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Cease to Hope posted:retail, a 2K point 40K army starts at ...people pay sticker price?
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Oct 22, 2020 05:57
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Tulip posted:...people pay sticker price? that is buying at an online-seller discount. the simplest 2K army that i can come up with is 36 quins, 6 transports, 12 bikes, hitting you right under $700 USD, assuming you're getting about 10% off GW's listed price. now, that's not an army i'd suggest to anyone starting out (because quins are complicated). but it is structurally similar to the army someone would build if they were only buying units that they were going to use every single model of, and units that were very efficient for points/dollars. it doesn't involve buying any of GW's silly overpriced standalone characters, or expensive and situational centerpieces like monsters or tanks. all of this is also assuming you're playing space marines or harlequins or custodes, and not, say, an army with lots of ornate, expensive, low-points units (mechanicus, chaos and custodes can be like this) or lots and lots and lots of guys (imperial guard, orks, tyranids) or lots of large vehicles/monsters (guard and tyranids again). this does not include buying any other units for variety's sake, paint and brushes and other crafting supplies, or anything to carry the army around in. all that is extra. $400 is buying a new compact, elite army from recasters, which means a crapshoot on quality and a super crapshoot on availability (moreso than the already bad availability of GW stuff in general). $200 is buying someone else's army they're bored with, or only bottomfeeding whatever's super unpopular and in a huge glut on ebay at the moment, and even then strikes me as wildly optimistic. even if you bought basic space marines from a recaster and used them as proxies for a 2K army, it'd be more than $200.
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Oct 22, 2020 07:57
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Cease to Hope posted:these are the ones most blatantly ripping off lieber fwiw I recently started up again, after fire -selling everything some years ago, and my total costs, in euros, so far are: 100 Euros for tools, glues, cutting Matt and a light/magnifier 50 for brushes, About 200 for paints, washes, inks, sprays, GW technical paints etc. ( May be more, because I love buying paints.) 170 for starter box set (still not arrived) and a codex. 60 for various minis from eBay I like, whilst I wait for my fracking box set. 100 for new minis minus a 25 euro "gift" from gw.+ 25 for a new one coming out next month. Soooo I make that 680 euros, or around 800 USD! Couple of points; I have lots of army painter paints, cheap, but ok and useable. Metallics, neons whatever I look elsewhere though. No miniatures are bootlegged, eBay is good right now to save. My points coat will be around 1500 I do believe, plus the box set has two 1000 points in it, so could say I have a 2500 point army.
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Oct 22, 2020 12:02
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Speaking of books, I finished Bloodlines by Chris Wraight recently and its definitely on my must recommend list. Alongside Carrion Throne (and to a lesser extent Hollow Mountain) by the same author.
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Oct 22, 2020 15:17
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I can't imagine getting a full size GW army these days without using ebay. Unless you want to convert historical models into Guard, but even then you'd need to source weapons and stuff.
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Oct 22, 2020 15:32
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:I can't imagine getting a full size GW army these days without using ebay. Unless you want to convert historical models into Guard, but even then you'd need to source weapons and stuff. At the very least I would eBay certain miniatures that are no longer in production. (Classic chaos raptors for example)
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Oct 22, 2020 15:56
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Nobody should be jumping into Warhammer by buying an entire 2000 point army, that’s lunacy. GW has multiple stand alone boxed sets at a variety of reasonable price points for people to get started with. Find a friend who is also miniatures-curious split the cost of a starter box and you’ll be in for around $50 each.
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Oct 22, 2020 16:12
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Kill Team and Underworlds are good intros too, and probably more fun than a full size game of 40k tbh.
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Oct 22, 2020 16:28
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:I can't imagine getting a full size GW army these days without using ebay. Unless you want to convert historical models into Guard, but even then you'd need to source weapons and stuff. I used to play but sold everything like 15 years ago, but the excitement around the 8th/9th edition had me considering getting back into it. I bounced *hard* when I realized that my options were either do some kind of hosed up internet scavenger hunt for recasts and used figures or drop something like 4 times what I originally bought minis for to get a basic army - and double that if I wanted to get a second one so my kid could play me. It's a shame because it sounds like they did some innovative stuff with the rules and the fluff is excellent, but the cost in time or $$ of getting a reasonable army is just too high for me.
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Oct 22, 2020 19:16
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Notahippie posted:I used to play but sold everything like 15 years ago, but the excitement around the 8th/9th edition had me considering getting back into it. I bounced *hard* when I realized that my options were either do some kind of hosed up internet scavenger hunt for recasts and used figures or drop something like 4 times what I originally bought minis for to get a basic army - and double that if I wanted to get a second one so my kid could play me. It's a shame because it sounds like they did some innovative stuff with the rules and the fluff is excellent, but the cost in time or $$ of getting a reasonable army is just too high for me. If you just wanna try out the rules use cardboard chits or lego pieces or something as standins
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Oct 22, 2020 19:47
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Kill Team might be getting a 2E as well?
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Oct 22, 2020 19:48
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Bucnasti posted:Nobody should be jumping into Warhammer by buying an entire 2000 point army, that’s lunacy. not saying they should either, but it's worth highlighting the yawning and expensive gulf between $50 buying exactly enough models to learn the rules in a basic way and multiple hundreds of dollars for just the models in an actual army. Tulip was claiming that 40K is a relatively cheap hobby and that's just foolishness. if you accrue models slowly over time (especially as a new player), you're also going to end up buying models you can't (or don't want to) use because the rules changed or because you didn't know better. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Oct 22, 2020 |
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Oct 22, 2020 21:20
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40k is a one time high cost investment. Once you have everything you might have to buy new rules every so often. Unlike say MTG where you have to buy entirely new decks Every year.
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Oct 22, 2020 22:07
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Cease to Hope posted:not saying they should either, but it's worth highlighting the yawning and expensive gulf between $50 buying exactly enough models to learn the rules in a basic way and multiple hundreds of dollars for just the models in an actual army. Tulip was claiming that 40K is a relatively cheap hobby and that's just foolishness. if you accrue models slowly over time (especially as a new player), you're also going to end up buying models you can't (or don't want to) use because the rules changed or because you didn't know better. I'll take an L on my claim about the specific price(I paid 250 for my Skaven army, but that was over a decade ago; my other army that actually got anywhere, Eldar, involved a bunch of donated/inherited models so was even less), but even like 700 is, in the scale of hobbies, not that expensive. I can name quite a few cheaper hobbies, but it's not expensive in the same way that like, home repair or cars can get. Unless you want to participate in the tournament scene like the Goonhammer guys, that...that will get very expensive.
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Oct 22, 2020 22:17
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Tulip posted:but even like 700 is, in the scale of hobbies, not that expensive. I can name quite a few cheaper hobbies, but it's not expensive in the same way that like, home repair or cars can get. It's also not including the cost of game rules (although  are an option now), crafting supplies or storage/transport, and assumes you're playing somewhere that you can access for free that already has terrain/gameboards.I think the fact that you're comparing it to fiddling with the two most expensive things most people own is illustrative!
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Oct 22, 2020 22:47
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What’s the 40k equivalent of 
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Oct 22, 2020 22:53
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:What’s the 40k equivalent of the golden throne it’s a mishmash of weird poo poo that nobody understands, it has wayyy too many electrical outlets, and the rear end in a top hat in charge self-certified his unpermitted work
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Oct 22, 2020 23:30
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Fly Molo posted:the golden throne it's built on top of a slow-motion natural disaster, it's loving terrible and so is everyone who cares about it but the offshoots are way worse
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Oct 22, 2020 23:49
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The golden throne is GWs big button to completely change up the cannon. Blow it up, who knows what can happen???
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Oct 23, 2020 08:18
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RickRogers posted:The golden throne is GWs big button to completely change up the cannon. new Space Marines (again)
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Oct 23, 2020 08:32
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Fly Molo posted:the golden throne Cease to Hope posted:it's built on top of a slow-motion natural disaster, it's loving terrible and so is everyone who cares about it but the offshoots are way worse oh poo poo i forgot: it was built by a sad rear end in a top hat pretending to be a soldier
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Oct 23, 2020 09:02
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Cease to Hope posted:oh poo poo i forgot: who gets really, really mad whenever people make fun of him, talks way too much but people are afraid to tell him to shut up, and has incredibly detailed prescience for a coming war (that just happens to be 100% wrong) it’s spot on.
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Oct 23, 2020 10:32
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*grover stares at angron’s hosed-up brain, frowning* “it’s fine. it’s probably fine. I’m not ripping it out and doing it again.”
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Oct 23, 2020 10:37
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Fly Molo posted:*grover stares at naming the primarchs Angry-One, Lionel Johnson, and Iron Hand*
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Oct 23, 2020 10:52
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:new Space Marines (again) Yeah.... 
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Oct 23, 2020 11:23
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Cease to Hope posted:It's also not including the cost of game rules (although Its the eternal nerd defense for hobby games stuff being so expensive. Its either WELL THESE HOBBIES INVOLVING MOTOR VEHICLES OR PROTECTIVE EQUIPMENT SO YOU DON'T DIE DOING IT ARE WORSE or.. WELL LOW PRINT SO THATS WHY THE RULE BOOKS ARE APPROACHING COLLEGE TEXTBOOK LEVELS OF PRICEGOUGING NONSENSE. NO IGNORE BLACK AND WHITE SOFTBACK BOOKS THAT USED TO EXIST. WE NEED TO SPEND 3X AS MUCH WITH SHORTER TIMES BETWEEN EDITIONS CUZ I CANT ENJOY MEATSPACE GAMES WITHOUT COFFEE TABLE STYLED RULESBOOKS. Its all a bunch of idiotic hooey because idiots need to both defend a for profit company and the idiotic amount of money they crap on it. Most people are too drat thin skinned to ever acknowledge CUZ I ENJOY IT EVEN IF ASPECTS OF IT ARE DUMB for silly reasons. Honestly when it comes down to it most Hobby Games stuff is a terrible fun to time dollar ratio. Especially now when editions more or less invalidate your stuff every 3-5 years especially if you do organized play stuff as opposed to just fun casual play with friends. (Most people seem to only want organized play. Especially tourney play which usually requires extra buy in. Or going to cons to play.. the same games your local store runs. People really can't find 40k, Magic, or In Print Edition DnD games? Unless you work weekends like my sorry rear end you can't avoid them! Now finding games of Paranoia or Squad Leader or Call of Cthulhu? Those are a right bastard.)
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Oct 24, 2020 00:45
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I love my thicccc rulebooks that are about 10% rules. I also spend way more on my other hobbies than gw stuff, so it all balances nicely in my broke brain
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Oct 24, 2020 01:33
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Hey this is my first time posting in sci-fi wifi. I’ve played GW games on and off for way too long now, since I was a kid (2nd ed), and even had a warhammer/gaming blog a few years ago when that was all the rage. Now I’m one of the “art project people” someone mentioned before. Part of me always kinda wants to play big proper games again, but as soon as I actually start to count the cost It’s exhausting just considering it. So much time, so much money. Anyway I just wanted to say, it’s super interesting seeing the way the Imperium has been presented change over the years. Of course it started ironic grim dark, very 2000AD in feel as has been pointed out many times before. I reckon it was around 2005(?) I started to notice a concerted effort to present the Imperium (and in particular the space marines) as the good noble defenders of humanity (“hard men making hard choices” as people itt have put it) but it could have been earlier. There was immediately a tension between the old irony and the new framing and it just grew and grew. Clearly GW thought that to get kids in they needed things to be simpler; good vs bad. Instead of continuing to aim the writing at punk/nerd young adults and grown men, they started really trying to aim it at kids and teenagers for taht sweet parent money, and they decided that meant the Imperium had to be good guys. Grimdark good guys, but still good guys. The irony was still there from the past a bit - but really it couldn’t be framed in both ways at once. All that was pretty obvious to see as it happened, but what I did not expect (and I never saw anyone else suggest this either) was that it might backfire and that mainstream society, the market GW wants to court I think, would start to say “well look, we’re not going to accept that. Either this is irony or it’s fascism. The Imperium can’t be the good guys AND be callous fascists, even if there’s a compelling in-universe apology for why that’s OK. We don’t accept that in a game for kids.” It’s amazing. I wonder what’s going to happen. Are they going to bring back the irony and go for something like the modern equivalent of their original audience? Or are they going to use the return of Guilliman to actually transform the Imperium into something that is still grim dark, but no longer a fascist dictatorship? Something less distasteful to the average person? I honestly don’t know. If they do change the nature of the Imperium so fundamentally it’s just going to be a bizarre historical fact that warhammer 40k started out as a 2000AD-style game about ironic fascism. Actually what is 2000AD like these days? Still ironic? Or is it nazi fan material? I don’t read it. Oh also, I gotta say… has uh, anyone else noticed how many people in this thread have Avatar avatars? I thought it was maybe the one poster just posting a lot, but there’s three different ones on this page!
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Oct 31, 2020 21:42
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enomie posted:Oh also, I gotta say… has uh, anyone else noticed how many people in this thread have Avatar avatars? I thought it was maybe the one poster just posting a lot, but there’s three different ones on this page! It's what happens if you die in this subforum.
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Oct 31, 2020 22:11
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I don’t think he can walk back the ironic fascism since the space marines are literal ubermench. They might be able to make the inquisition into something that reflects the actual inquisition as being full of poo poo and a terrible thing but I doubt they want to cast the imperium of man in the light of what it actually is. there’s really no good way to walk it back. and they’ve realized what they’ve done because they’re actively telling their nazi fans to gently caress off but there’s not a good way to rework the whole mythos without redefining everything they’ve done over the last 40 years.
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Oct 31, 2020 22:20
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enomie posted:Oh also, I gotta say… has uh, anyone else noticed how many people in this thread have Avatar avatars? I thought it was maybe the one poster just posting a lot, but there’s three different ones on this page! Post in the Avatar thread. Join us.
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Nov 1, 2020 00:11
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TK-42-1 posted:I don’t think he can walk back the ironic fascism since the space marines are literal ubermench. They might be able to make the inquisition into something that reflects the actual inquisition as being full of poo poo and a terrible thing but I doubt they want to cast the imperium of man in the light of what it actually is. there’s really no good way to walk it back. and they’ve realized what they’ve done because they’re actively telling their nazi fans to gently caress off but there’s not a good way to rework the whole mythos without redefining everything they’ve done over the last 40 years. I think that's why along with pushing the timeline forward they're also bringing back primarchs who see everything and are like, "wait, no, what the gently caress are you all doing? This isn't what the emperor wanted" to set the stage for changes going forward. Easier to change the future than rewrite the past.
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Nov 1, 2020 00:20
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frogge posted:I think that's why along with pushing the timeline forward they're also bringing back primarchs who see everything and are like, "wait, no, what the gently caress are you all doing? This isn't what the emperor wanted" to set the stage for changes going forward. Easier to change the future than rewrite the past. Yeah I mean that makes sense but it’s still basically a demigod telling humanity to do something different. If they really wanted to change things they’d do that fan stuff of having the emperor come back as a woman and set everything “right” and go from there. Or do an age of sigmar reboot and kill their business.
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Nov 1, 2020 00:40
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Maybe they'll have a civil war between the Imperium and the space marines? A second Heresy between the corrupt misguided human High Lords of Terra and the er... glorious and right-minded transhumans? Certainly a good excuse for all Imperium factions to face off on the tabletop.
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Nov 1, 2020 02:53
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The traitor primarchs went bad* because they concluded that the Emperor is a hypocritical tyrant and that he will discard them when they are done conquering the galaxy, and it's not exactly clear that they were wrong. "The Imperium is bad" is written into the DNA of the setting in a hundred different ways at this point. * Most of the traitors were completely batshit well before the Heresy
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Nov 1, 2020 17:15
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Sodomy Hussein posted:"The Imperium is bad" is written into the DNA of the setting in a hundred different ways at this point. It's not a mutually exclusive thing, even though heroic/dystopic are complete opposites. If you want heroic ubermenschen routing out the impure and unclean, GW will sell you that. If you want antiheroics and irony and the smug satisfaction that people who like the ubermenschen are all stupid, GW will sell you that, too. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Nov 1, 2020 |
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Nov 1, 2020 17:22
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The Orks are the good guys in 40k. Lots of people joke about it, but I think it's true. Orks are the only faction (except maybe Tryanids) who are honest with themselves. Every other faction hides behind some justification for their atrocities. Part of the core of the 40k setting is that everything is bad, it's not just the 40th Millennium, it's The Grim Darkness of the 40th Millennium. It's important that everything is bad all the time, so that when someone rises up and fights against it, even if the fight is futile and the results are only fleeting, it's an act of monumental heroism. Individuals can be good and pure, they are bright shining points of light that briefly light up the universe so we can see how dark it really is. If you take that away, you're just left with a pastiche of Star Wars and Lord of the Rings.
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Nov 1, 2020 17:53
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Actually “we killed them because the whole planet might turn into a portal to hell” is slightly better than “we just wanted to kill them”  It’s kind of a problem with the “bad imperium” reading; a lot of what they do actually is justifiable from a utilitarian perspective. It’s like how dragon age games try to make you sympathetic to the oppression of mages but every time they get free reign, they do turn into murderous reality warping demons that the player has to slay en masse. Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Nov 1, 2020 |
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Nov 1, 2020 18:50
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Actually “we killed them because the whole planet might turn into a portal to hell” is slightly better than “we just wanted to kill them” But Chaos festers in secrecy and continues to thrive because it feeds on human misery and hatred. Exterminatus is like using bullets to seal a bleeding wound. The Interex showed that if humanity was enlightened and open about chaos that it could be safely kept at bay. So of course the Imperium destroyed the Interex, because anything good in 40k is doomed.
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Nov 1, 2020 21:11
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If the Eldar had had universal healthcare they could've gotten therapy for their sex addiction
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Nov 1, 2020 22:30
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