stuff ubers and drastically increased the pyro's capacity to keep spam off of sentries, which are both pretty obnoxious. As in the Wrangler example, something can have a useful niche that's not overpowered per se and still be bad for the game. Oxygenpoisoning posted:Soldiers are the weakest in 6s and mid rung in HL. I’m not sure how if they aren’t the best class when people can play at a higher level then they would be unbalanced. Spies can dominate a pub, that doesn’t mean they aren’t the weakest class in the game. The standard 6s composition is just 4 classes at their respective limits, which doesn't say anything about their comparative usefulness, but scouts seem to flex more often than soldiers. Which seems odd if soldiers are actually the weakest link. Is that just because most soldier mains aren't good enough to hack it as scout/sniper in high level play? Is it that much easier to get them back in the fight when there's no medic following them to top off jump damage? Similarly, rankings for HL are going to be a bit skewed because gameplay is constrained by the class limits; aggressively bombing the enemy is going to be a lot worse when most of your team can't keep up. I would think that a better test of merit would be how frequently a class would be picked in a more open format. Like, if you started replacing classes in a HL team with additional soldiers, at what point do you hit the optimal number of soldiers? How would that compare to other classes? Regardless, I agree with the premise that a generalist-specialist model is fine. Even if the soldier is the "best" overall other classes can still beat soldier within their respective niches, some of which are quite broad (demo/scout.) the holy poopacy fucked around with this message at 17:45 on Sep 22, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 17:43
|
|
|
Paul MaudDib posted:I think that's understating things. Heavy has a very low skill ceiling, it's not really a complex or interesting class to play. actually heavy with a shotgun is the most skillful class in the game
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 17:47
|
|
|
Oxygenpoisoning posted:Soldiers are the weakest in 6s If they were the weakest in 6s, then they wouldn't be played. What you mean to say is that they're only the 3rd strongest class in the entire game. And again, in my experience, when they decide to offclass 6s teams tend to switch off a scout before they switch off a soldier(although around the time I stopped playing 6s I admit the established doctrine was shifting toward offclassing the the roaming soldier occasionally). Jabor posted:Soldier only gets run because you're not allowed more than one demo. This really is nonsense, the reason that high-skill players gravitate towards soldier(and scout and demo) rather than heavy isn't because he has "fun movement" it's because he's literally just better. Like, seriously, Soldier is just a straight up better class than heavy. And a big part of that is his movement, yes, which can be described as "fun" but also as "extremely powerful". What makes Soldier so strong is that he has: the most versatile damage output in the game, top tier mobility, and is the second tankiest class in the game. The fact that he's one of the best classes at all engagement ranges and has a powerful splash damage weapon, high health and extreme mobility means that he is, in any one-on-one fight, able to dictate the parameters of the engagement to take advantage of the enemy's weaknesses. If he's fighting a scout, he can hang back at mid range and force them to advance through a wall of splash damage. If he's fighting a demoman he can jump in to get close and bully them at short range. If he's fighting a sniper he can harass them with rockets and take a fast jumping route to end up right in their face. And if he's fighting a pyro or a heavy they are basically just hosed because he is better at their intended job than they are. Now, in a competitive environment with strongly coordinated teams he isn't supreme purely because the other team's demoman is guaranteed to have at least one really good scout near him at all times as well as a full tank of overheal, which means that he can't evade the demoman's strong-zone without ending up in the scout's and his own advantage is mitigated, but even in this ideal soldier-countering scenario he's still strong enough that any given team will still rather have 2 of him than have any of 5 other classes in the game. That really is the issue with him: the counter to soldier is like, 3 other people working together. So he's merely really good in comp, where he has to wait to take advantage of slip-ups in the other team's cohesion rather than just continuously murdering them. In anything short of comp(which I will remind you is about 99% of the game as it is actually played), a halfway competent soldier is basically an unstoppable force, and a bad soldier will still be more effective than pretty much everyone else. I, a bad soldier, can single-handedly crush any casual match without rocket-jumping, and can top-score on community servers that have moderately skilled and experienced players without much effort. Again, without rocket-jumping, which is to say: without using an extremely powerful component of soldier's kit I am able to defeat players that are much better than me as long as they also aren't playing soldier. That's the issue with him: to beat a soldier you have to be much, much better than he is or you have to working in a coordinated fashion with multiple other people in order to make sure you have someone to cover all of his options(which basically does not happen outside of comp).
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 17:51
|
|
|
I'm not great and never got into comp, but I tend to play Soldier/Pyro and Heavy is one of my least-played classes because the former are fun and I can get stuff done with them, and while I can sometimes kill a whole lot of people as Heavy it's really loving boring.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 17:55
|
|
|
Since the medic attachment buff a few years ago Scout became more dominant than Soldier in 6s. Pocket scouts now take Ubers with the demo because they can output the most damage and chase anyone whose trying to kite the Uber. Who changes off classes depends on what point of the map it is and the players skills. I only watch NA, but usually a soldier will switch off to pickup heavy and a scout will switch off for engineer on last, leaving you one of each. Some teams only switch the engineer in, and will sit in spawn to quick switch the instant the gun goes down.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 18:00
|
|
|
Johnny Joestar posted:actually heavy with a shotgun is the most skillful class in the game You even get a one-shot kill in the form of your fingers.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 18:01
|
|
|
Once you start fighting opponents that can count to 4, soldier starts feeling a little less overpowered.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 18:02
|
|
|
Victory Position posted:You even get a one-shot kill in the form of your fingers. it's impossible to counter a heavy using exclusively the shotgun who has up to 450 health and good aim. this is a fact.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 18:09
|
|
|
.
harrygomm fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Jan 28, 2021 |
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 18:11
|
|
|
Soldier absolutely needs a nerf because nobody loving plays 6's anymore. Its like saying "demoknight isn't oppressive! in my medieval lobbies..."
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 18:25
|
|
|
.
harrygomm fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Jan 28, 2021 |
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 18:29
|
|
|
Please make scout stronger and faster but also hotter plz and thx
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 18:38
|
|
|
Soldier is strong but calling him mid tier is appropriate imo. His weakness is that he only has four rockets with a long reload and you're probably going to be a rocket down from bombing in to fight someone. He's also weak after a confrontation, unlike the demo who has ammo to take a series of fights without issue.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 18:42
|
|
|
Soldier isn't best at any combat range, but he's in the top four of every combat range. Then, he's something like third at mobility, and second-tankiest. He's not a "jack of all trades", he's top-tier at all trades. But yeah, this: harrygomm posted:instead of making the game less fun when playing soldier why not bring the weaker classes up in power so that they too are fun It looks like this discussion started by someone saying "talking about class nerfs is dumb because they're all worse than soldier". I haven't actually seen anyone say "nerf soldier". Ditocoaf fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Sep 22, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 19:14
|
|
|
Ditocoaf posted:It looks like this discussion started by someone saying "talking about class nerfs is dumb because they're all worse than soldier". I haven't actually seen anyone say "nerf soldier". guy right above me said Peanut President posted:Soldier absolutely needs a nerf because nobody loving plays 6's anymore. Its like saying "demoknight isn't oppressive! in my medieval lobbies..."
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 19:16
|
|
|
harrygomm posted:guy right above me said Ah never mind, I guess I missed that. Still my idea was to point out where this started, saying "don't nerf anyone because they're all in the shadow of The Good Class." I was agreeing with you, buff everyone else until they're as good as soldier.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 19:21
|
|
|
harrygomm posted:instead of making the game less fun when playing soldier why not bring the weaker classes up in power so that they too are fun This is a generally better idea than nerfing, yes, but is also the opposite of how TF2 balance changes work most of the time. Balancing in this game is always this horrible rear end-backwards thing where things that are very slightly too strong get taken out behind the shed and shot and then left to rot for literal years, things that are too weak are given occasional pity buffs that accomplish nothing, and things that are hilariously broken are left that way for, in some cases, over a decade. harrygomm posted:soldiers off class the most now, that has changed since you left like everyone else mentioned with the attachment change quote:the soldier engaging the most successfully at all ranges is nonsense. scouts get in close easily except through small chokepoints where demos would be better than soldier anyway. snipers move out of the way of slowly moving rockets and can stump the soldier really easily at any range where they can dodge slowly moving rockets. if hes fighting a demo at bullying range hes in self damage + pipe range. The gist of that preceding paragraph is: yeah, the other good classes have ranges in which they're stronger than Soldier. But a Soldier who knows how to take advantage of his mobility gets to choose what range he fights in. If he's fighting a scout, he can force that scout to have to run towards him in order to close the distance to a range the scout can fight better in, and if he tags the scout with like, 1 splash on the way in, that Scout will now die to one rocket at close range which the soldier barely even has to aim, while the scout will still need 2 very clean close-up hits to take out the soldier. If the Scout is significantly better than the Soldier and fighting in open terrain, then he can close the gap without taking any damage and land 2 good shots to kill the Soldier, sure, but if they're at about the same skill level Soldier is come out on top most of the time. Now look at Demoman. Demoman loves to fight at midrange, and if he fights soldier at mid-range who is of equal skill, he will probably win. But the Soldier has no reason to stay there, he can simply jump in to rapidly close the gap. One rocket jump does not change the fact that the Demoman needs to land 2 pipes to kill the Soldier, so he has essentially just changed engagement ranges completely for free. Once at close range he can easily kill the Demoman with 2 rockets aimed vaguely in his direction, while the demoman needs to actually physically hit him with 2 pipes. If the Demoman is significantly better than the Soldier, he might be able to do this, or even nail him mid-jump, but if they're at about the same level then the Soldier is gonna win most of the time. And if the Demoman decides to try and take advantage of his own mobility he will not be able to achieve the same result, because he will take more damage and he already has less health, meaning that it will likely actually cost him enough health that he will die in less rockets. Sniper is much the same: Soldier is never gonna kill sniper spamming rockets at him at max range, and if he tries to just sit there and do that for long enough the sniper is eventually going to blow his head off. But he doesn't have to sit there: he can throw out a few rockets and then jump to close the distance. Once he's reached even mid range he can start seriously pressuring the sniper, and at close range the sniper is essentially helpless. Now, if the sniper is able to weave through the spam rockets then quickly track and headshot a fast-moving airborne target, he will beat the soldier. But he if fails to do this, he is now dead. All of the burden in this fight is on the sniper to display higher skill in order to not die. The default outcome is that the soldier kills him. That's how fighting this class feels: it's not 2 people fighting to see who comes out on top, it's 1 person who has to perform an action very skillfully or die. Now let's look at, say, Scout vs Demoman, for example. These 2 are also very strong classes, but, notably, they actually have weaknesses. If a scout gets in super close to a demoman, even if the scout is on low health by the time he gets there, he probably wins. Meanwhile, if the Demoman is able to keep his distance and shut the Scout out with carefully placed stickies or nail him with pipes as he approaches, the Demoman will win. They have ranges where they are strong, but they also, crucially, have ranges where they are weak. quote:the soldier is still a better overall kit in one class, but they by no means shut down the game because somone pressed 2
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 19:55
|
|
|
Ditocoaf posted:It looks like this discussion started by someone saying "talking about class nerfs is dumb because they're all worse than soldier". I haven't actually seen anyone say "nerf soldier". I would rather them buff other classes than nerf soldier, but if all buffs are off the table then yes, nerf soldier.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 19:55
|
|
|
I wish the Harry Gomm videos were still on YouTube.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 20:04
|
|
|
harrygomm posted:guy right above me said its me I'll yell nerf soldier until the end of the universe. Nerf demo too
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 20:28
|
|
|
Buff Sniper's SMG so that it does enough dps as sticky launcher, its only fair
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 20:29
|
|
|
Hasn't Demo has been utterly dominant in tf2 since day 1 and if every 6s team could they would run 5 demos and a medic every game forever? This is genuinely the first time I've seen someone say soldier is a better class and I've been playing since 08.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 20:35
|
|
|
You know, I'm actually curious to know what the meta would look like if matches devolved into two teams of 5 Demos and a Medic. Would Sticky Jumpers/Demoknights be viable in that kind of setting?
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 20:42
|
|
|
.
harrygomm fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Jan 28, 2021 |
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 20:46
|
|
|
.
harrygomm fucked around with this message at 02:48 on Jan 28, 2021 |
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 20:48
|
|
|
Here's the thought experiment I want to run: An "eight-lander" league, where each team is not allowed to use a designated class, for a total of nine teams each with a different composition. The "no medic" team would obviously be at the biggest disadvantage, but how would the other team types stack up in the final ranking? They don't do playoffs or anything, they just play a bunch of matches against each other until it's clear how to sort the teams. (For the sake of theorycrafting, say the teams are all of equal skill, so this ridiculous rule is the only factor.)
Ditocoaf fucked around with this message at 21:07 on Sep 22, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 21:03
|
|
|
Honestly this discussion just reminds me how much I dislike 6s as a comp format, it's just so boring of a format compared to either Prolander or Highlander(especially the former which I feel is probably the best Comp format)
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 21:07
|
|
|
Ditocoaf posted:Here's the thought experiment I want to run: An "eight-lander" league, where each team is not allowed to use a designated class, for a total of nine teams each with a different composition. The "no medic" team would obviously be at the biggest disadvantage, but how would the other team types stack up in the final ranking? They don't do playoffs or anything, they just play a bunch of matches against each other until it's clear how to sort the teams. (For the sake of theorycrafting, say the teams are all of equal skill, so this ridiculous rule is the only factor.) Probably better to have only 8 teams cause it's blatantly obvious the no medic team would probably lose every time
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 21:10
|
|
|
drrockso20 posted:Probably better to have only 8 teams cause it's blatantly obvious the no medic team would probably lose every time True. Nobody's going to actually do this, so it doesn't really make a difference to the hypothetical league, but we can spare the imaginary players this suffering.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 21:17
|
|
|
drrockso20 posted:Probably better to have only 8 teams cause it's blatantly obvious the no medic team would probably lose every time The no medic team gets to pick one player on the other team and force them to play either demoknight or trolldier
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 21:17
|
|
|
Ditocoaf posted:True. Nobody's going to actually do this, so it doesn't really make a difference to the hypothetical league, but we can spare the imaginary players this suffering. I dunno seems like the kind of wacky thing a bunch of streamers would do for a charity event or something Also my guess on how these teams would rank from best to worst; No Heavy No Pyro No Spy No Engineer No Sniper No Scout No Soldier No Demo
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 21:44
|
|
|
Jinh posted:Hasn't Demo has been utterly dominant in tf2 since day 1 and if every 6s team could they would run 5 demos and a medic every game forever? This is genuinely the first time I've seen someone say soldier is a better class and I've been playing since 08. Demo is in a weird spot where they perform massively better when they have a coordinated team with them to protect them while they continue to just sit at their preferred range and deal extreme damage. They're dominant in high-level competitive but not really outside of it. I would say that Demo is the only class that is able to actually deal with Soldiers, though, yes.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 21:51
|
|
|
Two things. RGL ran a no restrictions 6s league and it didn’t devolve into demo stacking. There were a lot of 2 demo, 2 scouts, two medics run, but the team who one ran standard line up minus a soldier. Second thing, there is a demoknight league run by Solarlight (a YouTube demo main) where it has standard 6s restrictions unless you want to run all demoknight. It was basically a way for him to flex on people.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2020 22:16
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 22:51 |
|
|
.
harrygomm fucked around with this message at 02:48 on Jan 28, 2021 |
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2020 01:28
|
|