|
Why are people mad about a series with a lot of characters and events having a lot of callbacks and references to those characters and events
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2020 02:34
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 29, 2024 08:08 |
|
|
Endorph posted:anyway that rpgsite review feels like someone having a mental breakdown that a jrpg series was the same thing it always was 4 really does take it to ridiculous levels though. You no joke have 39 playable characters by the end of the game and a huge chunk of the script is just padding so everyone has something to say but never saying anything of actual substance. It gets to the point where any tension in critical scenes are completely deflated because the party are saying variations of "yeah you go Rean" for minutes while the villains just stand there. I know that's always been a problem with the series and you'd be right, but 4's big problem is that it does it too much, too often that it kinda becomes a bit of a slog to get through. Even if the old XSEED crew were handling the localization, they'd seriously struggle to spice up the dialogue like they did in the first two Cold Steel games. NISA had no chance of making it more interesting. I do think the review is harsh but honestly, the complaints are entirely valid and I consider Cold Steel 4 to probably be the weakest Trails game because of it. That's honestly not an outlier opinion, reception to the game when it released in Japan was mixed as well, with some people loving seeing the giant ensemble cast interacting with each other like The Avengers and others wondering why the game is actively wasting their time because of the bloat. It's still worth playing but, honestly don't be surprised if people tap out of the series after playing it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2020 02:44
|
|
|
It can't be worse than SC where you could choose your party members and they all shared generic responses to 90% of events and basically ceased existing for huge swathes of the game. (TC's teleport system it a lot more bearable to dig for the unique bits in these events, so really only SC suffered for it.)
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2020 02:49
|
|
|
Mr. Fortitude posted:4 really does take it to ridiculous levels though. You no joke have 39 playable characters by the end of the game and a huge chunk of the script is just padding so everyone has something to say but never saying anything of actual substance. It gets to the point where any tension in critical scenes are completely deflated because the party are saying variations of "yeah you go Rean" for minutes while the villains just stand there. Like maybe I'm just approaching this weirdly because to me, Trails is Naruto only the girls get to do stuff sometimes. That's the standards I have here.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2020 02:55
|
|
|
MythosDragon posted:It can't be worse than SC where you could choose your party members and they all shared generic responses to 90% of events and basically ceased existing for huge swathes of the game. (TC's teleport system it a lot more bearable to dig for the unique bits in these events, so really only SC suffered for it.) To CS4's credit, there's a lot of situations where you are either forced to use certain characters or your choices are limited. Those also tend to be the best moments of the game since the characters actually have a chance to shine. But generally speaking if you thought SC was bad for it, CS4 is much worse
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2020 02:55
|
|
|
MythosDragon posted:It can't be worse than SC where you could choose your party members and they all shared generic responses to 90% of events and basically ceased existing for huge swathes of the game. (TC's teleport system it a lot more bearable to dig for the unique bits in these events, so really only SC suffered for it.) if only they'd programmatically given them accents or something..
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2020 02:59
|
|
|
Mr. Fortitude posted:To CS4's credit, there's a lot of situations where you are either forced to use certain characters or your choices are limited. Those also tend to be the best moments of the game since the characters actually have a chance to shine. I think all the second games suffer for it and it hurts the series more than bonds do, but I barely noticed it while replaying CS2 after SC. You generally have 1 segment with quick dungeons in CS2 where you can demolish a boss asap with sbreaks compared to multiple segments bits and hp sponge bosses in SC, also SC had like 3 times as many points where it was a thing. And if people are annoyed that their currently optional characters just grunt and repeat lines, than thats less a bloat issue and more a need to tell falcom we value the characters and writing more than getting to choose our party.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2020 03:06
|
|
|
MythosDragon posted:And if people are annoyed that their currently optional characters just grunt and repeat lines, than thats less a bloat issue and more a need to tell falcom we value the characters and writing more than getting to choose our party. Coincidentally, there's been some recent rumors regarding Falcom staff being at odds with the series' lead writer, Hisayoshi Takeiri. Apparently, he even got in a huge spat with Fumika Murakami, the lady who serves as CS's main artist. Take it with a grain of salt, though. It might not be as bad as it sounds.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2020 03:22
|
|
|
I would absolutely not take rumors about companies, especially Japanese companies, at all seriously without anything resembling proof. JP internet invent some wild rumors, especially when women are involved.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2020 03:24
|
|
|
Idkbutlike2 posted:Coincidentally, there's been some recent rumors regarding Falcom staff being at odds with the series' lead writer, Hisayoshi Takeiri. Apparently, he even got in a huge spat with Fumika Murakami, the lady who serves as CS's main artist. Take it with a grain of salt, though. It might not be as bad as it sounds. If nothing else, thank you for giving me names to respect. I've always been sad I didnt have names to to attach to the art or writing. I was amazed when Kondo answered my question last year saying he wrote the Sky NPCs himself.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2020 03:30
|
|
|
MythosDragon posted:If nothing else, thank you for giving me names to respect. I've always been sad I didnt have names to to attach to the art or writing. I was amazed when Kondo answered my question last year saying he wrote the Sky NPCs himself. Falcom has had a pretty lovely crediting policy since like 1990, largely thanks to a massive staff exodus that happened in 1989. Kato didn't want his employees' reputations to surpass that of Falcom as a company, so their games now tend to group staff into vague categories so as to not make individual contributions too obvious (if they're credited at all). To this day, most people still couldn't tell you the names of artists who designed characters and did promo art for Falcom in the last two decades.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2020 03:40
|
|
|
Idkbutlike2 posted:Falcom has had a pretty lovely crediting policy since like 1990, largely thanks to a massive staff exodus that happened in 1989. Kato didn't want his employees' reputations to surpass that of Falcom as a company, so their games now tend to group staff into vague categories so as to not make individual contributions too obvious (if they're credited at all). To this day, most people still couldn't tell you the names of artists who designed characters and did promo art for Falcom in the last two decades. I know about the exodus, almost every RPG in the early 90s was affected by it. That's actually really lovely and I hope they change it soon. Hard to imagine these people stuff so much love into things their names arnt even fully recorded in.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2020 03:50
|
|
|
Endorph posted:anyway that rpgsite review feels like someone having a mental breakdown that a jrpg series was the same thing it always was The issue is that it isn't the same as it always was. It's always been kind of an issue with the Trials games but not really to the point where I felt like the plot suffered for it. In CSVI there is a hard point where it feels like the plot goes from the usual solid Trails writing to meandering time-filler with a lesser amount of what genuinely makes Trials games great experiences. It still has those moments mind, but not as many as I'd like. It's especially lovely of you to say that someone is having a mental breakdown because they wrote a review for a game and you've decided they are wrong. Endorph posted:yeah to me that all sounds like it owns and is what i expect and want from this series and i am confused what people expected cs4 to be if not that As far as I am aware one of the biggest complaints about Naruto is that it had an overly bloated and poorly used cast so that isn't exactly high praise. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 03:59 on Oct 24, 2020 |
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2020 03:56
|
|
|
I mean so far, I'm in chapter 3 of CS3 and just heading to bryonia island, but the game really is especially bad with wasting your time, for sure. It could do to be a lot more streamlined.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2020 04:02
|
|
|
GreenBuckanneer posted:I mean so far, I'm in chapter 3 of CS3 and just heading to bryonia island, but the game really is especially bad with wasting your time, for sure. I've heard people say that Trails of Cold Steel feels like two games stretched over four games and honestly I can't say I really disagree. I think you could probably trim them down to two games without losing much.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2020 04:06
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:I've heard people say that Trails of Cold Steel feels like two games stretched over four games and honestly I can't say I really disagree. I think you could probably trim them down to two games without losing much. You could make it into a 12 episode anime and you wouldn't be missing much, honestly. sky/duo could be another 12 episodes and we're supposedly at the halfway mark with CS4/Hajimari or so, so s2 is probably just rean as Cassius bright 2.0 and throw all whatever that is in a second season GreenBuckanneer fucked around with this message at 04:14 on Oct 24, 2020 |
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2020 04:12
|
|
|
So one of the cool things about Falcom. They always go in planning 1 game for each of the trails arcs, before realizing they'd be accidentally making a game last 100 hours when the norm is 60, but instead of doing the normal thing and trimming content, they just continue making it till there's enough for 2 full fledged games. You might call it bloat, but I call it a wonderful level of detail. It's precisely because they don't force themselves to limit what they want to make that most of us love them so much.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2020 04:12
|
|
|
MythosDragon posted:So one of the cool things about Falcom. They always go in planning 1 game for each of the trails arcs, before realizing they'd be accidentally making a game last 100 hours when the norm is 60, but instead of doing the normal thing and trimming content, they just continue making it till there's enough for 2 full fledged games. The issue there is that very frequently there isn't enough there for two full fledged games. There's enough plot certainly but not enough gameplay so you end up doing the same things over and over again. That's a problem with many JRPGs to be fair but Trails has it worse in that the games in the same subfranchise don't really change that much so it basically amounts to you reaching the end of a JRPG and then you're reset to level 1 and have to deal with the gradual buildup of power again despite the characters mostly regaining the same moves, Quartz and general playstyle. CSIV subverts this slightly by starting you at level 50 and with nerfed versions of your moves that you upgrade to being powerful again which is something I like about it, but honestly the way the game is designed it amounts to returning to Level 1 but with an actual moveset.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2020 04:20
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:The issue there is that very frequently there isn't enough there for two full fledged games. There's enough plot certainly but not enough gameplay so you end up doing the same things over and over again. That's a problem with many JRPGs to be fair but Trails has it worse in that the games in the same subfranchise don't really change that much so it basically amounts to you reaching the end of a JRPG and then you're reset to level 1 and have to deal with the gradual buildup of power again despite the characters mostly regaining the same moves, Quartz and general playstyle. CSIV subverts this slightly by starting you at level 50 and with nerfed versions of your moves that you upgrade to being powerful again which is something I like about it, but honestly the way the game is designed it amounts to returning to Level 1 but with an actual moveset. I absolutely could not disagree with this more. I LOVE RPGS, experiencing all the wonderful stories they and novels can tell is one of my main purposes in life. But no matter how much I enjoy the gameplay of an RPG, even my favorites like RTSRPG and Time Card Battle, I will inevitably get gameplay fatigue before finishing it, sometimes I never manage to come back. The one series that doesnt have this issue? Trails. Especially Cold Steel. The gameplay to story balance is perfect. I spend a few hours talking to npcs and doing the plot, and then I spend a few hours on the road or in a dungeon, and by the time I finish one I'm refreshed and ready for the other. Its a magical system that only became more powerful with turbo. I am constantly wishing for a turbo button in every other game I play.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2020 04:31
|
|
|
MythosDragon posted:I absolutely could not disagree with this more. You are literally the first person who I've ever heard say that. Even people who love Trails games complain about that. There's a reason why "read the LP" was a common refrain for the In The Skies games even from people who love them. (I don't necessarily agree with that but I also can absolutely understand where it comes from.) It's cool if it works for you and I'm glad it does, but it's so weird to hear someone say they *don't* think Trails has pacing issues.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2020 04:34
|
|
|
Oh you're new to mythos. I'm sorry.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2020 04:37
|
|
|
MythosDragon posted:You might call it bloat, but I call it a wonderful level of detail. It's precisely because they don't force themselves to limit what they want to make that most of us love them so much. Well, we don't really know how much of that was intentional. Sky FC and SC were initially meant to be a single game and CS definitely wasn't planned to be a tetrology. Pushing cut content back to later game can be neat, but it largely depends on the quality of that content and whether it actually makes sense in the second game. If the developers find themselves having to bend over backwards to accommodate that content, it could hurt the second game overall.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2020 04:39
|
|
|
Sky is the same way with balance. Its just that the attack animations are horrifically slow and you lack quality of life things like npcs marked on the map. Most everyone I talk to generally agrees with this assessment on my side. MythosDragon fucked around with this message at 04:44 on Oct 24, 2020 |
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2020 04:42
|
|
|
Heck, I'm not trying to be a jerk about the games, I like them a lot too despite complaints. For a boost of positivity Trails of Cold Steel IV does a fantastic job with Musse. She gets to come into her own and be an active and cool character who escapes from being tied mostly to the "Oh Rean~<3" stuff. Her weird mysterious teasing stuff is a lot more enjoyable when put into action in ways that aren't teasing people or Being Mysterious. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 04:58 on Oct 24, 2020 |
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2020 04:43
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:Heck, I'm not trying to be a jerk about the games, I like them a lot too despite complaints. Don't worry, I can tell based on how well you worded your first reply to me that you have no intention of being a jerk. My apologies if my disagreements have come across jerky myself. I'm excited for that, her magical chess powers at the end of CS3 were my biggest issue with the game. MythosDragon fucked around with this message at 04:49 on Oct 24, 2020 |
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2020 04:47
|
|
|
I'm in chapter 3 of CS3.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2020 04:48
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:As far as I am aware one of the biggest complaints about Naruto is that it had an overly bloated and poorly used cast so that isn't exactly high praise. Like Campanella giving mysterious hints is because mysterious hints are a cool shonen thing to do not because there'll actually be a massive payoff for it. Like I'm sure there'll be a payoff but I'm not expecting anything more mindblowing than another half-explained ouroboros plan. idk, you get what I mean, right? This is what Trails has always been to me. It's like One Piece only everyone's character designs didn't get terrible after the two year timeskip. And One Piece has been having the same bloated cast problem way worse than Trails ever could so still ahead of the curve there.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2020 04:51
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:You are literally the first person who I've ever heard say that. Even people who love Trails games complain about that. There's a reason why "read the LP" was a common refrain for the In The Skies games even from people who love them. (I don't necessarily agree with that but I also can absolutely understand where it comes from.) The thing about people recommending Trails in the Sky LPs is that the gameplay systems in Trails in the Sky are terrible. The games don't ask you to do too much gameplay - if anything there's too much story with how many NPC storylines there are to advance - it's just that the gameplay that is there is very very bad, so turning turbo up to max to get in and out as fast as possible is important.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2020 05:37
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:You are literally the first person who I've ever heard say that. Even people who love Trails games complain about that. There's a reason why "read the LP" was a common refrain for the In The Skies games even from people who love them. (I don't necessarily agree with that but I also can absolutely understand where it comes from.) Add me to the apparently small list of people that genuinely like the Gameplay loop for Trails, especially Cold Steel?
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2020 07:00
|
|
|
I didn't realise people weren't into Trails gameplay it definitely feels like it's hitting a certain niche? I'm not a fan of everything but as far as turn-based battle systems go I think Trails has a really fun one and I think it has a fairly well developed world (moreso Erebonia than Liberl I suppose) and it's fun to get more into it by talking to all the npcs and like reading the in-universe novels (even if they're all pretty bad). I've only finished a couple of the games and am a decent way through a couple more but CS1 is probably my favourite so far and a lot of that is because of spending so much time in Erebonia with all those class studies and in probably spending like at least dozens of hours in Trista over the course of the game. There's definitely some big issues with it (NPCs that give books, recipes and additional quests and such should absolutely be marked and it's real terrible they're not) and there is pretty big pacing issues though i think a lot of the pacing problems are due to narrative rather than gameplay loop. SC and CSII have the exact same problem where the first few chapters (and like 30 hours) are kinda just the same thing repeating but in different locations and with different characters. To an extent I enjoy being introduced to a fun new villain and having them accomplish their dastardly plan and escape but it begins to feel a bit rote when it happens for the 3rd time and even though some pretty fun stuff and cool developments happen in all these chapters it almost feels like the protagonists aren't really accomplishing much of anything.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2020 09:18
|
|
|
I like the gameplay in Cold Steel, they refined it to the point that it matches what they were going for without being finicky or, in Sky's case specifically, interminally slow
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2020 09:28
|
|
|
Sky's game play turned me off from actually playing it myself, in part because it refuses to give you a full party for the longest time with constant forced rotations. And being slow, and the quartz system was ultimately more busy body tedium then just equipping the spell.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2020 09:43
|
|
|
So how bad is fishing in CS4, because the CS3 version is hot rear end
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2020 09:47
|
|
|
Tae posted:Sky's game play turned me off from actually playing it myself, in part because it refuses to give you a full party for the longest time with constant forced rotations. The forced rotations are way cool though! Agree about the frequent 2 person parties and quartz system though.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2020 09:49
|
|
|
kirbysuperstar posted:So how bad is fishing in CS4, because the CS3 version is hot rear end It's the exact same as far as I remember Except this time the fish are CURSED!
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2020 09:55
|
|
|
Bland posted:It's the exact same as far as I remember nooooooo
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2020 09:58
|
|
|
Sorry for the major spoiler but fishing is the same in Hajimari as well
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2020 10:12
|
|
|
Honestly, the other issue I have with CS4 though this is very much personal opinion is that I think the writing and world building isn't very good in it. I won't go too deep into spoilers but a lot of the mysteries being built from as far back as Sky are dealt with in a way which feels like a Deus ex Machina instead of given any satisfying explanation. It probably won't bother you if you're not a super fan of the series but if you've been invested in the world building or mysteries set since the Sky games then I'm honestly curious to see post-release reactions and if people are as disappointed as I was.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2020 11:02
|
|
|
For what it's worth I cannot imagine any kind of explanation of Ouroboros' plans that would satisfying. It's sort of clear by now that they exist entirely to be mysterious villains and any kind of understandable motivation is a distant afterthought.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2020 11:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 29, 2024 08:08 |
|
|
Clarste posted:For what it's worth I cannot imagine any kind of explanation of Ouroboros' plans that would satisfying. It's sort of clear by now that they exist entirely to be mysterious villains and any kind of logical motivation is a distant afterthought. grandmaster of ouroboros: its okay, anelace. this entire plan has made it so that you can kiss girls now. you dont have to be a comedy character. anelace: estelle already got basically married tho grandmaster: *dial up modem noises* duvalie: can *I* kiss girls grandmaster: no
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2020 12:00
|
|