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Pick posted:Yes, hence pointing out the Oklahoma State bombing. That absolutely didn't work, it did not accomplish ANY of its societal goals despite being in many ways the more successful version of what they were planning. Timothy McVeigh didn't meet Terry Nichols at a rally where the two of them also met with the Republican state senate leadership for Oklahoma. The Michigan kidnap plotters met at a rally where they also met, behind closed doors, with Mike Shirkey, the Republican State Senate majority leader. This is the same guy holding an anti-Whitmer rally today: https://www.michiganadvance.com/202...ot-against-her/ I hope you understand the difference between these two actions and how much more dangerous ultra-right terrorism has become now that advocates of its underlying ideology have taken control of the Republican party apparatus.
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Oct 9, 2020 18:56
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:https://twitter.com/benpershing/status/1314599249812877312 You guys seeing this too? It's literally a sea change in the power calculus in Washington. Trump is now begging the Senate Rs to throw him a bone. This is a far cry from the impeachment where anyone breaking ranks was threatened with ostracization and damnation come the election.
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Oct 9, 2020 18:57
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Seven Hundred Bee posted:are you kidding? it is an explicit leftist talking point: we can't hold the white working class responsible for their racism because their viewpoint is the product of a capitalist system which foments racial divisions to keep workers who share economic interests aligned from coalescing into a majority coalition. There was also the leftist argument that "if only the Democrats offered real economic solutions (i.e. socialism), then these people would vote for them!"
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Oct 9, 2020 18:58
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CuddleCryptid posted:One of the terrorists had a flag that had a black background and a red circle with a red line drawn horizontally through it. It wasn't the anarchist "A" but they are pretending it was. You sure it's not an anarchist flag?  This is from the video of Brandon Caserta at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJSf-nO8A5s
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Oct 9, 2020 19:00
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Trump is so obviously not party to any of these stimulus negotiations and has absolutely no loving clue what’s going on or any sense of direction.
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Oct 9, 2020 19:02
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Vire posted:Please start a war in the GOP about stimulus. Please. Someone mentioned he could pull Barrett if he wanted to, I hope he does that on Monday; maybe someone will be able to manage to tell him Mitch is trying to gently caress him over.
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Oct 9, 2020 19:03
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Groovelord Neato posted:The "economic anxiety" poo poo is generally a liberal talking point not a leftist one. It was the major publications which rolled with it after the election because it'd be too uncouth to say it was racism. The NYT and poo poo was the ones that continue to do Trump voter safaris in all the wrong places (apart from Politco visiting the Villages). None of them were honest about Trump's base being economically comfortable suburban and exurbanites. This is 100% untrue. It gets brought up a lot by the 'it is about class, not race' flavor of leftist who argue that focusing on anything but class is pointless. I don't see them in here but they were pretty loud in some of the Bernie groups I was in.
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Oct 9, 2020 19:03
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Seven Hundred Bee posted:in fact, that was a key assumption in bernie's campaign - that he could win back largely white, rural, working class voters who switched in 2016 by running on populist economic policy which would benefit those groups as the policies would benefits all workers (in opposition to the capital holding class). And of course Bernie was right about this.
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Oct 9, 2020 19:04
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Meatball posted:Someone mentioned he could pull Barrett if he wanted to, I hope he does that on Monday; maybe someone will be able to manage to tell him Mitch is trying to gently caress him over. Trump is not smart enough to play that strategically. He wants both ACB on the court and a big stimulus so he's going to loudly demand both. Then again he's doped up on steroids so who knows.
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Oct 9, 2020 19:05
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DaveWoo posted:There was also the leftist argument that "if only the Democrats offered real economic solutions (i.e. socialism), then these people would vote for them!" While this isn't exactly wrong, I feel like the economic plans aren't an attempt to get Republicans to vote for a democrat, but to get the people who dont vote because they feel like politicians aren't trying to improve things.
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Oct 9, 2020 19:06
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Seven Hundred Bee posted:are you kidding? it is an explicit leftist talking point: we can't hold the white working class responsible for their racism because their viewpoint is the product of a capitalist system which foments racial divisions to keep workers who share economic interests from coalescing into a majority coalition. in fact, that was a key assumption in bernie's campaign - that he could win back largely white, rural, working class voters who switched in 2016 by running on populist economic policy which would benefit those groups as the policies would benefits all workers (in opposition to the capital holding class). ImpAtom posted:This is 100% untrue. It gets brought up a lot by the 'it is about class, not race' flavor of leftist who argue that focusing on anything but class is pointless. I don't see them in here but they were pretty loud in some of the Bernie groups I was in. Neither of your posts actually refute mine.
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Oct 9, 2020 19:06
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Any argument that it isn't about race is itself a racist argument. If I tell you the income of a voter without telling you their race, you don't have better than normal odds of guessing their vote. If I tell you the race without telling you their income, you do. The fact that working class black voters don't vote for Republicans and working class white voters do isn't an accident, and even if you hold every other demographic factor in place, you still can't get to "you just aren't appealing to the working class the right way" without erasing black voters. Edit: It's actually worse than this, because you will also have to erase women voters to get there after this year. As a white man, gently caress appealing to the white male demographic, their demands are subjugation and after 4 years of mask-off poo poo it's time to flip the script on them BougieBitch fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Oct 9, 2020 |
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Oct 9, 2020 19:09
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Seven Hundred Bee posted:are you kidding? it is an explicit leftist talking point: we can't hold the white working class responsible for their racism because their viewpoint is the product of a capitalist system which foments racial divisions to keep workers who share economic interests from coalescing into a majority coalition. in fact, that was a key assumption in bernie's campaign - that he could win back largely white, rural, working class voters who switched in 2016 by running on populist economic policy which would benefit those groups as the policies would benefits all workers (in opposition to the capital holding class). Bernie is a liberal, not a leftist.
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Oct 9, 2020 19:10
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ImpAtom posted:This is 100% untrue. It gets brought up a lot by the 'it is about class, not race' flavor of leftist who argue that focusing on anything but class is pointless. I don't see them in here but they were pretty loud in some of the Bernie groups I was in. Yeah as a leftist I see this poo poo being trotted out by idiotic Jacobin-adjacent white leftists who have no awareness of intersectional issues more than I see it being trotted out by liberals. The liberal equivalent is thinking Biden should peel off nervous suburban whites who voted for Trump by putting Cindy McCain on his transition team and triangulating hard on issues like fracking that don't even have majority support because his campaign consultants identified five people in suburban Pennsylvania who are allergic to the phrase "foreign oil", not that he can appeal to poor rural whites with an economic populism platform or that chuds can somehow be rehabilitated.
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Oct 9, 2020 19:11
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Eminai posted:Bernie is a liberal, not a leftist. Ah yes, leftism cannot fail, it can only be failed. Seriously what is this bullshit 
Angry_Ed fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Oct 9, 2020 |
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Oct 9, 2020 19:11
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Eminai posted:Bernie is a liberal, not a leftist. You can't gatekeep Leftism.
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Oct 9, 2020 19:13
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Seven Hundred Bee posted:are you kidding? it is an explicit leftist talking point: we can't hold the white working class responsible for their racism because their viewpoint is the product of a capitalist system which foments racial divisions to keep workers who share economic interests from coalescing into a majority coalition. in fact, that was a key assumption in bernie's campaign - that he could win back largely white, rural, working class voters who switched in 2016 by running on populist economic policy which would benefit those groups as the policies would benefits all workers (in opposition to the capital holding class). This is a misunderstanding of the basic argument that looks something like this: Economic scarcity leads to vulnerability that can either endogenously turn to scape goating/attacking a perceived "other", or serve as a wedge that can be slammed into it externally via demagogues and other structured attacks ("they're stealing your jorbs"), where in this case that form of attack is racism for numerous structural reasons in the US. If you could snap your finger and solve racism over night (whatever the hell that would even look like), you've mostly just fixed a symptom and the circumstances that give rise to it remains, leaving it vulnerable to either falling back into racism itself or being stoked once again. If you provide economic support and resources that help build up the local/regional economy and get the most vulnerable taken care of while adding in safety nets that relieve the fear of falling back into it, you've fixed a crucial point of attack in stoking racial tensions, and can then start working on solving that problem. This all gets further complicated by the fact that some people are just hatefilled assholes and cultural and social norms can take a long time to deprogram, but very few serious advocates and writers on the topic in leftist circles are out there screaming "if you fix the economy, racism magically disappears". They are saying "you can't fix racism without addressing the material conditions that make it such an easy/tempting answer".
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Oct 9, 2020 19:13
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TaintedBalance posted:This is a misunderstanding of the basic argument that looks something like this: You just restated my point - which is that for some leftists racism is a symptom of capitalism, and therefore racists are on some level victims, which does function to excuse their beliefs and actions to an extent. The Oldest Man posted:Yeah as a leftist I see this poo poo being trotted out by idiotic Jacobin-adjacent white leftists who have no awareness of intersectional issues more than I see it being trotted out by liberals. The liberal equivalent is thinking Biden should peel off nervous suburban whites who voted for Trump by putting Cindy McCain on his transition team and triangulating hard on issues like fracking that don't even have majority support because his campaign consultants identified five people in suburban Pennsylvania who are allergic to the phrase "foreign oil", not that he can appeal to poor rural whites with an economic populism platform or that chuds can somehow be rehabilitated. Jacobin-adjacent performative Marxists who believe the only place for praxis is a college political science classroom are unfortunately (for all of us) still leftists.
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Oct 9, 2020 19:16
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Pick posted:People would absolutely commit assassinations more often if they were successful in a broad sense. The reason that it has almost always been crazy people like Guiteau is it really really really does not work. Gabby Giffords getting shot didn't stop her husband, and Feinstein's dead friends didn't stop her from ascending to the Senate. Seems like it's been pretty successful when used to stop militant left wing PoC
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Oct 9, 2020 19:17
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Trump has literally word for word ranted about how he wanted a bigger stimulus package than the Dems were offering multiple times since all the way back in March. His words mean absolutely nothing as they have no authority over anything.
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Oct 9, 2020 19:17
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Pakistani Brad Pitt posted:Seems like it's been pretty successful when used to stop militant left wing PoC Do you like Steve Scalise more because he got shot in the penis? Would you have been more sympathetic to his party if the penis shooting has been fatal?
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Oct 9, 2020 19:18
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Eminai posted:Bernie is a liberal, not a leftist. Source your quotes
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Oct 9, 2020 19:18
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Remember fifty years ago, back in February, when Rush Limbaugh was diagnosed with stage 4 lung cancer? What I'm saying is: hurry up already.
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Oct 9, 2020 19:20
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Pakistani Brad Pitt posted:Seems like it's been pretty successful when used to stop militant left wing PoC The point is that use of force is monopolized by government/entrenched power. Obviously assassinations work pretty well when the US does them to other countries to install sympathetic leaders, but they aren't a meaningful tool for the oppressed to beat their oppressors
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Oct 9, 2020 19:20
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Could this 25th talk be more about the lame duck session? Get the 25th in the American public's mind... republicans get more blame when trump sabotages the country(for not stopping him), or trump knows he can get embarrassingly 25th'd so he does less sabotaging? Reading too far into it? Maybe pelosi just wants the media out there talking about crazy presidents.
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Oct 9, 2020 19:21
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Someone having an anarchist flag hanging in their bedroom is largely meaningless, and 99% of the anarchist symbols out in the wild are in no way related to an ideology. They sell that poo poo at Hot Topic
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Oct 9, 2020 19:21
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Seven Hundred Bee posted:Jacobin-adjacent performative Marxists who believe the only place for praxis is a college political science classroom are unfortunately (for all of us) still leftists. I didn't say they weren't.
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Oct 9, 2020 19:22
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bobua posted:Could this 25th talk be more about the lame duck session? That was my thinking. If Trump collapses into a gibbering ball of anger and spite after losing the election, maybe the Rs might want to cut their losses, once they've achieved their 6-3 SCOTUS majority. On the other hand, it'd just be more of a disaster for a Biden administration to clean up after, and I suspect they'll still be scared of his base, so maybe not.
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Oct 9, 2020 19:24
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Pakistani Brad Pitt posted:Seems like it's been pretty successful when used to stop militant left wing PoC Dubar posted:Someone having an anarchist flag hanging in their bedroom is largely meaningless, and 99% of the anarchist symbols out in the wild are in no way related to an ideology. They sell that poo poo at Hot Topic turns out there are many flavors of nuts with guns who all want to kill anyone left of reagan InsertPotPun fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Oct 9, 2020 |
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Oct 9, 2020 19:25
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 https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1314627983471239168?s=20
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Oct 9, 2020 19:25
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bobua posted:Could this 25th talk be more about the lame duck session? The bill they've proposed specifically applies to Presidents after Trump. It's about formalizing the process envisioned by the 25th Amendment to involve Congress that has never been implemented. Any relationship to our current President and any issues surrounding him are completely coincidental and this totally isn't a political gambit to focus popular attention and cast doubt on Trump's current mental state. Pinkie Swear.
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Oct 9, 2020 19:25
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Class reductionists 100 percent exist and may be vocal but they are not the mainstream of the left in this country. The "economic anxiety" narrative was pushed by mainstream publications and the political commentators who correctly identified the Trump (and the general GOP) base were/are leftist. Who are the people that act like Trump is some aberration?
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Oct 9, 2020 19:26
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I wouldn't read too much into the 25th Amendment talk. I think it's just Pelosi trying to put Trump's physical and mental fitness on the ballot to an even greater extent and hoping to provoke him into another embarrassing public meltdown.Groovelord Neato posted:Class reductionists 100 percent exist and may be vocal but they are not the mainstream of the left in this country. The "economic anxiety" narrative was pushed by mainstream publications and the political commentators who correctly identified the Trump (and the general GOP) base were/are leftist. Who are the people that act like Trump is some aberration? You said these people do not exist on the left, but instead are liberals, which was wrong.
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Oct 9, 2020 19:26
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Seven Hundred Bee posted:Jacobin-adjacent performative Marxists Excuse me?
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Oct 9, 2020 19:27
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What in the gently caress was that, dude sounds out of breathe and is talking crazy.
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Oct 9, 2020 19:27
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Boris Galerkin posted:https://twitter.com/mviser/status/1314622019309375489?s=21 "What do you people want? I will literally sign anything. You want a million dollars? I wanna give you a million dollars! Please just vote for me, I'll do anything."
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Oct 9, 2020 19:28
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Seven Hundred Bee posted:You just restated my point - which is that for some leftists racism is a symptom of capitalism, and therefore racists are on some level victims, which does function to excuse their beliefs and actions to an extent. No I did not, read closer. You specifically state that a central component of the argument is " we can't hold the white working class responsible for their racism" which is not in alignment with what I posted. We CAN and should hold them accountable, but we can't do just that alone, and it needs to be part of an effort that also addresses material conditions that have helped give rise to it. You keep trying to turn it into some kind of class reductionist argument, which while they do exist, aren't the predominant narrative being pushed by leftists that I see, even by places like Jacobin (generally, I'm sure there are some hot takes in that direction).
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Oct 9, 2020 19:28
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I sort of suspected if we do end up in a situation where we have a lame duck period, Trump will probably start groveling and potentially rolling over on people to try to get ahead of when he no longer has the protection of the presidency.
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Oct 9, 2020 19:28
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He's crossed the gently caress-line. I wish it mattered.
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Oct 9, 2020 19:31
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Love that they’re just letting the big orange baby whine and cry on all his PR platforms with reckless abandon. They’ve given up on controlling him because what’s the point - he’s losing the election so there’s no point in trying to save him from embarrassing himself anymore than usual.
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Oct 9, 2020 19:31
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