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Sure, that would actually make a lot of sense.
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Sep 28, 2020 17:43
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Lobok posted:A bald man crashed through a window in Luthor's study? "Yes father....I will become.....bald"
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Sep 28, 2020 18:28
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I just don't get the appeal of Hawkman. Try as I might, I do not understand the fun of that character or how to make him exciting on screen. I know it's got an Egyptian reincarnation theme, but Hawkman is also a white guy usually? That's what I got from the CW at least.
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Sep 28, 2020 18:33
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SonicRulez posted:I just don't get the appeal of Hawkman. Try as I might, I do not understand the fun of that character or how to make him exciting on screen. I know it's got an Egyptian reincarnation theme, but Hawkman is also a white guy usually? That's what I got from the CW at least. He's not fun. At all. He's just there to be the fascist for Green Arrow to rail against.
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Sep 28, 2020 18:47
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Lager posted:He's not fun. At all. He's just there to be the fascist for Green Arrow to rail against. I thought that was Hal Jordan's job?
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Sep 28, 2020 21:09
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Yvonmukluk posted:I thought that was Hal Jordan's job? Also Aquaman. Five-Fathom-Fascist
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Sep 28, 2020 21:12
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Yvonmukluk posted:I thought that was Hal Jordan's job? The fascism order goes something like: Hawkman > Aquaman > Green Lantern > Flash > Batman or Superman, depending on whether it's DKR > Superman or Batman, depending on whether it's DKR > The Rest of the League Ultimately, it's fascists in tights all the way down, except for Elongated Man. And Martian Manhunter, who is a good egg. Edit: Obviously Black Canary is exempt. Double edit: The Question is on some whole other level above all of these, and is the ultra-fascist that must be argued with at all times.
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Sep 28, 2020 22:38
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Plastic Man is naked.
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Sep 28, 2020 22:48
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I stand by calling Hawkman Rapey, as he pretty much just gaslights hawkgirl into a relationship and always shits on any relationships she already has when she shows up, and he's always the one to bring it up. Some lovely writer thought this was romantic and for some reason they keep doing it. And its been around for at least 20 years as it was in the JLA cartoon, though Batman tells Carter to go gently caress himself, which honestly, is what everyone should be doing when he does. Kendra/Shiara/hawkgirl never can have her own life. And yea, DKReturns has influenced basically every modern Batman in some way, which is probably why I like Begins best out of the Trilogy because it feels more like Year One, though the Tumbler is heavily influenced by the Bat tank. Also Superman is influenced by it too, BvS has panels straight up in the movie. The only reason the government nukes Superman and Doomsday is so they can have that part of DKR in it.
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Sep 29, 2020 02:20
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Begins continually highlights that the Tumbler is stealthy, agile, and relatively small. It borrows the general military aesthetic from DKR but in other respects it's a far cry from the hulking monstrosity that is the Bat-tank.
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Sep 29, 2020 02:38
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Remember how The Dark Knight set up this massive status quo change where the police would actively be hunting Batman and Gotham would turn against him, leaving him more isolated then ever? And then in DKR it turned out Bruce twisted his ankle real bad so he quit being Batman for nearly a decade? I hate that loving movie.
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Sep 29, 2020 02:42
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twistedmentat posted:I stand by calling Hawkman Rapey, as he pretty much just gaslights hawkgirl into a relationship and always shits on any relationships she already has when she shows up, and he's always the one to bring it up. Some lovely writer thought this was romantic and for some reason they keep doing it.
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Sep 29, 2020 03:50
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Stalkery, yes absolutely in some portrayals. But that's different.
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Sep 29, 2020 04:17
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I'm sorry, Hawkman is a fascist? Is it because his power is wearing a winged harness? Blockhouse posted:Remember how The Dark Knight set up this massive status quo change where the police would actively be hunting Batman and Gotham would turn against him, leaving him more isolated then ever? And then in DKR it turned out Bruce twisted his ankle real bad so he quit being Batman for nearly a decade? Yes, yes, 100x yes and I know this isn't exactly high-quality contributing to the thread but it makes me happy. I get told how the Nolan trilogy is flawless actually and I just didn't get Rises a lot. No, I got it. It was dumb. SonicRulez fucked around with this message at 07:58 on Sep 29, 2020 |
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Sep 29, 2020 07:54
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Lager posted:Double edit: The Question is on some whole other level above all of these, and is the ultra-fascist that must be argued with at all times. How the hell is the Question "the ultra-fascist"?
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Sep 29, 2020 08:05
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BrianWilly posted:I'm just gonna say that this is not what either rape or gaslighting actually means -- and they also don't mean the same things as each other -- and it's annoying to see them used as big buzzwords like this to sound scary and serious, and leave it at that. I admit, I haven't read every Hawkman comic there is, but every time Carter shows up he goes to Hawkgirl and says "drop everything, you're coming with me, we're meant to be together" and she just kinda goes "I guess that's right? Time to drop my entire life because some random dude showed up and said we were meant to be together" and it always comes off super creepy and it utterly removes Hawkgirl's agency. Exactly the kind of poo poo guys who have trouble with the concept of consent would think was romantic. The only good Hawkman I can think of Kingdom Come where he's just killing loggers.
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Sep 29, 2020 08:10
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Rhyno complains about Meltzer putting Roy Harper with Hawkgirl in his JLA, but those were the least toxic relationships either ever had. Roy had a bright future for a minute there.
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Sep 29, 2020 08:24
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It was dumb and I hate it!
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Sep 29, 2020 09:07
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Blockhouse posted:Remember how The Dark Knight set up this massive status quo change where the police would actively be hunting Batman and Gotham would turn against him, leaving him more isolated then ever? And then in DKR it turned out Bruce twisted his ankle real bad so he quit being Batman for nearly a decade? Agreed. Rises has a lot of problems. The one I hate the most is as follows. The Joker: See the mob thinks if I kill you everything would go back to normal. But you and I know that is not how it works. The world has changed and it won't ever go back. The crazies are out and we will never stop. You are the only chance of holding back the madness and you will have to do it forever. Christopher Nolan: Actually no. By suspending civil liberties and making Batman go away the police were able to handle all crime in Gotham. No more super villains showed up. Thus making a Superhero movie where the moral is the world would be better without Superheroes. You know, like the real world.
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Sep 29, 2020 09:52
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Only Begins is good.
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Sep 29, 2020 10:12
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The Question IRL posted:Agreed. That was the weirdest thing. I like DKR more than some but it's weird how much The Dark Knight seemed to be establishing the Modern Batman status quo. With the arc for Bruce being that he was looking for a way out of Batman, who he felt was temporary, but with everything that happened, the loss of Harvey (his hoped for replacement) and the death of Rachel (his last connection to a human world) that he was then locked into it forever. That's how I read it at least so to see that he retired straight after was a real surprise. I still enjoy DKR for what it's going for though.
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Sep 29, 2020 11:18
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The Question IRL posted:Agreed. ? This is an extremely confused post. (I mean the movies are pretty confused too...) You are mixing up Rises and The Dark Knight. TDK ends with the police suspending civil liberties. The entire point of the movie and keeping the secret of Harvey Dent was to ensure that his bill passes posthumously and that would happen. The moral of TDK is actually *the world would be better without superheroes, but unfortunately Gotham is stuck with them, welp*. Batman in that movie represents law enforcement acting beyond legal authority. There's a repeated theme that while Batman can temporarily deal with an extreme situation, in a real sense he's actually making the long term situation worse, e.g. creating ubercriminals like the Joker and inspiring other, shittier vigilantes like that other batman guy. DKR starts with civil liberties being suspended as the status quo. After the events of TDK I guess Batman is technically around but given the point of the bill was to enable the normal police to deal with crime I guess it makes sense he would be needed less, especially with him being hated by everyone. Supervillains did show up less, I guess, until about three of them showed up at the same time. DKR ends with the Dent Act being revoked, and Wayne passing the torch to the other guy, who maybe would be a less tortured Batman. The moral of the film is something like "maybe Bruce Wayne shouldn't be Batman". Fangz fucked around with this message at 11:29 on Sep 29, 2020 |
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Sep 29, 2020 11:23
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I can't even enjoy DKR for what it is. I honestly can't think of a single thing I like about it. Like even just trying to go through its possible merits one by one: Is it a good action movie? gently caress no, most of the fight scenes are actively embarrassing, either in editing or choreography. Is it a good Batman movie? Batman is barely in it. His only story function is to fly away with a nuke at the end. Is it a good looking movie? No, it's Nolan at his flattest and dullest. Is that acting good? Not really. Hathaway and Hardy are completely miscast. JGL looks like he's confused why he's in the movie half the time. Everyone from the old films is doing their best, but... Is it well written? All the memorable bits of writing are only memorable because they've been turned into memes that are either about how hilarious Hardy's bane voice is or how unnatural and awkward the movie's dialogue is. How about the story? Bane takes over Gotham by trapping every police officer in the city in the sewer for months. What's it trying to say thematically? People who want social change are just dupes being used by terrorists and instantly let their city fall into anarchy until ~the police~ show up to save the day! Sprinkle in enough references to A Tale Of Two Cities that make it clear the writers missed the point of A Tales Of Two Cities. It's a wretched, awful movie and I hate it.
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Sep 29, 2020 11:35
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Fangz posted:? Let me elaborate on my post a bit. First, I do accept I’m dropping into both The Dark Knight and The Dark Knight Rises* But like there was a natural evolution that happened in Gotham between Batman Begins and the Dark Knight. They feel like sequential movies that continue with similar themes. Like Gotham at the end of Batman Begins has clearly been changed, both for the worse (The narrows being a broken down breeding ground for mental illness) and the better (Gordon’s rise in the GCPD with a mandate to clean it up. The city benefiting from financial investment from a returned Bruce Wayne.) There’s also the major theme of crime evolving into super crime. The Joker is teased at the end of Batman Begins as being this response to what Batman has done. And that’s the theme they play with in the Dark Knight. The Joker is this whirlwind of chaos that the mob in their desperation think they can use to bring things back to the old way of doing things. They think that if the Joker kills Batman it will all go back to how it was. But the Joker understands that’s not going to happen. He’s not killing Batman and even if he did, he won’t just fade away and let the mob run things. The Joker sees himself as the Vanguard for a Gotham that is under constant assault from a new breed of criminal who turn the city into a neon carnival of super crime only held back by a single stoic Sentinel. Even putting him into jail or Arkahm is pointless. The bell has been rung and it’s all going to happen. Meanwhile due to the Joker’s action, to save the image of Law Enforcement, Batman and Gordon have to concoct a fiction. A narrative that Harvey Dent was tragically killed, rather than betrayed and went mad. Gordon and the GCPD will have to publicly denounce the Batman and vow to hunt him down. And even if Gordon knows it’s all bullshit, he has to publicly commit to it. While Batman stoically accepts that by letting himself be publicly hunted and shamed he preserves his friends legacy. And even if it will make his job of saving the city harder, that’s okay. “He can take it.” These aren’t some major reaches. They are the clear text by the films end. Then how does the Dark Knight Rises, the third film follow all this up? By basically ignoring it all. Are there super criminals coming to Gotham? Do Mr. Freeze or Clayface or the Riddler show up to challenge Worlds Greatest Detective? gently caress if we know. But it’s made to sound like Jim Gordon and the “No Bail Act” was all it took to make sure Gotham was safe. Either there was never a new generation of super criminals or all it took to defeat them was ignoring their civil liberties**. As for Batman being hunted relentlessly by the GCPD and it’s okay, he can take it? I guess he can’t actually take it. His knee was blown out. He retired. Guess Gotham was okay with their not being a Batman and didn’t really bother to continue the investigation. The bizarre part was, Nolan was behind the wheel on all these films. It’s not like Rian Johnson made one of these movies and screwed up the master narrative so they had to change themes. It all just seemed like they ignored the previous two films to tell a terrible story about how Civil Rights Protesters are the real badguys. * = Minor quibble. The Dark Knight is a great name for a film. The Dark Knight Rises would be a decent name for a movie, just not as a sequel. It really felt like the movie execs told Nolan he had to use the name “The Dark Knight” because his previous movie made such huge money. Like even The Dark Knight 2 would have been better than adding the word Rises to a film....which is the last in a trilogy. **= In fairness, ignoring peoples Civil Liberties is normally presented as one of Batman’s powers.
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Sep 29, 2020 13:03
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Blockhouse posted:I can't even enjoy DKR for what it is. I honestly can't think of a single thing I like about it. Like even just trying to go through its possible merits one by one: This is also a good set of points. Like case in point. Bane is established as this uber threat to Batman. He’s fitter, healthier and as well trained as Batman. He beats Batman because he is able to neutralise all of Batman’s tricks, uses the same League of Shadow’s training and then wreck Batman. So how can Batman defeat him in the rematch? Does Bane become complacent and weak from his months of running rough shed over Gotham while Batman get’s his edge back escaping from the prison? Does Batman re-focus on his League of Shadow’s training which Bane has started to forget and use that to win? Maybe do a nice call back to Batman Begins/The comic version of the Dark Knight Returns by having Batman fight Bane in mud to neutralise his massive strength and make Bane trade away his balance for the goal of a killing stroke against Batman? Do you have Batman focus his attacks on Bane’s mask, a possible weakness that was foreshadowed at the start of the film? That by damaging it, Batman takes away Bane’s pain relief to give him the edge? Hell do you just go the lazy route and say that Batman’s super wall breaking leg brace let’s him beat Bane? Any of those ideas at least have degrees of narrative payoff. Instead Batman just beats Bane because, it’s the end of the movie and he has to win now so we can setup this whole bomb sequence. It won’t be until Terminator: Dark Fate that I have to see as disappointing a final fight.
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Sep 29, 2020 13:12
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The Question IRL posted:Do you have Batman focus his attacks on Bane’s mask, a possible weakness that was foreshadowed at the start of the film? That by damaging it, Batman takes away Bane’s pain relief to give him the edge? That is LITERALLY the turning point in their rematch. He fucks up the mask, Bane freaks out, and goes berserk trying to end it quickly because he's already fading and Batman just wears him out and overcomes him.  By all means, criticise it for its actual flaws but don't make poo poo up.
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Sep 29, 2020 13:36
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SonicRulez posted:I'm sorry, Hawkman is a fascist? Is it because his power is wearing a winged harness?
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Sep 29, 2020 13:40
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Plus, in the first fight Batman tries to beat Bane with pure ferocity "You fight like a young man..." partially because he doesn't give a poo poo if he dies and even kind of wants to, but in the second he is more measured, defensive and strategic, as he has a higher purpose this time.
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Sep 29, 2020 13:47
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twistedmentat posted:I admit, I haven't read every Hawkman comic there is, but every time Carter shows up he goes to Hawkgirl and says "drop everything, you're coming with me, we're meant to be together" and she just kinda goes "I guess that's right? Time to drop my entire life because some random dude showed up and said we were meant to be together" and it always comes off super creepy and it utterly removes Hawkgirl's agency. In post-Crisis, Hawkgirl Shiera Hall's soul was reborn into Kendra Saunders, but without Shiera's memories. Carter Hall, on the other hand, was later reborn with all his memories. At first he was definitely very pushy and had trouble treating Kendra like Kendra instead of Shiera, which she hated, so she told him to back off. Which...he did. And when they eventually partnered up again, as friends and colleagues, it was under both their terms and after a lot of honest emotional growth. There's a lot about the relationship to dislike and it went through its share of unhealthy issues, but the Hawkman of those stories is like the opposite of some stubborn rear end in a top hat who keeps pressuring and wouldn't take no for an answer. In the New 52 and Rebirth, Hawkman and Hawkgirl have barely interacted. The recent Arrowverse version of the Hawks, who starred in the very worst season of Legends of Tomorrow, shares a lot of the comics' plotline but unfortunately without a lot of the nuance, so it does come across more one-sided; there's little discussion about how strange these new memories might be for Kendra, or establishing any boundaries that she might need. But even then, she and Carter were more like colleagues and he certainly never coerced her into a physical relationship. By the season's end, when they do end up together, she ended up being the instigator. All of which is a lot of words to say Hawkman never tried to force Hawkgirl to be with him and even calling the relationship rapey is pure projection.
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Sep 29, 2020 14:03
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Alhazred posted:How the hell is the Question "the ultra-fascist"? The Vic Sage Question, not Renee. Ollie and him teamed up a bunch in the 80s and from my memory of the events, they spent half of the time wanting to punch each other and screaming about politics. Keep in mind that Rorschach was based on Question. And Mr. A, who is a whole other conversation. But yeah. My rankings were on how likely Ollie is to yell at them.
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Sep 29, 2020 14:12
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I don't really know if "but this isn't what the Joker said should happen" is a solid argument.
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Sep 29, 2020 14:13
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The first supervillain to come to Gotham after the Dent Act is put in place conquers it almost effortlessly and shoves all the cops into a dungeon. The movie ends with the Batman mantle passed from the guy working out his trauma through vigilantism to a younger man whose immediate reaction on finding out the truth about the Dent Act was disgust
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Sep 29, 2020 14:17
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Endless Mike posted:It's because he's a cop Also Hawkman is old.
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Sep 29, 2020 14:19
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Alhazred posted:How the hell is the Question "the ultra-fascist"? I remember a story a long time about how a comic writer, who was writing The Question, had The Question say to a villain, something along the lines of "There's no escape for you, my friend." And how that writer received something like a ten page letter from Steve Ditko explaining why The Question would never say "my friend" to a villain.
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Sep 29, 2020 14:36
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to be fair it's up in the air whether the Question would say "my friend" period
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Sep 29, 2020 14:43
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From what I've read about it, Nolan did have other plans in mind for a follow up to The Dark Knight that involved Dent returning as a supervillan and the Joker in a Hannibal Lecter esqe role that fell through because of Heath Ledger's death and not being able to sign Aaron Eckhart back on for another movie. EDIT: I'm also guessing with the success of Inception he was ready to movie on from Superhero movies and onto his own projects too. David D. Davidson fucked around with this message at 14:55 on Sep 29, 2020 |
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Sep 29, 2020 14:47
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Didn’t it get leaked before the movie came out that the one mystery woman lead was Talia Al Ghul as well?
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Sep 29, 2020 15:02
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FlamingLiberal posted:Didn’t it get leaked before the movie came out that the one mystery woman lead was Talia Al Ghul as well? It was also very, very obvious just from the movies if you knew anything about the comics.
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Sep 29, 2020 15:51
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FlamingLiberal posted:Didn’t it get leaked before the movie came out that the one mystery woman lead was Talia Al Ghul as well? The actress who played the young version of Talia confirmed it but it was widely rumoured and believed before that.
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Sep 29, 2020 15:55
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I saw a set picture of Cotillard in Arab-inspired clothes casually being escorted by a terrorist to a tank in one of these threads and it became pretty obvious. It's probably the only time I really spoiled a movie for myself.
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Sep 29, 2020 16:35
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