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Roundboy posted:
She gradually recovered from being so super pissed about Nemesis grabbing what's her name that her voice isn't crushing everyone anymore. She was fine in Cold Days, I think from beginning to end (she whispered the kill command in her own voice to him, I know), I can't remember if it was much before that.
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Oct 4, 2020 01:00
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Drone Jett posted:She gradually recovered from being so super pissed about Nemesis grabbing what's her name that her voice isn't crushing everyone anymore. She was fine in Cold Days, I think from beginning to end (she whispered the kill command in her own voice to him, I know), I can't remember if it was much before that. I think she was talking at the end of Ghost Story when Harry woke up. I think she only had a couple lines though. It's been a couple months since I reread that one so I'm not certain.
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Oct 4, 2020 01:27
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Roundboy posted:I powered through battle ground because it was action page after page, not that it was the high crust of literature. I did find some things were written well and others were overused tropes , or butcher. Txt I don't recall anything specific. What I mostly recall is that in Small Favor she was so utterly pissed about what the Black Council did she couldn't speak for fear of destroying people - including Harry. But she was able to talk to him in Changes and the following books. I just assumed that she'd calmed down some - especially since Harry had thwarted the Denarians' plans for Marcone and the Archive.
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Oct 4, 2020 01:41
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Roundboy posted:Did I miss when Mab stopped needing to speak through a 3rd party,? I get harry is fine, but everyone else?
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Oct 4, 2020 04:03
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LLSix posted:Way back in Cold days Mab said she was speaking through a 3rd party because she was mad Lea and Maeve had been infected by outsiders. Maeve's dead and Lea is cured so she's... not mad anymore, I guess? I guess reading books okay back to back give some conrinuityy errors. Does she melt brains with her voice alone or not?
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Oct 4, 2020 04:07
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Roundboy posted:I guess reading books back to back give some conrinuityy errors. Does she melt brains with her voice alone or not?
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Oct 4, 2020 04:08
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Roundboy posted:I guess reading books okay back to back give some conrinuityy errors. Does she melt brains with her voice alone or not? Only when she's really pissed about something
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Oct 4, 2020 04:25
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Well I guess it's good for everybody involved that she was able to keep her cool this time around
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Oct 4, 2020 04:57
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biracial bear for uncut posted:The series would be loads better if the White Court had been exterminated the same time the Red Court was removed. Maybe, but one thing I'm getting from Dresden Files is that the ultimate conflict isn't exactly Good vs. Evil. It's Existence vs. Annihilation. In that struggle Good and Evil are standing in the same fire. Looked at from that perspective, the destruction of the Red Court was kind of a bad thing. Granted that it's not like there was a real choice for Harry at that point.
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Oct 4, 2020 07:45
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I was right about the one of these and incredibly wrong about the other. Regarding the castle: I would like Dresden to open up Parapet Pizza on the first floor. Maybe also move the paranoid paranet hacker guy in on a permanent basis Regarding the short story: Man that mug hit me harder than anything else in these two books. Right there in the feelings. Regarding Ramirez and his suddenly going cold on Harry. Short story spoilers: Ramirez and Molly have a short story together where they collaborate and solve a mystery together. Winter is really pushing all Molly's "wanton slut" buttons just like it did for Maeve. However the Winter Lady mantle requires that the Winter Lady remain a maiden, so when she tries to hook up with Ramirez at the end of the story, the mantle responds by taking control and beating the ever loving poo poo out of him. Which is presumably why he was in a wheelchair. He's probably feeling pretty anti-Winter overall.
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Oct 4, 2020 08:57
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Beachcomber posted:I was right about the one of these and incredibly wrong about the other. He probably will bring in the hacker guy. It's clear to me that the castle will function as "Harry HQ" as he's building his power-base. I also suspect that Marcone realizes that and probably approves of it. He knows he can deal with Harry. As in literally makes deals with him. He might sometimes work with the White Coucil, but Marcone knows damned well that they think of him as an up-jumped mortal. And that if they found out he had the Coin they come after him without hesitation or mercy. Harry won't unless Marcone gives him a good enough reason, which he hasn't so far. Note that Marcone has already yielded the Eye to "the Wizard of Chicago" and specifically not to the White Council. The Denarian Coin might give him a personal power boost but Marcone's greatest asset has always been his bent for long-term strategy. Beachcomber posted:Regarding the short story: Man that mug hit me harder than anything else in these two books. Right there in the feelings. The story works much, much better as a kind of "second epilogue" than as a story that came out well before the two books even though it was set after them. I now regret reading it when I did. Beachcomber posted:Regarding Ramirez and his suddenly going cold on Harry. Short story spoilers: Ramirez and Molly have a short story together where they collaborate and solve a mystery together. Winter is really pushing all Molly's "wanton slut" buttons just like it did for Maeve. Honestly, that bit kind of annoyed me. I mean, could Molly not just apologize, offer restitution and best of all just loving explain what happened. Just a basic, "I'm sorry, Carlos. This thing I have didn't come with an owner's manual. I care about you and never wanted to hurt you. Please forgive me." At this point I don't know that Molly (or even Harry) did that. I get keeping secrets when necessary, but keeping that a secret just passes the boundaries of basic decency. Or they did explain/apologize and Ramirez is just being a bitter rear end in a top hat about it. It's probably the former because The Drama of Stupid.
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Oct 4, 2020 18:11
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Everyone posted:
Even an apology and explanation wouldn't really help. He thought he was hooking up with Molly, but then it turns out Winter can just take over and do whatever it wants if it decides to due to some arcane rules neither he, nor she can really explain. It probably contributed to why he didn't trust Harry. He has personal experience with a Mantle just straight up taking over and doing something regardless of the holders wishes. Doesn't exactly scream trustworthy, so his distaste for Winter isn't unjustified. And even if she did apologize and offer restitution, it's going to come across as the Mantle forcing her to follow the Accords as Mab would want her to.
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Oct 4, 2020 18:23
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Everyone posted:Honestly, that bit kind of annoyed me. I mean, Considering how much of the series as a whole has been driven by this element, I'm willing to blame it for a lot. But then, I think I'm coming to the decision to drop the series anyway.
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Oct 4, 2020 18:32
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If I'm remembering this right, Listens-to-Wind told Harry he would ask the White Council if he could tell him about the starborn stuff and come back to him in a year right? There's been lots of hints that the White Council knows Harry is special and will need him at some point, so it definitely feels to me like booting him out is a way to keep him out of some schemes. They might also (incorrectly) think that they can get him to lay low until he's needed by threatening him. Also, I doubt the one year thing is a coincidence. I'm assuming that Harry will learn about what's been going on either right before or after the wedding and it's going to complicate things in a major way. And did Butcher really just make up Conjuritis so he could do a callback to the "For my next trick, anvils" thing? I thought it was pretty funny but I'm not sure punchline was worth the setup.
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Oct 4, 2020 18:34
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Lemniscate Blue posted:Considering how much of the series as a whole has been driven by this element, I'm willing to blame it for a lot. But then, I think I'm coming to the decision to drop the series anyway. Changes was a more prophetic name than I think Butcher meant it to be. I feel like the series has been on a downward slope since then. It has less of the goofy snark and sense of humor that made the series fun and more of the my-competence-and-personality-fluctuates-as-the-plot demands stuff that makes even the previously cool action scenes less exciting. Lasciel's influence was subtle, intense and gripping. Winter Mantle influence just feels like a plot contrivance to make people act extra dumb. Speaking of the Winter Mantle, how come Ghost Harry didn't have it? LLSix fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Oct 4, 2020 |
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Oct 4, 2020 19:51
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CHaKKaWaKka posted:
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. The “anvil” was cool, but not cool enough to make up for the horrible lameness that is conjuritis. I would have rather had Harry working on some kind of mysterious magic item for several books to the point of people calling him out for being a little obsessed with it and him refusing to explain and then “ANVILS!!” and mad cackling laughter [/fanfic]. That could have been a cool setup/punchline.
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Oct 4, 2020 21:17
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navyjack posted:Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. The “anvil” was cool, but not cool enough to make up for the horrible lameness that is conjuritis. I would have rather had Harry working on some kind of mysterious magic item for several books to the point of people calling him out for being a little obsessed with it and him refusing to explain and then “ANVILS!!” and mad cackling laughter [/fanfic]. That could have been a cool setup/punchline. That would have been funny.
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Oct 4, 2020 21:54
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Finished up Battlegrounds yesterday and really enjoyed it. Recommend reading it in chunks though so you don’t get burned out on the action. I think Verus is probably better now that I’ve read that between Skin Game and now but I want to see where this ends up. I still don’t understand why half this thread only hate reads Dresden. Edit: not to say I don’t see flaws in Butcher’s writing, just why people keep coming back to it only to bitch in this thread
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Oct 4, 2020 22:11
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I read it as enjoyable camp, and that’s why I can understand why half the thread hate reads it. Maybe they’re enjoying the camp but have to justify it to themselves.
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Oct 4, 2020 22:24
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It's not the camp but rather how so much of it has stayed the same for the past decade. Imagine if Adam West's Batman was still going today. Readers are bored of the exact same formula and tropes. Descriptions that were neat or amusing the first time wear thin the fifteenth. That said, I mostly enjoyed the book, but it stretched my limit of "this person is really super duper powerful," a little past its breaking. The descriptions broke down into a combination of pro-wrestling and that one scene from Dragonball Z where its just a blank scene and we're told that they're moving too fast for us to comprehend. That's very difficult for an author to put into words and I don't think Butcher quite sells it.
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Oct 4, 2020 22:45
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smertrioslol posted:Finished up Battlegrounds yesterday and really enjoyed it. Recommend reading it in chunks though so you don’t get burned out on the action. I clocked out on Dresden so I can't really speak about the new books, but it does have a lot of problems in the older books. There's also the "it's the popular one and people are upset it is popular over the niche ones that are better written" thing a little bit. It's basically like the Marvel Movies in that it is basically light fluffy pulp and it's frustrating that makes a lot more money than hard effort and we've seen more than one promising series die due to poor sales which Butcher can go multiple years without writing a book and his mediocre works still get more attention.
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Oct 4, 2020 22:54
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Lemniscate Blue posted:Considering how much of the series as a whole has been driven by this element, I'm willing to blame it for a lot. But then, I think I'm coming to the decision to drop the series anyway. I'm still in through at least the next book. Hell, after 17 of these things plus assorted short stories over the past 20 years, I figure I'm in for the duration. That's one reason I'm annoyed. The stuff Butcher does well, he actual does pretty damned well. Dresden kind of nails the concept of "Spider-Man as a wizard." He's generally an engaging, sympathetic protagonist. And there was some cool stuff here, too. Mab not necessarily being the "epitome of wicked witchiness" so much as a person who's had to make a whole lot of nasty choices over the years. Harry leading human citizens and the Winter Court monsters. The Winter Court monsters being "the good guys" while still being walking nightmares. The good stuff is pretty decent, so the dumb stuff becomes that much more annoying.
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Oct 5, 2020 02:28
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I actually thought Harry was going to kill Rudolph in his rage and that was going to lead to his expulsion specifically, only because they can't exactly execute him without pissing off Mab.
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Oct 5, 2020 02:56
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biracial bear for uncut posted:The series would be loads better if the White Court had been exterminated the same time the Red Court was removed. It is pretty comical how the White Court has been reduced to Lara, Thomas, Lord Raith (when the story occasionally remembers that plotline), and an indeterminate number of other nameless White Court vampires who stand to the side during some scenes and look pretty.
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Oct 5, 2020 03:09
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The next book or two will probably be White Court focused, given the whole nonconsensual marriage between Harry and Lara bit.
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Oct 5, 2020 03:22
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Gnoman posted:The next book or two will probably be White Court focused, given the whole nonconsensual marriage between Harry and Lara bit. I'll be okay with that. I'm really hoping that Harry is able to talk things out with McCoy. I really hope that McCoy learns that his daughter's death curse on Lord Raith is being kept going by her two children - Thomas and Harry.
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Oct 5, 2020 03:34
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I enjoyed Peace Talks and Battle Ground as one book, but I'm convinced it could have been edited down to actually be one book, entitled Peace Talks, that would be tightly plotted and well executed. Take out a bunch of the Thomas garbage in book one, at least half. He can be in peril without going on and on and on about "he's my brother!" I am confused about how they're acting like Thomas can't recover. Don't they just need to feed him and he'll bounce back? They don't even necessarily need to kill anyone if a bunch of the nameless Raith girls did what Lara did on the boat.
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Oct 5, 2020 04:30
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McCoy was right.
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Oct 5, 2020 07:36
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Everyone posted:He probably will bring in the hacker guy. It's clear to me that the castle will function as "Harry HQ" as he's building his power-base. I also suspect that Marcone realizes that and probably approves of it. He knows he can deal with Harry. As in literally makes deals with him. He might sometimes work with the White Coucil, but Marcone knows damned well that they think of him as an up-jumped mortal. And that if they found out he had the Coin they come after him without hesitation or mercy. Harry won't unless Marcone gives him a good enough reason, which he hasn't so far. Note that Marcone has already yielded the Eye to "the Wizard of Chicago" and specifically not to the White Council. The Denarian Coin might give him a personal power boost but Marcone's greatest asset has always been his bent for long-term strategy. Also he's no longer mortal as long as he has the coin. How will he explain that when he's no older in 50 years, 100 years, 1000 years. And the fallen do have an agenda, what do they want in exchange for giving Marcone the coin? Seems to me likely it will bring Harry into conflict with Marcone, or Marcone into conflict with his own fallen since they do some evil poo poo sometimes that I don't think Marcone would accept. I wonder if he sees the coin as a temporary thing until he manages some other way to grab supernatural powers. His long term goals are definitely to increase his personal power. Also felt like they retro-upgraded Thorned Namshiel to deal with the power creep. I remember him as some wannabe sorcerer loser who Harry beat with a stick until he got paralyzed, now he's an uber wizard who can tangle with Ethniu longer than Odin or the others managed. Too much power creep in this series overall, I hope it's dialed back a bit, let Harry progress in his wizarding a bit I think. The enemies he's got are already powerful as gently caress.
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Oct 5, 2020 09:11
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bobjr posted:I actually thought Harry was going to kill Rudolph in his rage and that was going to lead to his expulsion specifically, only because they can't exactly execute him without pissing off Mab. Gotta say that was one of the better moments in the last two books, which overall don't rate that highly for me. Finally felt like something was at stake.
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Oct 5, 2020 09:13
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His Divine Shadow posted:
You're mixing up Denarians. The "wannabe sorcerer" Harry beat with a stick was the one impersonating Father Vincent in Death Masks, which was possible because he gave up his coin to exploit the limitations of the Swords. Thorned Namshiel was the rather powerful sorcerer who set up the trap at Shedd Aquarium for the Archive, and was defeated only because Harry manifested Soulfire without even knowing what it was yet.
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Oct 5, 2020 09:26
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Did no one notice that He who walks besides used the exact same wording as Nicodemus did in the very first book we are introduced to the Denarians. "Apocalypse isn't an event, it's a frame of mind" I'm taking from this, that of the Denarians, Nicodemus is the one infected - he was telling the truth to Harry at the aquarium, he might not even know that he himself is infected, it would explain why he was willing to sacrifice his daughter to Hades gentle ministrations given that she was the one member of the denarians he actually seemed to like most.
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Oct 5, 2020 11:29
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Gnoman posted:You're mixing up Denarians. The "wannabe sorcerer" Harry beat with a stick was the one impersonating Father Vincent in Death Masks, which was possible because he gave up his coin to exploit the limitations of the Swords. Thorned Namshiel was the rather powerful sorcerer who set up the trap at Shedd Aquarium for the Archive, and was defeated only because Harry manifested Soulfire without even knowing what it was yet. Oh yeah I got it somewhat mixed up. I was thinking of the aquarium scene but I remembered it as Harry getting the drop on him and beating up, but it was with a silvery soulfire hand and not his staff.
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Oct 5, 2020 11:33
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tithin posted:Did no one notice that He who walks besides used the exact same wording as Nicodemus did in the very first book we are introduced to the Denarians. I'm wondering, is nemesis a person, a walker (or maybe several walkers, we know of three at least iirc) that posess people, or an infection that can spread like a disease?
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Oct 5, 2020 11:34
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His Divine Shadow posted:
Didn't it spell it out at the end of Battle Ground? It's He Who Walks Beside.
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Oct 5, 2020 12:16
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Darth Walrus posted:Didn't it spell it out at the end of Battle Ground? It's He Who Walks Beside. I didn't feel that ruled out the other possibilities of other walkers also doing it at the least. I had gotten the impression of it spreading sort of as a diease from earlier books and have a hard time quitting that mindset, so it's gotta be typed really clear for me, made it seem a lot more dangerous than just one guy possessing someone, in that case it's limited to just one person at a time.
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Oct 5, 2020 13:02
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His Divine Shadow posted:
Wow, medicine is really advanced nowadays? Figure wizards/vampires/etc have been dealing with this forever. Some version of fake death and his nephew/hidden grandson/etc inherits? And I don't think the Fallen "gave" Marcone the Coin. I think he took it from the island during the chaos at the end of Small Favor. Marcone clearly doesn't consider himself to be part of the Fallen and their agenda in any case. His Divine Shadow posted:
All of that seems likely. Really Marcone isn't so much about increasing personal power as he is about temporal power (being in charge). Having the personal power to teleport and make lovely boats out of concrete is just another tool to that end. I did like the mild argument he got into with Namshiel over gopher wood. "No I dont have any gopher wood. Nobody has any. It probably doesn't even exist any more." And now the burnig question of the series is WTF is gopher wood? His Divine Shadow posted:Also felt like they retro-upgraded Thorned Namshiel to deal with the power creep. I remember him as some wannabe sorcerer loser who Harry beat with a stick until he got paralyzed, now he's an uber wizard who can tangle with Ethniu longer than Odin or the others managed. I am hoping we'll see a different aspect of "power creep" on the more relational/political level. We know that Harry and his enemies are gently caress-off powerful. It might be fun to see Harry deal with people in ways other than Forzare/Fuego/Soulfire bitch-slap. Though we'll presumably get plenty of that as well.
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Oct 5, 2020 15:17
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Everyone posted:Wow, medicine is really advanced nowadays? Figure wizards/vampires/etc have been dealing with this forever. Some version of fake death and his nephew/hidden grandson/etc inherits? And I don't think the Fallen "gave" Marcone the Coin. I think he took it from the island during the chaos at the end of Small Favor. Marcone clearly doesn't consider himself to be part of the Fallen and their agenda in any case. Gopher Wood is referenced in the bible as the kind of wood Noah's Ark was made out of. Its unclear exactly what wood it was supposed to be referring to but a lot of folklore paints it as an ancient super wood of some kind
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Oct 5, 2020 15:30
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I don't think much at all has been established about what the capabilities and limits of Outsiders even are, so it's perfectly possible that Nemesis could control more than one being simultaneously, and it may also have more than one way of influencing beings other than direct possession. I think all we know for sure is that it takes mortal magic to summon them from beyond the Outer Gates, and that ... ... starspawn
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Oct 5, 2020 15:32
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His Divine Shadow posted:I didn't feel that ruled out the other possibilities of other walkers also doing it at the least. I had gotten the impression of it spreading sort of as a diease from earlier books and have a hard time quitting that mindset, so it's gotta be typed really clear for me, made it seem a lot more dangerous than just one guy possessing someone, in that case it's limited to just one person at a time. Lea and Maeve were both infected at the same time so it can't just be one person at a time.
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Oct 5, 2020 15:37
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