Cyberpunk 2077: Personal Respawns Ability

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punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

There's like a huge effort thread about the controversies in ResetEra that I kind of want to copy and post but I'm afraid that I'll be ridiculed for doing so.

# ? Oct 20, 2020 19:38

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# ? May 1, 2024 11:14

CottonWolf: Jul 20, 2012; Good ideas generator

# ? Oct 20, 2020 19:40

Catgirl Al Capone: Dec 15, 2007

punk rebel ecks posted:

There's like a huge effort thread about the controversies in ResetEra that I kind of want to copy and post but I'm afraid that I'll be ridiculed for doing so.

maybe it's misguided but I have faith that on SA even if a handful of people are reactionary assholes in defense of a video game they want to play a mature discussion can be had over these issues despite them, idk I'd post it

# ? Oct 20, 2020 19:49

Back Hack: Jan 17, 2010

haldolium posted:

why Australia... sounds like one of the worse choices to get away from the things going on in Poland. Except if you like 180� turn in what to expect from The Weather.

also whats Cyberpunk really worth if there is no Ampere :grumpy:

That�s where her parents live and they live in the middle of nowhere, which is safer than where they are now, in which they feel they�re in immediate danger.

# ? Oct 20, 2020 19:50

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

Here's the link to the thread.

It's so extensive it's difficult for me to even do some highlights but I may attend to do so a bit later when I get home from work.

# ? Oct 20, 2020 20:04

Zaphod42: Sep 13, 2012; If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.

CottonWolf posted:

It's amazing how much better good lighting makes those character rigs look. The faces look dead in that, but in game they look pretty great.

Its the lack of shaders. In other softwares / renderers you usually get a default flat shader. Its the lack of shaders that's making them look so dead. The skin and hair and everything is being lit the same way, so it looks fake or plastic.

In the actually game, the hair, skin, glasses, implants, earrings, etc. will each have different shader materials with different lighting settings for reflectance, sub-surface scattering, etc.

# ? Oct 20, 2020 20:08

haldolium: Oct 22, 2016

Back Hack posted:

That�s where her parents live and they live in the middle of nowhere, which is safer than where they are now, in which they feel they�re in immediate danger.

idk.. there are still insects trice the size of what we have around here.

Zaphod42 posted:

Its the lack of shaders. In other softwares / renderers you usually get a default flat shader. Its the lack of shaders that's making them look so dead. The skin and hair and everything is being lit the same way, so it looks fake or plastic.

In the actually game, the hair, skin, glasses, implants, earrings, etc. will each have different shader materials with different lighting settings for reflectance, sub-surface scattering, etc.

It's a different renderer probably, it's mostly lighting since there are not shadows and different shading due to different renderer as well as animations do not need the final image composure which just distracts from the process. You want a homgenous lit environment if you're doing 3d animation. Textures help (and for facial animation especially might be even needed) but usually that process is detached entirely from final rendering.

# ? Oct 20, 2020 20:40

Catgirl Al Capone: Dec 15, 2007

punk rebel ecks posted:

Here's the link to the thread.

It's so extensive it's difficult for me to even do some highlights but I may attend to do so a bit later when I get home from work.

I'll transcribe (heh) it here, sectioned off into different quotes, it's on the long side but not unreadably so so I decided to only do bare minimum cuts to maintain as much context as possible:

Context posted:

I want to start by giving some grounding to the issue as far too often we have the refrain of "it's just a game" levelled against us. The truth is that the majority of people don't know someone who is openly trans. Have had no known contact with someone that is openly trans and therefore have little direct relation to the issues we face, our lives and our bodies. The majority of information people do receive about us is via the media they consume. The issue here is that trans representation or depiction in media has historically been either through mockery or disgust, and more commonly now � fetishization. We are set dressing for laughs, for being reviled or for pleasure. Frequently reduced down to our genitals and bodies in favour of seeing a person. Due to this, the way media presents us is in direct relation to the abuse, harm and threats we face in life. For more of an understanding around this in relation to film, I recommend the Netflix documentary Disclosure. This issue extends across all media, including games and print. People frequently perceive us through these depictions and when we're presented as little more than a joke, that's what we're taken as.

So if it is 'just a game' to you, consider why it isn't able to be for others. How you can help others enjoy them as just games, and not something they have to question how much mockery or harm they're expected to endure while interacting with them.

Tweets posted:

On the 20th August 2018 the official Cyberpunk twitter posted this tweet response:

This initial instance can seem innocuous on the surface but it's a transphobic line conjured around "outrage culture" and the notion that trans people are looking to be offended. Which, naturally, is a common pushback from people that are being offensive and how this joke is usually employed. Trans people don't respond to being misgendered with "did you assume my gender?". In fact most trans people are terrified of even raising the fact that they are being misgendered. Contesting this is something that can frequently put you in harms way and unless you're speaking to an out and out ally it's always a dice roll as to how it will be received. Often it will be through mocking, and this is where the point of transphobic jokes is worth highlighting. It renders our identities as fanciful and frivolous; something to be tolerated instead of accepted. When trans identities aren't taken seriously it directly affects our ability to live as who we are.

There is no distinction between the joke and the transphobia because transphobia has persistently centered itself around the notion that we are a joke.

In response Cyberpunk posted this:

People who have had to deal with bigotry will recognise the all-too-common apology of "sorry to those offended". The apology isn't a recognition that their actions were transphobic nor a statement that trans identities are valid. Instead it appeals to that which we've just mentioned; those that see trans people as people constantly offended by everything. It doesn't offer a recognition that the act itself was the issue, but that it happened to offend some people.

...

A couple of months later, on the 22nd October 2018, the twitter account for CDPR's online storefront GOG posted this tweet:

This made light of the hashtag #WontBeErased on Twitter that, at the time, was trending because of a Trump administration memo that proposed a strict definition of gender based on a person�s genitalia at birth. Something that would work toward the erasure of trans identities. Anyone viewing the hashtag would have seen the context in which it sat. This wasn't the first issue the GOG twitter account had had either, with a prior tweet appealing to the same alt-right fanbase by posting a tweet around the death of journalism and Gamergate.

In response, and to their credit, GOG fired the person involved who then went on to work for an alt-right website. However three troubling tweets in almost as many months caused concern around the culture across the two companies, and the tolerance for transphobia in their working environment.

Cyberpunk 2077 Adverts / 'It's a Dystopia' posted:

In one of the gameplay reveals in June 2019 this poster was spotted on a surface in the game:

It depicts a fetishized caricature of a trans women, complete with over-emphasised erection, the phrase "Mix It Up" and the name of the advertised drink; "Chromanticore". The issue will be apparent to many but I'll break it down so it's clear. First of all you have the character; a fetishized image of a trans woman's body that is only there to highlight the "trans" nature of her. As mentioned in the opening paragraphs this falls into one of the common ways in which transphobia manifests; reducing us down to our genitals for display at the expense of any sense of us as people. "Mix It Up" implies the frivolous nature of being trans as though we pick and choose our gender identity. Again falling victim to another form of transphobia.

Finally we have "Chromanticore" which on a generous read is a mix of "chrome" and "manticore" and at worst "chromosome" and "manticore". Forgiving the ambiguity of the first word the second still becomes inherently insulting. A manticore is a mythical beast comprised of parts of different animals. On a more subtle level it literally means "man eater", where the fear of men being "tricked" into falling for a trans woman resonates � though I highly doubt this specific aspect was part of the thought process, it works to support the fact that we need more trans women working on products that aim to depict us. On the overt and obvious, it's depicting an over-emphasised trans woman while relating her to a beast. Trans people will know all too well the common insults thrown at them in disgust (3 for 3), relating them to being unnatural or monsters.

In response to the criticism raised, CDPR came out with a response that included the following justification:

�Personally, for me, this person is sexy,� Redesiuk said. �I like how this person looks. However, this model is used � their beautiful body is used � for corporate reasons. They are displayed there just as a thing, and that�s the terrible part of it.�

�This is all to show that [much like in our modern world], hypersexualization in advertisements is just terrible,� Redesiuk continued. �It was a conscious choice on our end to show that in this world � a world where you are a cyberpunk, a person fighting against corporations. That [advertisement] is what you�re fighting against.�

Which rings hollow in a few ways. The most apparent being that CDPR, themselves a massive corporation, are content to invoke this imagery and defend its use while simultaneously promoting the game as diverse and inclusive. This isn't just true of their use of it in the game, but also their literal use of it in offline events as set dressing and promo material:

Which only compounds the next point that you cannot state that it is terrible and what one is supposed to fight against, while continuing to position it front and center � completely decoupled from that message. It just becomes a transphobic advert being used to promote a game to make money for a massive corporation. In addition, there were cans of the drink available � a drink that is supposed to facilitate being trans � labelled as poison. One tone deaf incident is forgiven but when multiple elements come together, all transphobic, you start to question how much it's an articulation of issues in society, and how much it's using these things to reinforce a veneer of edge around their product. Appealing to a crowd of people all too content to mock trans people, at the expense of those being targeted.

This also isn't the only advert that comes at the expense of trans bodies either, as we can see below:

With no intent to explain the alleged nuance outside of defending the artwork, it's hard to take it seriously. These are plastered across Night City and seen in most promotional videos that have been put out about the game. No such video or message contextualizing these elements has been given alongside. Instead we have endless reams of how cool everything looks, what the guns are like and what Porsche model will be in the game. As mentioned earlier, if CDPR wanted to clarify these things and extend some consideration toward the trans community around them, they could � and would � have done. As it is, they're content to continue to use this imagery and claim diversity, all while leaving the extent of how much transphobic content will be in the game ambiguous to those trans people interested.

The response of "it's a dystopia it's meant to be bad" holds little weight as well when these things are constantly decoupled from any actual criticism. This is moving past the fact that just because a setting is supposed to be bad doesn't mean we need to lean on transphobia as a means to depict it. There's plenty of other awful things that the game will not invoke or use to facilitate this, and fetishizing and mocking us as the backdrop to it is an easy target. Especially in the knowledge that many fans see zero issue with these things, including Mike Pondsmith himself, so the extent to which that "terrible" message is landing is already minor.

Political Sympathies posted:

In among this, it's important to bring the grounding that CDPR operates from a country that's in the midst of a nationwide crackdown on trans people and all those within the LGBTQ+ community. This has garnered worldwide condemnation and even brought into question the IOC's choice of hosting the Olympics there. Townships have declared themselves LGBT-Free and propaganda seeking to exile members of the community is regularly passed around, in some cases even being included with news publications.

In addition to further raising suspicion around the internal culture of CDPR with regard transphobia, it also becomes a direct concern when met against the content being spoken of in the game. In particular because in a recent interview with Paweł Sasko, the Lead Quest Designer on CP77, the politics of staff was mentioned:

As a studio, we are such an amalgam of different people who have different approaches to political, religious, spiritual and internal life, also when it comes to sexual orientations or political sympathies. As a studio, we always try to cultivate openness and approach it in such a way that everyone can have a voice and to represent each of these shades, as long as it is of course within the law and reason - so that each player can find here something for everyone and find answers to your own questions.

Speaking to the importance of representing various political sympathies becomes concerning when you have both the above context and a company, and game, that have pandered to the alt-right and had numerous instances of transphobia. It becomes hard to not draw the line between this disregard of trans people in the game and in the output of the company, with that importance and the political climate of Poland.

If you are interested in learning more about the situation in Poland further information can be found here (1, 2, 3), and you can support directly here.

Character Creator posted:

After speaking heavily to how inclusive Cyberpunk 2077 would be, it's been confirmed that the character creator will tie the pronouns the game uses to refer to the character with, with the pitch of voice chosen. Meaning that if you choose a traditionally female body type but select a deeper voice, your character will be referred to as "he" or "him" in the game's dialogue. Voice pitch is a sensitive issue in the trans community and with transition as HRT has no bearing on your voice when transitioning as a trans woman, or toward transfeminine identities. As a direct result it becomes something that many trans people are conscious of when they attempt to pass, as it's an element that works against you when people frequently associate a deep voice to being a man, and a high voice to being a women. This in a very real sense is an issue of safety for trans people offline, as having a deeper voice while presenting femme can result in abuse. However it isn't an immediate black or white picture when it comes to how trans people feel about their voice outside of those issues. Your voice is as personal to you as anything else, and there are many trans people that would prefer to be able to feel comfortable using their real voice as opposed to putting in considerable effort toward changing it in the hope of better acceptance.

So the consequence of the character creator is one that allows for cis people to make a "chick with a dick" a la the controversial poster, at the expense of trans people being able to create characters that represent them. Once again, it seems to highlight the nature of "diversity" when it comes to CP77; that it's commonly aimed toward the cisgender crowd over showing consideration for transgender people and true inclusivity. This hasn't prevented CDPR from lapping up a lot of publicity claiming that it is inclusive though, and in effect having their cake and eating it. Too often we now have cis people come back to us touting this alleged inclusivity and character creator, in the face of our issues with the game.

Official Cosplay Competition posted:

Now we have the most recent example of CDPR's disdain for trans people. If you recall the defense for the caricature of the trans woman in the "Chromanticore" poster was that the fetishization of the trans character was to be seen as "terrible". Something CDPR claim to see as something that should be fought against. Which as discussed is already brought into question by their own use of it in offline promos, but is completely blown apart by their choice of finalist in their recent cosplay competition. Not just via social media, but in their official Night City Wire pre-presentation.

I do believe a cisgender woman can cosplay a trans woman, and that there's little issue if it's done respectfully. That isn't the case here though. This isn't a trans character in the game with any given depth, it's an illustration in an advert whose sole purpose is to fetishize the body of a trans woman, where her transness is reduced in full to her genitals and a comparison is drawn to a beast. The only reason it was of any note was because of the controversy surrounding it and the issues trans people had with it, so it's hard not to find the choice suspect in the first place.

What solidifies the problem is when the cisgender woman in question is treating that aspect of the trans woman as a joke; as something to laugh at. Drawing primary attention once again to the genitals and making it the central part of the cosplay. There's no desire to become any character, but instead become a walking mockery of a trans person that was only ever there to begin with as a fetishization. It's not as though cisgender women are de-facto in support of the rights of trans women, so when someone is treating our bodies as something to be laughed over, and is roleplaying us purely to serve for comedic purposes, I find it poor � to put it mildly. It further reinforces us as a joke, and that in itself is transphobic.

This loops back to the advert itself, as mentioned before the justification was that it was intended to be terrible, in addition to:

If it's designed to be a terrible and distasteful advert working at the expense of trans women � something CDPR themselves tells us we should be fighting against � you can't then decouple it from the criticism to use frivolously for laughs or promotional material. Promoting someone taking that imagery, further accenting and highlighting the parts we're supposed to take issue with, all while laughing about it, renders that original intent meaningless. Put bluntly; when you're flying people out to take part in a video shoot for your promo and they're walking around with a fake neon penis representing the thing you claim to hate, how can we take any notion of nuance around trans people, issues and bodies seriously within both CDPR and Cyberpunk 2077?

CDPR are content to exploit both their workers and trans people for financial gain, alongside courting an obvious and loud alt-right fanbase posted:

They are a transphobic company content to lean on inclusivity as a promotional tool at the expense of trans people. Consistently treating us with ridicule and afterthought while claiming the opposite. They are happy to foster a toxic work environment grinding their workers to the bone. They are happy to lean into the chud fanbase they know they've garnered over the years.

It is obvious they don't care about us, but they still care about the fans that stick with them regardless. So it is in this that I ask that even if you're hyped to jump into Night City, you become vocal about these issues and offer support in bringing their attention to CDPR. Whether it's here, on Twitter or in feedback forms � letting them know that you're a fan but you dislike the way they have acted toward the trans community is of value. If you aren't willing to be critical of a company you like while enjoying their product, at the expense of trans voices, then � insofar as I'm concerned � you can't consider yourself a trans ally. If that stings, it should, because it means that you're aware that you allow your excitement of a game prevent you from supporting the communities it takes advantage of.

What's often missing from the retorts is that I was once hyped for the game. The logo treatment reveal was stunning, the art direction posters were a lock for purchase. It looked great. However when it becomes a question of how much transphobic content I'll be expected to put up with as I attempt to enjoy the game, it's hard to remain enthused by it. It becomes a question of why I'm supporting a company that's repeatedly showing they're content to mock people like me, and perpetuate stereotypes that affect us offline in life. That continue the lines of thought that place our lives in danger and our respect in question.

This isn't some "rah rah boycott" motion that people like to distill it down to. It's what it feels like when you face a company and product that comes at the expense of you and others like you. If you don't know what that feels like, consider how fortunate it is that you get to engage with this medium without such a concern. Perhaps become more active in lending your voice toward choruses like this, so that we too can enjoy games without it. If there's one thing I'm sure of it's that both CDPR and Cyberpunk 2077 have the ability to be great without being transphobic.

# ? Oct 20, 2020 21:34

Goodfeila: Apr 25, 2010

I'm excited to play this video game, and I hope that both the gameplay and story are good!

# ? Oct 20, 2020 21:59

grieving for Gandalf: Apr 22, 2008

it seems like advertising and marketing in cyberpunk settings is meant to be troubling and make one think about the place of those institutions in our own society. the ad in CP2077 uses a fetishized image of a transwoman to sell soda or something, the point of which seems clear: exploitation this way to sell a product is wack

it's challenging media, and I have to say, it looks like it's working because now people are talking about transpeople's place in society and the commodification of their bodies because of it

am I way off base here?

# ? Oct 20, 2020 22:01

Catgirl Al Capone: Dec 15, 2007

grieving for Gandalf posted:

it seems like advertising and marketing in cyberpunk settings is meant to be troubling and make one think about the place of those institutions in our own society. the ad in CP2077 uses a fetishized image of a transwoman to sell soda or something, the point of which seems clear: exploitation this way to sell a product is wack

it's challenging media, and I have to say, it looks like it's working because now people are talking about transpeople's place in society and the commodification of their bodies because of it

am I way off base here?

I advise reading the quote block labelled "Cyberpunk 2077 Adverts / 'It's a Dystopia'" for their answer to that take

# ? Oct 20, 2020 22:06

CottonWolf: Jul 20, 2012; Good ideas generator

grieving for Gandalf posted:

it seems like advertising and marketing in cyberpunk settings is meant to be troubling and make one think about the place of those institutions in our own society. the ad in CP2077 uses a fetishized image of a transwoman to sell soda or something, the point of which seems clear: exploitation this way to sell a product is wack

it's challenging media, and I have to say, it looks like it's working because now people are talking about transpeople's place in society and the commodification of their bodies because of it

am I way off base here?

This is my take on the stuff actually in the game, considing that their in game advertisments fetishise cis bodies, if anything, more extensively. But it looks pretty clear to me based on all that that CDPR have issues with transphobia at the communications level. Like, what the hell is going on with their twitter account? There's no justification for that.

# ? Oct 20, 2020 22:08

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

CottonWolf posted:

This is my take on the stuff actually in the game, considing that their in game advertisments fetishise cis bodies, if anything, more extensively. But it looks pretty clear to me based on all that that CDPR have issues with transphobia at the communications level. Like, what the hell is going on with their twitter account? There's no justification for that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmqVyw5EzOY

Goodfeila posted:

I'm excited to play this video game, and I hope that both the gameplay and story are good!

I won't allow this to happen

# ? Oct 20, 2020 22:11

TheRat: Aug 30, 2006

Goodfeila posted:

I'm excited to play this video game, and I hope that both the gameplay and story are good!

Heck, same.

# ? Oct 20, 2020 22:13

grieving for Gandalf: Apr 22, 2008

CottonWolf posted:

This is my take on the stuff actually in the game, considing that their in game advertisments fetishise cis bodies, if anything, more extensively. But it looks pretty clear to me based on all that that CDPR have issues with transphobia at the communications level. Like, what the hell is going on with their twitter account? There's no justification for that.

yeah, definitely unacceptable. I'm glad the guy got fired but it sure didn't help that it was ever a thing.

the OP of that post makes the argument that the challenging media loses legitimacy because it's used devoid of that context as branding for the game itself. that takes misses the forest for the trees-- that's capitalism, baby. the marketing is doing the "wow, cool future" and ironically using the bad ad as a real ad, which is bad.

# ? Oct 20, 2020 22:18

Chalks: Sep 30, 2009

CYBEReris posted:

maybe it's misguided but I have faith that on SA even if a handful of people are reactionary assholes in defense of a video game they want to play a mature discussion can be had over these issues despite them, idk I'd post it

There's a situation here where the tweets of a few individuals are being grouped with the depictions of trans people in game and used to say "this entire company is transphobic". I don't think that's really fair. There are lots of poorly informed people out there who don't fully understand these issues (no doubt including myself) but tweets like these speak of poor sensitivity training among marketing interns charged with running twitter accounts rather than some systemic issue in CDPR in particular.

Specifically about the depictions in game, I'm not sure it's reactionary to disagree that it's transphobic. My personal opinion on the content itself isn't terribly relevant, but in the past when this discussion has been had here there were trans people who disliked the depictions and trans people who liked it. I think that if something is universally condemned by a group it's a bad thing, and it's unlikely that anything will be universally praised - so if something is both liked and disliked by different representatives of the same group, then it's probably in an OK place.

I don't want to offend anyone or make anyone's opinions on these depictions seem invalid, the opinions of a trans person on this topic is far more relevant than my own, but hopefully this is OK to discuss.

One thing that constantly strikes me when this topic is discussed is that CDPR could have chosen to do what every other game does and avoided including any obviously trans characters in the game. My personal opinion is that this would be extremely unfortunate since it seems so obvious that they should be included in a setting like this, but I'm wondering if some people are saying they would have preferred this to seeing these sorts of depictions?

# ? Oct 20, 2020 22:20

Happy Hedonist: Jan 18, 2009

I was bored and ordered a bunch of the TRPG books. I have no intention of playing it but they are fun to thumb through. The art and layout are perfect. It�s been a long time since I�ve looked at an 80s era RPG sourcebook.

# ? Oct 20, 2020 22:20

dragonshardz: May 2, 2017

CottonWolf posted:

This is my take on the stuff actually in the game, considing that their in game advertisments fetishise cis bodies, if anything, more extensively. But it looks pretty clear to me based on all that that CDPR have issues with transphobia at the communications level. Like, what the hell is going on with their twitter account? There's no justification for that.

It's two separate issues, yeah. Whoever they have doing their social media outreach needs to be whacked with a clue-by-four a few times.

The game itself presents an environment where everyone and everything is fetishized or otherwise exploited for money. One of the major themes in cyberpunk media is ow short-sighted, cynical exploitation of EVERYTHING is, y'know, bad.

E: For the sake of honesty in this discussion, I am trans. I see why people would be upset, either for themselves or on others' behalf, for the instances of negative representation in the game itself - which we've, so far, only seen in isolation.

Death of the author comes in here. It is, I think, unfair to the work to conflate the depictions of minorities in the work with the missteps of the corporate shills shilling said work.

dragonshardz fucked around with this message at 22:28 on Oct 20, 2020

# ? Oct 20, 2020 22:24

CottonWolf: Jul 20, 2012; Good ideas generator

grieving for Gandalf posted:

yeah, definitely unacceptable. I'm glad the guy got fired but it sure didn't help that it was ever a thing.

the OP of that post makes the argument that the challenging media loses legitimacy because it's used devoid of that context as branding for the game itself. that takes misses the forest for the trees-- that's capitalism, baby. the marketing is doing the "wow, cool future" and ironically using the bad ad as a real ad, which is bad.

It does raise the question to whether different parts of the company understand the product they're making in the same way. It could easily be that the creatives understand the inherent criticisms of the genre, while most of the rest of it are genuinely treating it as wow cool future. Especially given the political climate that it's being made in. I agree with the linked OP that you can't fully separate it from the political context in Poland at the moment. You can't avoid interpreting the narrative around it through that lens, and a good number of the CDPR employees are probably on the wrong side of the political moment there. It would be more surprising if they weren't.

CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 22:28 on Oct 20, 2020

# ? Oct 20, 2020 22:25

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

CottonWolf posted:

It does raise the question to whether different parts of the company understand the product they're making in the same way. It could easily be that the creatives understand the inherent criticisms of the genre, while most of the rest of it is pure wow cool future. Especially given the political climate that it's being made in.

The fundamental rule for understanding any corporation is that nobody neither knows nor cares what anybody else does or why they do it.

Anyway, I'm playing the game the creatives made, not the marketing materials some unrelated drones churned out.

# ? Oct 20, 2020 22:26

Bust Rodd: Oct 21, 2008; by VideoGames

CottonWolf posted:

It does raise the question to whether different parts of the company understand the product they're making in the same way. It could easily be that the creatives understand the inherent criticisms of the genre, while most of the rest of it are genuinely treating it as wow cool future. Especially given the political climate that it's being made in.

Statistically a number of trans people are already employed by CDPR and working on the game.

# ? Oct 20, 2020 22:28

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

Personally I'm a bit torn about the controversy. On one hand it is clear that there are some issues with CDProjekt in handling LGBTQ issues, and no matter how you look at it some things need to be addressed. But on the other hand places like ResetEra are known for exaggerating things a bit, so I am not sure if they are the best barometer of how the LGBTQ community feels about the events.

A good example is how in that very thread there are people complaining about the game's portrayal of Latinos as most of the criminal underworld seen in the game is compromised of non-white people.

Except that:

The game takes place in Northern California which is only 1/3rd non-Hispanic White
It was only just a single game segment that they seem to be referring to
A reality is that, like most other Americans, many Latinos like feeling like the badass rebel involved in the criminal underworld. You don't play a Cyberpunk game to be a law abiding citizen. It arguably goes against the entire genre.

But to also be fair there were some things I saw that I didn't like about the game's portrayal of Latinos. Such as the dialogue including random Spanish words and in general some questionably bad accents.

CYBEReris posted:

I'll transcribe (heh) it here, sectioned off into different quotes, it's on the long side but not unreadably so so I decided to only do bare minimum cuts to maintain as much context as possible:

You are amazing! Thank you!

# ? Oct 20, 2020 22:29

Zaphod42: Sep 13, 2012; If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.

Chalks posted:

One thing that constantly strikes me when this topic is discussed is that CDPR could have chosen to do what every other game does and avoided including any obviously trans characters in the game. My personal opinion is that this would be extremely unfortunate since it seems so obvious that they should be included in a setting like this, but I'm wondering if some people are saying they would have preferred this to seeing these sorts of depictions?

I get what you're going for here and its kinda fair, but at the same time, this is a false dichotomy. "Would you rather have no representation at all, rather than bad representation?!?" is a pretty bad take, and I don't think you were really pushing it like that, but just saying, careful you don't stray into that.

Its a pretty common problem that businesses create really cliched or stereotypical pandering token characters and then if you criticize, go, "well, we tried! next time we won't! That's what you get!"

We can also simultaneously recognize "CDPR is probably not totally evil" and "CDPR could do better"

These are complicated issues, what one person sees as positive representation another person could see as a gross caricature. So we just gotta respect and consider different takes, its part of art. And through that hopefully the game industry and our culture as a whole will grow.

# ? Oct 20, 2020 22:30

CottonWolf: Jul 20, 2012; Good ideas generator

Bust Rodd posted:

Statistically a number of trans people are already employed by CDPR and working on the game.

Absolutely. That just futher illustrates the "left hand"-"right hand" issue I was trying to think about.

# ? Oct 20, 2020 22:31

grieving for Gandalf: Apr 22, 2008

I think a distinction has to be made with any product that the advertising for it is going to be made with the most cynical of perspectives, to use assets from the product to make it look appealing.

this thread's talked about how the commercials that have been cut for CP2077 make it look like a different game, like it's a Blade Runner-style GTA or something. you've got to look at this other poo poo with the same lens

# ? Oct 20, 2020 22:31

Catgirl Al Capone: Dec 15, 2007

Chalks posted:

There's a situation here where the tweets of a few individuals are being grouped with the depictions of trans people in game and used to say "this entire company is transphobic". I don't think that's really fair. There are lots of poorly informed people out there who don't fully understand these issues (no doubt including myself) but tweets like these speak of poor sensitivity training among marketing interns charged with running twitter accounts rather than some systemic issue in CDPR in particular.

Specifically about the depictions in game, I'm not sure it's reactionary to disagree that it's transphobic. My personal opinion on the content itself isn't terribly relevant, but in the past when this discussion has been had here there were trans people who disliked the depictions and trans people who liked it. I think that if something is universally condemned by a group it's a bad thing, and it's unlikely that anything will be universally praised - so if something is both liked and disliked by different representatives of the same group, then it's probably in an OK place.

I don't want to offend anyone or make anyone's opinions on these depictions seem invalid, the opinions of a trans person on this topic is far more relevant than my own, but hopefully this is OK to discuss.

One thing that constantly strikes me when this topic is discussed is that CDPR could have chosen to do what every other game does and avoided including any obviously trans characters in the game. My personal opinion is that this would be extremely unfortunate since it seems so obvious that they should be included in a setting like this, but I'm wondering if some people are saying they would have preferred this to seeing these sorts of depictions?

Depiction is not endorsement, but depiction of something this harmful, that is a boiling hot issue, without a strong message constitutes exploitation. We'll have to see whether the game will deliver on that.

# ? Oct 20, 2020 22:32

Jimbot: Jul 22, 2008

If you want a good parallel, just look at Bioshock Infinite. It uses white supremacy and xenophobia as window dressing without a strong stance against it. So the end result is "well gee, these BIPOC second-class citizens and their working class white allies are just as bad as the white supremacist capitalists because... they rose up against their oppressors with violence?"

It's this centrist horseshit that anyone can look at and come away that it's a horrible message and that whole aspect was written extremely poorly. Except in CDProjekt's case they've shown their rear end long before the game came out, so folks aren't exactly giving them the benefit of the doubt. On top of labor issues, they're making a game in a whole genre in which depicts all this horrible poo poo to an almost comedic extreme degree and they're expecting certain groups to take them at their word that they'd handle it with nuance and care.

# ? Oct 20, 2020 22:45

Bust Rodd: Oct 21, 2008; by VideoGames

What�s funny is that Bioshock 1 had an extremely strong moral stance against libertarianism and randism and it was fully beloved in part due to that. It�s so weird that they would make such a racist video game and then double down on the minority slaves being bad guys. That game sucked so badly.

# ? Oct 20, 2020 22:47

Chalks: Sep 30, 2009

Zaphod42 posted:

I get what you're going for here and its kinda fair, but at the same time, this is a false dichotomy. "Would you rather have no representation at all, rather than bad representation?!?" is a pretty bad take, and I don't think you were really pushing it like that, but just saying, careful you don't stray into that.

Its a pretty common problem that businesses create really cliched or stereotypical pandering token characters and then if you criticize, go, "well, we tried! next time we won't! That's what you get!"

We can also simultaneously recognize "CDPR is probably not totally evil" and "CDPR could do better"

These are complicated issues, what one person sees as positive representation another person could see as a gross caricature. So we just gotta respect and consider different takes, its part of art. And through that hopefully the game industry and our culture as a whole will grow.

Yeah, I'm certainly not saying that they should only get to choose between a bad depiction or no depiction, but I would say that to have a coherent cyberpunk world, you have to have trans people completely accepted and normalised.

I don't think it would make sense if trans people were everywhere, but when ever you saw a prostitute or sexy poster, the person being depicted could never be trans. It would be really strange, and also probably offensive to the trans people who are comfortable with these depictions.

That's my opinion anyway. What I'm asking with my question is, even if what I say above would be true in a real cyberpunk world, is fetishisation just too close to home for some people in 2020's reality that they would prefer it wasn't depicted in this way at all?

I feel like a world where CDPR hand wave away the issue by saying "trans people are so normalised that nobody gives it a second thought" but don't allow them to be depicted in the same sexualised way as everyone else would be flawed and practically indistinguishable from zero representation.

# ? Oct 20, 2020 23:02

Au Revoir Shosanna: Feb 17, 2011; i support this government and/or service

Chalks posted:

What I'm asking with my question is, even if what I say above would be true in a real cyberpunk world, is fetishisation just too close to home for some people in 2020's reality that they would prefer it wasn't depicted in this way at all?

For some people that is clearly the case, and it is a valid criticism that CDPR have summarily ignored, which I think for many is becoming the real problem.

# ? Oct 20, 2020 23:08

Catgirl Al Capone: Dec 15, 2007

Chalks posted:

Yeah, I'm certainly not saying that they should only get to choose between a bad depiction or no depiction, but I would say that to have a coherent cyberpunk world, you have to have trans people completely accepted and normalised.

I don't think it would make sense if trans people were everywhere, but when ever you saw a prostitute or sexy poster, the person being depicted could never be trans. It would be really strange, and also probably offensive to the trans people who are comfortable with these depictions.

That's my opinion anyway. What I'm asking with my question is, even if what I say above would be true in a real cyberpunk world, is fetishisation just too close to home for some people in 2020's reality that they would prefer it wasn't depicted in this way at all?

I feel like a world where CDPR hand wave away the issue by saying "trans people are so normalised that nobody gives it a second thought" but don't allow them to be depicted in the same sexualised way as everyone else would be flawed and practically indistinguishable from zero representation.

Has anyone else been subjected to the level of exploitation that trans women have that we know about? I have only seen trans womens' genitals in marketing so far, aside from characters in-world being neutrally naked. I guess what I'm questioning is, is the exploitation really level? It seems like what we've seen so far has been very disproportionate. Remember that in addition to the Chromanticore poster there is also this:

:nws:

# ? Oct 20, 2020 23:09

Dapper_Swindler: Feb 14, 2012; Im glad my instant dislike in you has been validated again and again.

Jimbot posted:

If you want a good parallel, just look at Bioshock Infinite. It uses white supremacy and xenophobia as window dressing without a strong stance against it. So the end result is "well gee, these BIPOC second-class citizens and their working class white allies are just as bad as the white supremacist capitalists because... they rose up against their oppressors with violence?"

It's this centrist horseshit that anyone can look at and come away that it's a horrible message and that whole aspect was written extremely poorly. Except in CDProjekt's case they've shown their rear end long before the game came out, so folks aren't exactly giving them the benefit of the doubt. On top of labor issues, they're making a game in a whole genre in which depicts all this horrible poo poo to an almost comedic extreme degree and they're expecting certain groups to take them at their word that they'd handle it with nuance and care.

i think the most depressing part of it was original version of the story was way more idk nuanced. like the founders were supposed to be a party that took over columbia like 5 years into the voyagae with comstock being their president/god emperor. and the Finkton stuff was supposed to be much bigger and poo poo. it was less "lol black slaves" and more Pullman strike but way way bigger with fitzroy being an irish woman and poo poo. but than ken decided to rewrite the game 20 times and well yeah.

CYBEReris posted:

I'll transcribe (heh) it here, sectioned off into different quotes, it's on the long side but not unreadably so so I decided to only do bare minimum cuts to maintain as much context as possible:

overall i think it makes good points but some of it goes a little "obviously CDPR knows about how much this hurts us and its on purpose" stuff. like i didnt even know about T/nb voice training/etc until i read about it because of the one article that gets linked that got mad because of the voice stuff, which i still dont think is fully true because i am pretty sure they have said earlier they have "they" options set up if you use differing body/voice/etc stuff. I do think CDPR is tonedeaf and needed to fire shitheads way sooner and hire actual experts and have better explanations. that being said, i dont think they are doing massive outreach to chuds because the chuds now think the game is "degeneracy" because you can play as a trans V. plus chuds are not good being coy with their hatred. like look at the GOG chud who was fired. he wasnt "clever" with his bigotry.

# ? Oct 20, 2020 23:11

Bloody Hedgehog: Dec 12, 2003; 💥💥🤯💥💥
Gotta nuke something

Slumpy posted:

imagine if this game loving blows

My worst fear at this point is the game comes out and is great, but all the reviews are ".... but you can beat it in like 7 hours, even if you take your time".

I'm sure it's not the case, but I literally had a nightmare about it the other night.

# ? Oct 20, 2020 23:33

Chalks: Sep 30, 2009

CYBEReris posted:

Has anyone else been subjected to the level of exploitation that trans women have that we know about? I have only seen trans womens' genitals in marketing so far, aside from characters in-world being neutrally naked. I guess what I'm questioning is, is the exploitation really level? It seems like what we've seen so far has been very disproportionate. Remember that in addition to the Chromanticore poster there is also this:

That image you posted there is actually particularly offensive and I'd not seen it before.

I think the Chromanticore poster is fairly in line with other depictions that we've seen of non obviously trans individuals but I think that Watson Whore advert is taking things way too far. It would be inappropriate to use regardless of who's being portrayed and the fact that they've been made obviously trans does raise some serious questions.

I now see that this image is in the quotes that you posted earlier too and I didn't notice it when I replied, so I apologise for that. I think the idea that there are trans people out there who appreciate that depiction is clearly absurd, so my entire argument that their depictions are "probably ok" is mistaken.

Chalks fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Oct 20, 2020

# ? Oct 20, 2020 23:33

dragonshardz: May 2, 2017

Chalks posted:

Yeah, I'm certainly not saying that they should only get to choose between a bad depiction or no depiction, but I would say that to have a coherent cyberpunk world, you have to have trans people completely accepted and normalised.

I don't think it would make sense if trans people were everywhere, but when ever you saw a prostitute or sexy poster, the person being depicted could never be trans. It would be really strange, and also probably offensive to the trans people who are comfortable with these depictions.

That's my opinion anyway. What I'm asking with my question is, even if what I say above would be true in a real cyberpunk world, is fetishisation just too close to home for some people in 2020's reality that they would prefer it wasn't depicted in this way at all?

I feel like a world where CDPR hand wave away the issue by saying "trans people are so normalised that nobody gives it a second thought" but don't allow them to be depicted in the same sexualised way as everyone else would be flawed and practically indistinguishable from zero representation.

"Trans people exist but aren't shown in advertising much" isn't quite the same thing as "trans people don't exist". One is closer to the reality of 2020 that we base our interpretation of 2077 upon, and may - for some people - be easier to handle than "trans people exist and are exploited as ruthlessly as everyone else".

Whether or not you're comfortable with this depiction of a future culture is ultimately pretty personal.

# ? Oct 20, 2020 23:37

The Gadfly: Sep 23, 2012

I thought Cyberpunk is supposed to be a dystopia? If it were a transphilic utopia with people flocking there due to it's non-explotative society and trans rights, then it would not be the setting that is trying to be portrayed?

# ? Oct 20, 2020 23:37

Catgirl Al Capone: Dec 15, 2007

Dapper_Swindler posted:

overall i think it makes good points but some of it goes a little "obviously CDPR knows about how much this hurts us and its on purpose" stuff. like i didnt even know about T/nb voice training/etc until i read about it because of the one article that gets linked that got mad because of the voice stuff, which i still dont think is fully true because i am pretty sure they have said earlier they have "they" options set up if you use differing body/voice/etc stuff. I do think CDPR is tonedeaf and needed to fire shitheads way sooner and hire actual experts and have better explanations. that being said, i dont think they are doing massive outreach to chuds because the chuds now think the game is "degeneracy" because you can play as a trans V. plus chuds are not good being coy with their hatred. like look at the GOG chud who was fired. he wasnt "clever" with his bigotry.

I think that what makes a lot of us wary, especially those who like the genre, is that in classic cyberpunk it was very common for trans women to be described and depicted as emblematic of the degradation of society, as degenerate and perverse sex workers. So when we see this sort of exploitation up front what we think is "Ah poo poo, here we go again".

# ? Oct 20, 2020 23:40

DeadFatDuckFat: Oct 29, 2012; This avatar brought to you by the 'save our dead gay forums' foundation.

Isn't it the point that corps will exploit anything and everyone in order for profit? Like, Watson Whore just seems like a cyberpunk version of trashy tlc/reality shows where the viewers gawk and laugh at the people on the screen, but even more obvious in its hatred of poor people. Watson is a slum district of Night City, right?

Edit: basically what Gadfly said

# ? Oct 20, 2020 23:43

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

CYBEReris posted:

I think that what makes a lot of us wary, especially those who like the genre, is that in classic cyberpunk it was very common for trans women to be described and depicted as emblematic of the degradation of society, as degenerate and perverse sex workers. So when we see this sort of exploitation up front what we think is "Ah poo poo, here we go again".

the drink ad wasn't that though, it was presenting it as a cool and awesome thing that would make you buy #PRODUCT?

# ? Oct 20, 2020 23:43

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# ? May 1, 2024 11:14

Catgirl Al Capone: Dec 15, 2007

sebmojo posted:

the drink ad wasn't that though, it was presenting it as a cool and awesome thing that would make you buy #PRODUCT?

I'm talking more about the Watson Whore thing than the Chromanticore thing there

# ? Oct 20, 2020 23:46

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