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eke out posted:so the Fused think the Sibling is a (edit: "essentially a") deadeye -- interesting. it's certainly not what the Stormfather and others seem to think, I wonder which group is wrong here Eagerly awaiting the Moash, Leshwi, Lezian harem based on love/hating Kaladin
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Oct 6, 2020 16:17
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eke out posted:so the Fused think the Sibling is a (edit: "essentially a") deadeye -- interesting. it's certainly not what the Stormfather and others seem to think, I wonder which group is wrong here Yeah, the "essentially" is the key here. It clearly states that the Sibling is not a deadeye, but something similar. And it can't be a deadeye, since it began to withdraw before the Recreance, with the Radiants leaving Urithiru quite some time before betraying their oaths. I'm not sure whether the assault will actually fail or not. Being forced to flee Urithiru could set the stage for book 5, where they have to retake it, suffer a lot of casualties, and then it goes to the time skip? Something like that. Still, this is intriguing stuff, finally. This is much better than the first few chapters.
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Oct 6, 2020 20:01
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quote:Being forced to flee Urithiru could set the stage for book 5, where they have to retake it, suffer a lot of casualties, and then it goes to the time skip? Something like that. I could be misremembering but I seem to recall that Sanderson was surprisingly clear about how the first 5 books are their own story -- this is the "knights radiant reform and fight odium" storyline, and regardless of how it ends specifically, we're in for something new for the back half (i assume a more cosmere-wide storyline with at least one new big villain, probably Autonomy given where the mistborn books have gone recently and how the wax/wayne books timeline will line up nicely for those people to appear in the post-timeskip stormlight books)
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Oct 6, 2020 20:17
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eke out posted:I could be misremembering but I seem to recall that Sanderson was surprisingly clear about how the first 5 books are their own story -- this is the "knights radiant reform and fight odium" storyline, and regardless of how it ends specifically, we're in for something new for the back half Venli's talk about freedom and forming her own society kind of fits in with Autonomy as well. I don't think there's enough there to say for sure but I wouldn't be suprised to find out that Autonomy is somehow involved. Maybe one of Autonomy's avatars stopped by to talk to her variety of spren and convinced them to work with the listeners rather than the humans.
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Oct 6, 2020 20:19
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Torrannor posted:I'm not sure whether the assault will actually fail or not. Being forced to flee Urithiru could set the stage for book 5, where they have to retake it, suffer a lot of casualties, and then it goes to the time skip? Something like that. That sounds like kind of a re-tread of Wheel Of Time attacking the White Tower. I mean, it's different obviously, but...
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Oct 6, 2020 20:23
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seaborgium posted:Venli's talk about freedom and forming her own society kind of fits in with Autonomy as well. I don't think there's enough there to say for sure but I wouldn't be suprised to find out that Autonomy is somehow involved. Maybe one of Autonomy's avatars stopped by to talk to her variety of spren and convinced them to work with the listeners rather than the humans. or will be involved, yeah, if they aren't yet -- a new people opposed to all the Shards currently on the world, breaking off onto their own seems like it would absolutely be their poo poo. i hadn't thought about this but it's a pretty good theory also A could probably take advantage of recruiting existing Knights Radiant (at least Listener Willshapers) since I bet they could get along with Autonomy's intent very nicely without having to break their oaths
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Oct 6, 2020 20:37
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A new update on Dawnshard got sent out to Kickstarter backers today: "The beta read is finishing up, and Brandon is revising the story." Mockups of the challenge coins were also posted and I really, really, really want the Lightweaver one:   I wish I could buy these standalone and I can't; the add-on that was up on Backerkit after the Kickstarter closed allowed you to add swag for an Order but it came with the stickers and patches and other stuff that I don't want. I just want the coin!!!
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Oct 7, 2020 11:36
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Is it fair to say the story from RoW is leaning heavily into the Cosmere stuff? I picked up the series after WoT and enjoyed it, but I’m very uninterested in following through however many other novels he’s written to learn about the other systems of magic or whatever. If the story is going all in on the Cosmere I’ll drop out before starting another 50+ hour audiobook.
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Oct 7, 2020 17:09
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Stormlight is the series that really "brings the Cosmere together", sooo... While I'm sure you can get away with ~only~ reading all 10 books [once they're written] you'd probably also want to read other Cosmere works too, yes. If you willingly got through all 14 WoT books I'm having trouble understanding why that's a problem, though 
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Oct 7, 2020 17:11
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Sanderson has stated that you don't need to read any other series to understand what is happening. It's self contained, but other series will bleed in. Example. zahel was created to be in Stormlight. Warbreaker was written as a prequel to explain his history. Completely unneeded. The back 5 of the series is apparently going to involve more cosmere stuff, but again, it's mostly Easter egg stuff. It can all be understood by reading just stormlight. Edit: I would recommend Mistborn The Final Empire to you though. That book is fantastic.
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Oct 7, 2020 17:17
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Prairie Bus posted:Is it fair to say the story from RoW is leaning heavily into the Cosmere stuff? I picked up the series after WoT and enjoyed it, but I’m very uninterested in following through however many other novels he’s written to learn about the other systems of magic or whatever. If the story is going all in on the Cosmere I’ll drop out before starting another 50+ hour audiobook. It's not that many others, actually. There's some substantial Warbreaker crossover, but that is one of Brandon's shorter books, and actually free to read on his website. There's some interesting stuff connecting it to the Mistborn setting, but it mostly affects minor things. Like right now, they are making advances in the science of magical devices, and are discussing the different properties of metals, which makes some obvious sense if you've read MIstborn, since metals play such a huge role in that series' magic system. But basically, having read Warbreaker and the Mistborn series is all you need, and in fact Mistborn and Stormlight are his only long running series set in the Cosmere.
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Oct 7, 2020 17:17
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Should probably just post Brandon's exact words on this issue since he just posted about it on reddit a week ago as I think he explains it well.Brandon Sanderson on Reddit posted:Late night annotation time! Later he adds the following when someone asked if he has beta readers who specifically only reads Stormlight: Brandon Sanderson on Reddit posted:Yes, I do. I also rely on a few more casual readers in my writing group, who don't keep up to date on everything happening in the books (and don't reread before we get back to a world) to help me judge what will be confusing to the fans who don't keep track as meticulously. I want the books to work on both levels, if possible. Honestly there has been nothing bigger than 'easter egg' level cross-over up till this point. You don't need to read the other books but most people read Stormlight 1+2 and go HOLY poo poo I want more of this. If you feel that way its definitely recommended branching into Warbreaker first and Mistborn second if you want insider fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Oct 7, 2020 |
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Oct 7, 2020 23:19
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I read Warbreaker before I got to Stormlight, so I can’t say for certain, but I’d imagine Nightblood feels really out of place for someone who hasn’t read Warbreaker.
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Oct 7, 2020 23:37
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MildShow posted:I read Warbreaker before I got to Stormlight, so I can’t say for certain, but I’d imagine Nightblood feels really out of place for someone who hasn’t read Warbreaker. I would assume it reads like another weird sword-fabrial-instantiated-spren thing of which there are many examples in the story already, but I'm in your boat so I don't really know.
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Oct 8, 2020 00:02
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MildShow posted:I read Warbreaker before I got to Stormlight, so I can’t say for certain, but I’d imagine Nightblood feels really out of place for someone who hasn’t read Warbreaker. It's entirely possible that Stormlight-only readers don't even realize what a big deal Nightblood is. And interestingly, the word Nightblood doesn't appear in the first three books at all, though I think this will change with the 5th book at the latest. But many Cosmere fans speculate that Nightblood will be one key to defeating Odium, and this is imho the only big-ish thing that people might benefit from knowing about beforehand. And there's Wit, but even reading just the Stormlight Archive makes it clear that he's an important player. Speaking of Nightblood (Warbringer and SA spoilers:) the new "lesser Nightblood" Vivienna carries around is pretty interesting, too. If Nalthians can make quite a few more of these, they could be a serious challenge in a hypothetical Roshar-Nalthis fight. I think some people sleep on Nalthis, because Scadrial has the scientific advances, and Roshar the more splashy magic. But the number of shardblades is somewhat limited, there would need to exist more spren to make more blades, and the number of spren apparently only grows very slowly. Meanwhile, you get a lot of Breaths each generation. And those Nightblood clones surely don't take the original's thousand Breaths to make. So the Nalthians could conceivably pump out quite a number of "lesser" shardblades in a reasonable time frame, using a regenerating resource. Of course a NB clone is not as good as a shardblade. Dead blades don't have the biggest advantages I think. They are bigger and lighter, and are convenient to carry around, but that's it. Living blades can shapeshift, which is a bigger advantage. But as I said, sprenblades are limited by the number of spren to become blades, while Nightblood copies only need Breaths (and metal). And it just occured to me that a reason Wyndle never takes sword form in Edgedancer might be that it would have tipped readers off that Mayalaran is an Edgedancer blade, too.
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Oct 8, 2020 00:03
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MildShow posted:I read Warbreaker before I got to Stormlight, so I can’t say for certain, but I’d imagine Nightblood feels really out of place for someone who hasn’t read Warbreaker. I read Stormlight before Warbreaker and yeah, Nightblood was real confusing but I figured it was either a very special shardblade or a direct tie-in to some other Cosmere setting.
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Oct 8, 2020 00:18
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I'm a Stormlight and Mistborn only reader. These were the books always brought up on forums I frequent. I knew this evil sword was something special because of its clear insanity and also the aura and also its unique effects. I didn't know it came from another series, though. I read Sanderson's stuff while I had no internet for a prolonged time so I had no idea of the Cosmere's existence at all until I got back online and started giving my opinions on the books and asking questions. I just figured it be explained later but I guess not.
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Oct 8, 2020 00:25
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Torrannor posted:Speaking of Nightblood (Warbringer and SA spoilers:) the new "lesser Nightblood" Vivienna carries around is pretty interesting, too. If Nalthians can make quite a few more of these, they could be a serious challenge in a hypothetical Roshar-Nalthis fight. I think some people sleep on Nalthis, because Scadrial has the scientific advances, and Roshar the more splashy magic. But the number of shardblades is somewhat limited, there would need to exist more spren to make more blades, and the number of spren apparently only grows very slowly. Meanwhile, you get a lot of Breaths each generation. And those Nightblood clones surely don't take the original's thousand Breaths to make. So the Nalthians could conceivably pump out quite a number of "lesser" shardblades in a reasonable time frame, using a regenerating resource. also these limits could be completely broken if you could reliably turn Stormlight into Breaths in high quantity
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Oct 8, 2020 01:48
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Sanderson did a video about his top 10 favorite video games if anyone is interested in watching that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFZNpT_INmA Actually a pretty decent, varied list.
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Oct 8, 2020 03:04
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Adnor posted:Sanderson did a video about his top 10 favorite video games if anyone is interested in watching that: I knew I was right to like this guy. Final Fantasy X is indeed the perfect FF. New Vegas is also pretty great. And I haven't played any of the others except Super Mario World. Might try Halo now it's on Steam. EDIT: But now I want to know who he sided with in New Vegas. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 04:04 on Oct 8, 2020 |
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Oct 8, 2020 03:48
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Prairie Bus posted:Is it fair to say the story from RoW is leaning heavily into the Cosmere stuff? I picked up the series after WoT and enjoyed it, but I’m very uninterested in following through however many other novels he’s written to learn about the other systems of magic or whatever. If the story is going all in on the Cosmere I’ll drop out before starting another 50+ hour audiobook. MildShow posted:I read Warbreaker before I got to Stormlight, so I can’t say for certain, but I’d imagine Nightblood feels really out of place for someone who hasn’t read Warbreaker. I picked up The Way of Kings and then Words of Radiance simply because I liked the WoT Sanderson novels. I didn't know anything else about him and had never read any of his other books. Roshar, the characters and the story still blew me away without any Cosmere knowledge. Nothing felt weird or missing, I just wanted more of his books. I then read Warbreaker and all of Mistborn, and connecting the dots in that way was awesome as well. Don't let the Cosmere put you off! Jump in!
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Oct 8, 2020 03:56
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It always spooks me a little how normal Sanderson is. Like a lot of times artists are tortured in some way and you get the opposite vibe of that from Sanderson. Like he's the reference model stamped out in the human factory or something.
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Oct 8, 2020 06:33
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I'd read warbreaker first so when i got the end of words of radiance i yelled
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Oct 8, 2020 13:39
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Torrannor posted:Speaking of Nightblood (Warbringer and SA spoilers:) the new "lesser Nightblood" Vivienna carries around is pretty interesting, too. If Nalthians can make quite a few more of these, they could be a serious challenge in a hypothetical Roshar-Nalthis fight. I think some people sleep on Nalthis, because Scadrial has the scientific advances, and Roshar the more splashy magic. But the number of shardblades is somewhat limited, there would need to exist more spren to make more blades, and the number of spren apparently only grows very slowly. Meanwhile, you get a lot of Breaths each generation. And those Nightblood clones surely don't take the original's thousand Breaths to make. So the Nalthians could conceivably pump out quite a number of "lesser" shardblades in a reasonable time frame, using a regenerating resource. The big problem with this is that Breath is essentially human soul-lite. Yeah you don't die without it but making drabs on Nalthis isn't exactly a pleasant proposition. But yes you can easily turn a few hundred thousand people into legendary swords if you industrialize the suffering. I got my mother to read Stormlight and she had no problem and she had no problem quickly knowing that Nightblood and Wit were bigger deals than the given information in the series, and that part of the mystery was pleasant. Part of the joy of the cosmere is slowly putting all the puzzle pieces together as a first time reader. If you just jump on the wiki before you've enjoyed the series you're in for some serious spoilers.
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Oct 8, 2020 16:51
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I hadn't read Warbreaker first and I thought the Nightblood stuff was really jarring and out of place in WoR and Oathbringer. It didn't feel in tune with the worldbuilding in the novels up to that point. It still doesn't, but I'm interested to see how far Sanderson goes with it in Rhythm of War. Haven't read the preview chapters in case it's mentioned already. I've read, and enjoyed, Warbreaker since then so I'm okay with it now but I would understand it rubbing a reader the wrong way if reading Stormlight in a vacuum. For the future I hope Sanderson stays vague and keeps out hard details of the magic systems from his other novels. Kaladin learning there are other worlds and someone shows up in a mistcloak, chugs a vial and flies off, great; don't tell me they drank steel and you need twenty breaths to make a stick-man etc etc.
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Oct 8, 2020 17:25
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I mean, we get all the important info about Nightblood in Oathbringer (destroys basically anything, will consume it's wielder if the wielder doesn't have a ton of Stormlight to feed the blade), and we will surely learn a ton more (hopefully including more of his backstory) in book 5, where Szeth is apparently the central character.
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Oct 8, 2020 20:04
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PlushCow posted:I hadn't read Warbreaker first and I thought the Nightblood stuff was really jarring and out of place in WoR and Oathbringer. It didn't feel in tune with the worldbuilding in the novels up to that point. It still doesn't, but I'm interested to see how far Sanderson goes with it in Rhythm of War. Haven't read the preview chapters in case it's mentioned already. Sanderson writes “hard” magic systems, so you’re gonna know how many breathes for a stickman since it’s sometimes plot relevant.
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Oct 8, 2020 20:16
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Don't be absurd, it doesn't have to be explained if it isn't relevant to the story at hand. The baddies from Elantris do bone magic, but I couldn't tell you how that's done and it doesn't matter.
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Oct 8, 2020 21:45
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Y’all allergic to exactness or something?
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Oct 8, 2020 21:57
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mossyfisk posted:Don't be absurd, it doesn't have to be explained if it isn't relevant to the story at hand. If it's not relevant to the story at hand, it's probably relevant to something coming in three books time.
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Oct 8, 2020 22:22
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Adnor posted:Sanderson did a video about his top 10 favorite video games if anyone is interested in watching that: Woah didn't know he had a youtube now. Some really good videos there.
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Oct 8, 2020 23:30
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His writing lectures are the best.
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Oct 9, 2020 02:19
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I'm still really intrigued by the orders of Fused. We learn in Oathbringer that the Fused can only use one surge each, but that they could better control their surge than their KR counterpart. That was cool enough, but the revelation (both by Dalinar and by Venli's internal monologue) that there are only nine orders of Fused suddenly makes this very interesting. This means that the Fused can't use one of the surges! Which is pretty strange, why would that be so? Of course the number nine is an Odium thing (there are also nine Unmade), but this doesn't explain why he would voluntarily (?) create only nine orders of fused and so miss out on one of the surges. Which also makes me wonder, which surge are they missing? We've seen them use gravitation, illumination, transportation and abrasion. And somebody must have soulcast The Nine into their pillars, and I doubt that they want to rely on humans to do such soulcasting for them, so one order can likely use transformation. Which means we have adhesion, division, progression, cohesion and tension left. We haven't actually really seen division or cohesion in action, and tension was also showcased rarely. But I'm speculating that the missing surge is probably either adhesion or progression. The community generally sees Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers the closest orders to Honor and Cultivation respectively, and so it would kinda make sense that the missing Fused order would use a surge of one of those two KR orders. But we have seen (or heard of) the Fused use one of the surges of those two orders (gravitation and illumination), which would leave progression and adhesion. But there are other reasons to think it might be one of those surges that are missing. For progression, it could be simple practicality. The Fused themselves probably don't need special healing powers beyond what Stormlight/Voidlight provide them. If their body is too badly damaged, they can just kill themselves/will themselves dead to get a new body. And Odium probably doesn't care enough about the average singers to want his Fused being able to heal them. Adhesion seems like a surge especially suited to Bondsmiths, "to bring men together". It also doesn't have that clear of a combat application as some of the other surges. Maybe Odium can't grant his Fused an ability that seems counter to his intent. I'm also still not sure whether the Fused are actually surgebinging, or if they are using voidbinding. The surges they use seem to mostly work like they do for a Knight Radiant. While the only known instance of voidbinding, Renarin's future sight, works markedly differently from Shallan's (and likely other Truthwatcher's) use of Illumination. If they are surgebinding, who's doing the voidbinding then? Only the Unmade? Singers powered by Ba-Ado-Mishram? If the singers do use voidbinding, then the voidbinding chart may give a clue why there are only nine orders of Fused:  The Bondsmith and Truthwatcher counterparts on the voidbinding chart are enveloped by some kind of crystal. People originally interpreted this as these order somehow being imprisoned, which would explain why they have no connection to their respective surges, unlike the other voidbinding orders. But what if instead there is one sort of fused that has access to two surges (presumably progression and adhesion), instead of the usual one surge per type of Fused? Although this wouldn't explain why the crystal seemingly cuts of those void-orders from their surges... Here's the surgebinding chart for comparison:  There are so many mysteries about the fused yet to discover, I'm getting quite a bit more hyped for RoW now that the Venli chapters promise a lot of answers.
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Oct 10, 2020 11:03
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Looking at those charts closely, I think you're right that there is something else to the voidbinding chart with respect to the two central orders, bondsmiths and truthwatchers. But the little circles are the surges, and each of them links to one larger circle (the orders), except in voidbinding no surges link to the two central orders. That implies that perhaps those orders has access to some other power of odiums. Plus, the surges and voidsurges have some similarities, but some big differences. It's possible they actually just work slightly differently. For example the progression voidsurge looks like the normal surge except that half of it is flipped- instead of all the lines going in one direction, they're sliding against each other in opposite directions. Altogether I think that voidbinding chart refers to users, probably humans or singer, who bind a voidspren, rather than the Fused. The Fused may be more like a herald counterpart. That might be why Renarins progression works differently, and hints at sliding into the parallel present rather than progressing in one direction. That may also be why voidbinding sees the future better.
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Oct 11, 2020 10:05
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I also think the Fused are completely different than normal voidbinders. From the recent chapters it seems like the Fused are more like Spren that are able to come into the physical realm. That is why they are so afraid of being captured like Spren.
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Oct 11, 2020 22:20
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I think that the void surges are like the regular ones only because while Odium is bound to Braze he has to play by the rules that Honor and Cultivation set up originally. Odium is unable to express his investiture in its original form. Odium has to round off the corners of his square pegs to fit Honors metaphorical round hole, losing a lot in the process. But Odium also is the individual strongest because he’s never put down rules to his own shardic system, “because I say so” works great when it’s just him but awful when trying to delegate or interact with others. So maybe the 10th surge got doubled up in the 9th void power or is inaccessible because it was one of the things cast by the wayside in the translation.
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Oct 11, 2020 22:43
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So I just finished reading The Way of Kings and…drat, that was an amazing book! Nice to have a thick, brick of a novel that also had me page turning relentlessly. My one other experience with Sanderson was when I tried to read Mistborn a few years ago, and kind of bounced off of it (the writing just felt too weirdly clinical). Way of Kings has the same sense of clinicalness, but it completely worked for me this time, probably because the world and the characters were so engaging. Love me a fantasy world that’s completely alien but also completely thought out and realized. I loved the central world-building premise: this is a planet that’s kind of like Earth, but there are magical hurricanes that sweep through the lands at random about once every week or two, and the flora and fauna has adapted to it, so plants have shells and most of the prominent animals are giant crustaceans. Oh, and human settlements are all built like bunkers to survive the giant, magic hurricanes. Oh, and the magi-tek that the modern society thrives on is fueled by the magic energy that the magic storms put off, so the entire economy revolves around rechargeable batteries that store that magic energy. Also, I liked how super-stodgy and messed up the culture of the Alethi was, with their insanely weird and rigid ideas about gender roles. Women aren’t allowed to do manual labor or fight, but men aren’t allowed to freaking *read* or eat sweet things, unless you take a vow of celibacy and join the clergy. It’s a great, exaggerated way of showing how arbitrary and nonsensical gender roles are in general. The ‘safe-hand, free-hand’ bit is a great invention too, with women blatantly hampering themselves because of the arbitrary rules of the patriarchy. It’s just as silly as covering your hair or your ankles or whatever, but in a more in-your-face way. Women can’t use their left hands in public because some old guy a thousand years ago thought that might be scandalously sexy. The big selling point of the book was Kaladin and Bridge Four’s arc. That rocked. I agree with the criticism that there could have been fewer Kaladin flashbacks –the kind of hit the same note a few times—but I actually thought that the reliving of the much-telegraphed death of his little brother came at the perfect time in the story. Kaladin’s whole thing is about being disillusioned by the way the upper brass in the military throws away the little people’s lives, and that scene hit that note perfectly. Also, after all the epic battles and such, the real climax of the book was the scene where Dalinar beats the poo poo out of his idiot nephew of a king, and repeatedly slaps his hand to keep him from summoning his shardblade while he’s laying down the rules of how they’re doing things in the future. I laughed so hard at the end of that chapter. “Oh. By the way, I’m courting your mother now. Get used to it." I immediately bought Words of Radiance and I’m about three chapters in now. My one big criticism of Sanderson is that he rarely tries to reach for poetic, descriptive language, which is something I just tend to like a lot in fiction. I get the impression that he’s just decided that that’s something he can’t pull off, and works around it, and in this series it works pretty well. He’ll just, you know, never be able to write an action sequence with the sort of verisimilitude and emotionality that Joe Abercrombie brings to the table, or the sweepingly evocative descriptions of the scenery that you’d get from other writers, but Sanderson knows that’s not his thing and concentrates on other stuff. And it works.
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Oct 13, 2020 05:14
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TOOT BOOT posted:It always spooks me a little how normal Sanderson is. Like a lot of times artists are tortured in some way and you get the opposite vibe of that from Sanderson. Like he's the reference model stamped out in the human factory or something. Eh. Like with most writers Sanderson strikes me as a deeply empathetic person. Normally, with your standard depressive writer-type personality, being empathetic will lead you down a path of depression and/or alcoholism, but Sanderson seems to have managed to channel his empathy towards earnestly engaging with the broad community of fellow fantasy nerds. Gotta respect that. Seems like the healthiest way to go.
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Oct 13, 2020 05:23
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Chapter 15 of Rhythm of War is up: https://www.tor.com/2020/10/13/read-rhythm-of-war-by-brandon-sanderson-chapter-fifteen/ EDIT: RoW and Cosmere spoilers Rlain is still around. I thought he was gonna go track down the remainder of the listeners who didn't get forced into stormform but he's teaching the Alethi how to grow plants in Urithiru using stormlight from gemhearts triggered by playing one of the Rhythms?! The listeners had a different magic with the Rhythms!!! SO SO SO SO SO COOL. Also Vasher using his Awakener powers in a spar with Kaladin while they have a conversation about Vivenna, Hoid, Type Two Invested entities (Cognitive Shadows like Returned, Szeth and the Heralds), and Endowment. Does this mean he's finally cracked the secret on how to convert Stormlight to Breaths that he can Awaken with and not just to sustain him? WHEN CAN WE HAVE NIGHTBLOOD I want to know what happened after Warbreaker. Leng fucked around with this message at 14:38 on Oct 13, 2020 |
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Oct 13, 2020 14:18
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Leng posted:Chapter 15 of Rhythm of War is up: This chapter was the best one so far. I love Cosmere poo poo.
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Oct 13, 2020 15:17
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