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But when most of the Z Fighters and villains do the super fast stalemate fighting that saves time on animation, isn't that mostly consisting of dodging super fast?
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Oct 21, 2020 06:24
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this chapter was sick and I can't wait for goku and vegeta to go on an adventure inside moro to retrieve the magic lamp like in the hit movie aladdin potential hilarious outcome for vegeta's whole training/fission thing is it's never mentioned ever again
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Oct 21, 2020 07:07
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Hit or miss Clitoris posted:There have been vague hints for a long time now that the main angel dude is a total dick and may be the pen/ultimate villain of the series. It would make sense because the angels use UI themselves and Goku is still new to it, after all. Yeah, I wouldn't be shocked if the next major arc involves setting up a celestial threat that requires the GoDs to actually do something for once. I liked the chapter by itself, although like almost everyone here it came a bit too late for my taste
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Oct 21, 2020 10:25
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grieving for Gandalf posted:I don't like god ki or Ultra Instinct because they're so ill-defined.
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Oct 21, 2020 12:47
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I'm imagining Vegata needing to hit the planet hard enough to fission Moro, but not hard enough to destroy the planet.
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Oct 21, 2020 12:54
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Bisse posted:This bothers me to no end as well. UI was loving excellent and unique as just entering the mind's Zen and reacting on instinct. Then suddenly he's shooting ki blasts behind his back and doing.... psychic holds? Yeah sure, i guess. The psychic hold is the same trick he used to try and simmer down Broly in the movie, it's just a new technique he generally has access to And UI has always been a massive raw power boost, Goku goes from getting square hits on Jiren that don't even making him flinch to completely decking him in the ToP. There's no overt exposition but we see Goku powering up to MUI by reabsorbing all the power he'd radiated throughout the fight so I figured it's like an angel-tier Kaoiken type thing as well as a mental state, which would line up with Moro's body going out of control trying to use it as well
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Oct 21, 2020 13:09
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I don't know if I'd call it Kaioken, since Whis commented that Goku using the Kaioken (or something similar) wasn't the right way in the ToP, as I recall. Maybe it's more like an RPG mechanic where all of your attacks are critical hits?
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Oct 21, 2020 13:50
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Blueberry Pancakes posted:I don't know if I'd call it Kaioken, since Whis commented that Goku using the Kaioken (or something similar) wasn't the right way in the ToP, as I recall. Maybe it's more like an RPG mechanic where all of your attacks are critical hits? This is how I always interpreted it, especially when Goku ran into trouble with his attacks being weaksauce when he was only capable of Omen. In Omen he was punching Jiren and Kefla a zillion times and accomplishing gently caress all nothing because Omen was basically just "base form Goku power plus super dodging". When he got Real rear end UI going he started completely wrecking Jiren, so I always just assumed he gained the ability to hit the opponent precisely where it hurts the most at precisely the correct moment unconsciously.
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Oct 21, 2020 14:05
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Kanos posted:This is how I always interpreted it, especially when Goku ran into trouble with his attacks being weaksauce when he was only capable of Omen. In Omen he was punching Jiren and Kefla a zillion times and accomplishing gently caress all nothing because Omen was basically just "base form Goku power plus super dodging". When he got Real rear end UI going he started completely wrecking Jiren, so I always just assumed he gained the ability to hit the opponent precisely where it hurts the most at precisely the correct moment unconsciously. This is my interpretation as well. It’s why people like the Turtle Hermit are able to punch waaaay above their weight class. Skill/experience/precision.
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Oct 21, 2020 14:15
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Kild posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1qvRygA1zc the first use of ultra instinct Someone with video editing skills should put the UI theme on this
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Oct 21, 2020 14:37
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Pyrus Malus posted:this chapter was sick and I can't wait for goku and vegeta to go on an adventure inside moro to retrieve the magic lamp like in the hit movie aladdin His training is kind of to specific to matter. This actually parallels Tien learning the evil containment wave in DB.
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Oct 21, 2020 16:38
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Actually might be interesting given Vegeta's general lack of sophistication and specialisation, and that he only learns specialist techniques like the Fusion Dance under extreme duress, while Goku will jump at the chance to learn some wacky technique even if he never uses it again.
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Oct 21, 2020 17:08
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If Tien used the Mafuba nowadays I bet he'd still die.
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Oct 21, 2020 17:10
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I'm kind of curious how Forced Spirit Fission will be used going forward. The group seems to run into enough bad guys that like using assimilation and the like that I don't think it'll be completely useless, but it's certainly less exploitable than Instant Transmission by virtue of being a combat technique rather than a technique that can also be used for combat.
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Oct 21, 2020 18:13
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vegeta will use spirit fission to become immune to energy blasts in general (this will not happen)
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Oct 21, 2020 18:14
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Blueberry Pancakes posted:I'm kind of curious how Forced Spirit Fission will be used going forward. The group seems to run into enough bad guys that like using assimilation and the like that I don't think it'll be completely useless, but it's certainly less exploitable than Instant Transmission by virtue of being a combat technique rather than a technique that can also be used for combat. Vegeta probably wouldn't even use it half the time unless his opponent has really worn out their welcome Also:  
Ghost Leviathan fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Oct 21, 2020 |
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Oct 21, 2020 18:18
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Blueberry Pancakes posted:I'm kind of curious how Forced Spirit Fission will be used going forward. The group seems to run into enough bad guys that like using assimilation and the like that I don't think it'll be completely useless, but it's certainly less exploitable than Instant Transmission by virtue of being a combat technique rather than a technique that can also be used for combat. In a series with a more intelligent cast, it'd be a super powerful move. After all, going through every big enemy they've ever fought... -Cell: Fused with two Androids and drained the energy of several people. Without those, he's weaker than Piccolo (post-fusing with Kami). -Buu: Absorbed several people. Separation here can be a much bigger risk though, since it'd just turn him into his Pure form that's the final boss of his saga for a reason. -Zamasu/Black: Fuse together. Separating them would mean they can't become Infinite Zamasu, thus avoiding Zeno having to end the entire timeline. Unclear if it could also separate Black as Zamasu having taken over his body, his Ki seems mixed enough that it may be possible to at least depower Black. -Moro: Obvious and pointed out by the saga itself. Okay, it's only four final bosses, less than I expected, but nonetheless that would've made those fights significantly easier and could be greatly useful in the future for enemies like them. If you want to count GT, it would be useful on literally all three final bosses: -Baby: Fused with Vegeta as well as taking over several other people. Of course, Vegeta being part of Baby Vegeta is an issue. Baby alone is nowhere near enough to face a Super Saiyan 4. -Super 17: Is the fusion of both 17s, one of which is not evil, the other of which is not powerful enough to matter without said fusion. -One-Star: The Dragon Balls he absorbed could be separated from him, leaving him in his weaker normal form rather than his far stronger Shin form.
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Oct 21, 2020 18:40
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Though I realise he could use it to slap Gotenks apart when he's getting too rowdy
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Oct 21, 2020 18:46
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Though I realise he could use it to slap Gotenks apart when he's getting too rowdy His secret primary reason for learning the technique.
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Oct 21, 2020 19:12
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Blaze Dragon posted:-Cell: Fused with two Androids and drained the energy of several people. Without those, he's weaker than Piccolo (post-fusing with Kami).
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Oct 21, 2020 19:14
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grieving for Gandalf posted:I don't like god ki or Ultra Instinct because they're so ill-defined. The anime dub actually covers for this pretty well. Because Goku is acting entirely on instinct he's able to draw upon wells of power he has within him just as instinctively. So the answer is he's always been that strong but his mind has stopped him from becoming as strong as he could be. But yeah, broadly I agree. I also think that UI would be conceptually interesting if a fighter that's as nearly fast as you could paint you into a tactical corner for example.
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Oct 21, 2020 19:19
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Stairmaster posted:also battle of gods literally ends with goku using ultra instinct to destroy beerus's big supernova death ball I always figured that was hinting at blue, given there's a bunch of blue energy going into him before he pops the ball.
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Oct 21, 2020 23:41
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Natural 20 posted:The anime dub actually covers for this pretty well. Ultra Instinct is basically perfect-play-AI in a fighting game. (and iirc, FighterZ UI Goku is literally built to be that) Not technically breaking the rules, but making absolutely perfect use of every single resource his body has. (which is why it's so dangerous to lose focus even for a second)
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Oct 22, 2020 05:16
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Blueberry Pancakes posted:I'm kind of curious how Forced Spirit Fission will be used going forward. The group seems to run into enough bad guys that like using assimilation and the like that I don't think it'll be completely useless, but it's certainly less exploitable than Instant Transmission by virtue of being a combat technique rather than a technique that can also be used for combat. I think going forward, you probably won't see too many many main baddies using assimilation/fusion techniques with Vegeta around without some sort of caveat. You'll probably see some minor ones try it and Vegeta will get to go "Oh, you done hosed up now"
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Oct 22, 2020 10:31
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I think they'll probably just forget about it or have some excuse it won't work. We've had a whole arc of a villain with call backs to previous ones so I can't imagine anyone important really going "okay, no more bad guys who fuse with stuff". What would be next, bad guys not transforming?
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Oct 22, 2020 21:42
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Justin_Brett posted:I think they'll probably just forget about it or have some excuse it won't work. We've had a whole arc of a villain with call backs to previous ones so I can't imagine anyone important really going "okay, no more bad guys who fuse with stuff". What would be next, bad guys not transforming?  A shameful lack of imagination in the people who carn't see the next villain smirking as he no-sells Vegeta's spirit fission, before crumpling him in one blow and leaving him in the Yamcha pose
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Oct 22, 2020 21:57
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I mean remember when Goku just stopped using the KK for like twenty years. They didn’t even bother with the hand wave until like super
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Oct 22, 2020 22:00
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To be fair, Super Saiyan was apparently a x50 multiplier without any of the risk of destroying his body. Speaking of which, Goku only really destroyed his body with the Kaioken once (and once more in Super), huh? I guess he kinda fiddled with that on the ship ride to Namek, but it never really wound up being as much of a detriment as you might expect.
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Oct 22, 2020 22:28
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CharlestheHammer posted:I mean remember when Goku just stopped using the KK for like twenty years. The explanation actually came from the Otherworld Tournament filler IIRC, with Super adapting both the adaptation and the idea of using Super Saiyan and Kaio-ken together. Of course, how much filler counts...it doesn't, but it's not something Super pulled out of nowhere, and the idea might've been from Toriyama in the first place since he contributed to the arc (though likely only through character designs) Blueberry Pancakes posted:To be fair, Super Saiyan was apparently a x50 multiplier without any of the risk of destroying his body. Because Goku is intelligent in how he uses Kaio-ken. In his fight against Jeice and Burter, it's pointed out that, after his training under heavy gravity, he can activate Kaio-ken (up to x10) in very short bursts when he attacks or is attacked, thus minimizing the risk of destroying his own body while getting the power when he needs it. It's not that it became less risky, just that Goku realized how to use it best and mastered the timing to do so. And even there it's limited, he had to fully activate Kaio-ken (red aura and all) to go x20, which even he knew was a gigantic risk, to fight Freeza, could only hold it for a single Kamehameha, and it wasn't even effective. During Super, Goku is shown to really, really not want to use Kaio-ken Blue after his first experience with it. Despite the sheer danger of Fusion Zamasu, Goku only breaks it out to escape from his hold, when he definitely needed the power boost - the cons were too strong to use it as much as he would've otherwise. By the Tournament of Power, he's mastered it so he can use it with no risk and even as high as x20, but by that time Goku's (completely off-screen) training paid off. It's kind of the constant with Goku. He's an expert at finding how to use techniques in the most effective way, maximizing their strengths and minimizing their weaknesses, but it always comes after properly training in them (Super Saiyan Full Power comes to mind as Goku's methods showing their effectiveness, versus Vegeta who only pursued power with Grade 2 without thinking about the higher Ki drain, nevermind Trunks' completely useless Grade 3 form, and found something significantly more useful despite not being a proper boost in power in and of itself).
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Oct 22, 2020 22:37
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Goku excels more than anything in learning and improving techniques. From the very beginning he was shown to learn new things insanely quickly and then just as quickly improve on them. It's basically his big gift. (As well as Caulifla's from what it seems.) He has little in the way of original moves but that is because every move he pulls out is something he's put his own spin on in some fashion or another or combined in unusual ways. And that is on top of the fact that Saiyans are shown to learn things insanely quickly.
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Oct 22, 2020 23:07
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I like to think of SSJ grade 3 working better as an artillery form. You give up your mobility for a bit more endurance, and a LOT more power. Instead of putting the power in your punches you could just use it to empower your beams.
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Oct 22, 2020 23:26
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The problem is power ups just devolve into well power ups eventually. Like UI was supposed to be basically you being more efficient made you stronger and faster. Then this arc someone punched Goku and it breaks his hand completely invalidating it
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Oct 22, 2020 23:30
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Siegkrow posted:I like to think of SSJ grade 3 working better as an artillery form. You give up your mobility for a bit more endurance, and a LOT more power. Instead of putting the power in your punches you could just use it to empower your beams. The main issue with that is that Grade 3 is not only just slower, it also consumes Ki faster. Even if you used it for that, it wouldn't last long. Goku's Full Power form is significantly more useful in every way, even without being a power boost from the basic Super Saiyan, it lowers Ki consumption to effectively zero, allowing Goku and Gohan (and presumably Vegeta and Trunks since they don't use their buff forms in the manga during the Cell Games) to put all of that Ki to use exactly when it is needed. Also fights in Dragon Ball are in constant movement, staying in one place shooting has never been effective (without help, anyways, like the Full Nelson Special Beam Cannon). CharlestheHammer posted:The problem is power ups just devolve into well power ups eventually. Because Goku's body hardened up at the point of impact. It still is how UI was said to work.
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Oct 22, 2020 23:40
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multijoe posted:
Next villain? Vegeta lost to this villain after he smirkingly no-sold spirit fission. Isn't a lack of vision so much as object permanence.
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Oct 23, 2020 01:04
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Vegeta is the most tenacious punching bag in shonen manga and I doubt that his role will change anytime soon.
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Oct 23, 2020 01:18
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I have to imagine vegeta and trunks didn't master full power super saiyan because there's implied to be such a gap between them and Goku. Arguably fpssj trunks would have been stronger than Goku.
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Oct 23, 2020 04:25
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I wonder if Full Power Super Saiyan God/Blue will be things or if Toriyama kinda sidestepped that whole system. Then again, Trunks seemed to have a version of that for Super Saiyan 2. Regarding Vegeta failing to master Super Saiyan the same way, I think the reason he's always second fiddle to Goku is because his way of fighting is basically just taking advantage of having the bigger number since he's more brute force than technical fighter. It's probably why his idea for improving Super Saiyan was "bigger muscles" instead of "energy efficiency".
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Oct 23, 2020 05:19
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Blueberry Pancakes posted:I wonder if Full Power Super Saiyan God/Blue will be things or if Toriyama kinda sidestepped that whole system. Then again, Trunks seemed to have a version of that for Super Saiyan 2. The manga had Blue evolved, or mastered or whatever during the zamasu stuff. In the manga blue is actually a fairly big energy hog, particularly when first turned on. Vegeta gets past that by fighting in regular red, then cycling up for an instant like kaio Ken. Then goku just perfects it. Because goku.
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Oct 23, 2020 05:34
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Blaze Dragon posted:
"Goku, how did you-" "I've got an exoskelington now, because I'm an ULTRA INSECT."
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Oct 23, 2020 22:08
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| # ? Apr 28, 2024 19:12 |
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oh, he absorbed an android 
Lamebot fucked around with this message at 14:58 on Oct 25, 2020 |
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Oct 25, 2020 14:53
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