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The MSJ posted:There actually multiple games now with "story" difficulty where the combat parts are super easy. Loved that in Uncharted 4. Never liked the gunplay in those games, but the jumping around and puzzling was fun.
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Nov 2, 2020 06:08
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The MSJ posted:There actually multiple games now with "story" difficulty where the combat parts are super easy. I'm pretty sure Metal Gear Solid 2 did it way back in 2001 or so. Deus Ex in 2011 definitely did.
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Nov 2, 2020 06:58
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Also known as 'Reviewer' difficulty.
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Nov 2, 2020 07:12
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The MSJ posted:There actually multiple games now with "story" difficulty where the combat parts are super easy. Yeah that's the nutty part she was 100% right.
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Nov 2, 2020 07:19
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Yeah I remember that whole argument and it was so goddamn stupid. Its been sort of subsumed into the apparently more acceptable "accessibility" option where gamers don't get their feefees hurt when you don't call it a difficulty setting but do have a menu where you can set your health and ammo and ability to jump to infinite.
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Nov 2, 2020 09:38
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Imagine caring about how other people choose to play their single-player games. Story mode or extreme I Hate Myself difficulties... I love that games are moving beyond just having easy, standard and hard. Especially if it means the developer took more effort than just creating a "you do X amount of damage, enemies do Y" switch.
Mierenneuker fucked around with this message at 09:57 on Nov 2, 2020 |
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Nov 2, 2020 09:53
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There was just a multi page derail over in pyf because gamers still think games shouldn't have easy modes. It's fine if you buy a game and it's just too hard to beat
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Nov 2, 2020 09:55
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MechanicalTomPetty posted:I just found out that GamerGate got its start on SA; or rather, the guy who started it got his dumb rear end banned for going off on an unhinged rant about his ex-girlfriend, went off to whine about it somewhere else and everything spiraled off from there. I remember that thread. It was hilarious seeing him getting dunked on. Shame about what happened afterwards.
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Nov 2, 2020 10:06
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Len posted:There was just a multi page derail over in pyf because gamers still think games shouldn't have easy modes. It's fine if you buy a game and it's just too hard to beat The dumb thing about this argument is that games were super hard in the old days just to make them last longer. Remember the dark days of games making you start over again on Hard if you actually wanted to finish the game? I sure as hell do. Heck, you can argue that adding accessibility makes more business sense now since not only are you getting customers that would not otherwise play your game but also keep an increasingly aging audience with slowing reflexes. AceOfFlames fucked around with this message at 10:17 on Nov 2, 2020 |
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Nov 2, 2020 10:14
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AceOfFlames posted:The dumb thing about this argument is that games were super hard in the old days just to make them last longer. Remember the dark days of games making you start over again on Hard if you actually wanted to finish the game? I sure as hell do. It's also to make sure you spend more quarters
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Nov 2, 2020 12:01
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In arcades it was for quarters, for home release it was because they hadn't realized you didn't want to funnel pretend quarters into a game you paid for or they were trying to fight against you beating it during a rental.
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Nov 2, 2020 12:57
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_aaron posted:Loved that in Uncharted 4. Never liked the gunplay in those games, but the jumping around and puzzling was fun. My exact thought. The combat in Uncharted is so tedious, but the set piece action scenes are fun.
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Nov 2, 2020 13:19
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There are still goons who defend glorious FROM software against the evil hordes of disabled people and GIRLS who want Sekiro to have a map or easy mode
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Nov 2, 2020 13:24
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Those same goons are going to wake up one morning in their late 40s early 50s and find out what repetitive stress injury arthritis is too.
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Nov 2, 2020 13:36
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Simone Magus posted:There are still goons who defend glorious FROM software against the evil hordes of disabled people and GIRLS who want Sekiro to have a map or easy mode Having a map is stupid but there's been this weird conflation between difficulty and accessibility options (from both pro and anti). They aren't the same thing. Groovelord Neato fucked around with this message at 14:31 on Nov 2, 2020 |
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Nov 2, 2020 14:17
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Mierenneuker posted:Imagine caring about how other people choose to play their single-player games. Story mode or extreme I Hate Myself difficulties... I love that games are moving beyond just having easy, standard and hard. Especially if it means the developer took more effort than just creating a "you do X amount of damage, enemies do Y" switch. I played Doom 3 a couple months ago, and it’s a fun case study in difficulty levels. In the original Doom games, the non-joke difficulty levels changed the number of monsters and items on a level, and how much ammo you got from ammo pickups. In Doom 3, the difficulty (again, aside from the clear joke difficulty) only changes how much damage the enemies do to you. Difficulty goes from changing how the combat encounters and level flow play out to how often you need health packs.
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Nov 2, 2020 15:32
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The Souls-like die hards are especially sad because they all miss the point of those games. They aren't about being unfairly hard, they are about persistence and overcoming challenge. And that absolutely does not preclude difficulty/accessibility options.
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Nov 2, 2020 15:33
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Groovelord Neato posted:Having a map is stupid but there's been this weird conflation between difficulty and accessibility options (from both pro and anti). They aren't the same thing. There are people with memory issues for whom a map would make those games playable. It absolutely should be an option.
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Nov 2, 2020 15:58
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I cannot imagine giving a single gently caress about how other people are playing videogames good god
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Nov 2, 2020 16:50
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Simone Magus posted:There are people with memory issues for whom a map would make those games playable. It absolutely should be an option. The great thing about dark souls specifically is that it already comes with a built in system to get help if you need it. Just summon another player into your world and let them guide you towards the finish line. (Of course, the game doesn't do a great job of telling you the requirements of how to make this happen.) And even beyond that, we live in the information age. The game at least tells you the name of the area you're in when you enter it, just plug it into YouTube and get help that way. I think the addition of certain gameplay elements like a toggle-able minimap would have taken something away from my personal experience, and I don't think it's ableist to say so, as you're implying. In an age where we have access to so much information, I really treasure that dark souls was able to make me feel well and truly lost.
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Nov 2, 2020 17:14
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What exactly would you loose if the developers made the game more accessible by offering a map you, personally, could choose to not use?
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Nov 2, 2020 17:38
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The Klowner posted:And even beyond that, we live in the information age. The game at least tells you the name of the area you're in when you enter it, just plug it into YouTube and get help that way. Not everyone has access to the internet 24/7. As to the notion that an optional map function would have ruined your experience because, I assume, you feel like you wouldn't have been able to resist using it? Uh, isn't that entirely on you?
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Nov 2, 2020 17:41
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8one6 posted:What exactly would you loose if the developers made the game more accessible by offering a map you, personally, could choose to not use? Literally nothing and that's what these goobers don't grok
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Nov 2, 2020 17:42
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It's not part of the game's design. It's such a weird thing that the focus is on these games and not the tons of others that lack maps. I play Risk of Rain 2 a lot - there's no map (poo poo and it could probably use one even for people without memory issues).
Groovelord Neato fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Nov 2, 2020 |
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Nov 2, 2020 17:43
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Groovelord Neato posted:It's not part of the game's design. The vast majority of games are designed for those who can see colors, yet many still have colorblind mode.
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Nov 2, 2020 17:52
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mycot posted:I still feel really bad for that one woman who basically became the Most Hated Person On the Internet for saying video games should have a story only mode. If she's the person I'm thinking of, it's doubly crazy because she was pointing out that so many people basically played Mass Effect and other Bioware games as light novels interrupted by annoying shooting sections. People who play Mass Effect to shoot aliens can easily just mash through dialogue and skip cutscenes, but people who are interested in the other half have no option to just "skip combat" and get to the dialog choices. They're both ways of skipping the gameplay you don't like to focus on the gameplay you do! 8one6 posted:What exactly would you loose if the developers made the game more accessible by offering a map you, personally, could choose to not use? I think there's artistic value that could be had in game devs leaning on the desire to have a map in players. Mapping translates geographical space (which is usually the real enemy of video games as you cross from left to right or across the world) into something reduced and controllable. There's definitely an emotional response to realizing that this-place-and-that-place are connected that loses its punch if you can just check a map and see the connection instead of recognizing landmarks, and you can do some subtle environmental storytelling with it—Dark Souls 1 is built on a Divine Comedy-esque design with the Inferno at the base of a mountain and Olympus at the top, but the whole paradigm's a lie—there's no gods in heaven and the real "base" that the mountain's built on is and endless, tranquil lake of ash, the remnants of the previous race the gods killed to take control of the world. Dark Souls 2 does a lot with impossible geography (you take an elevator up from a windmill to a massive iron fortress) and actually has a more decorative map as an artistic, rather than gameplay, touch to emphasize how strange space is in Drangleic. It... doesn't work as well as the previous game, but I see where they're coming from. But much like how subtitles draws the eye to the bottom of the screen, away from what the cinematographer wants you to look at, just because there's artistic value that's lost with accessibility doesn't mean that it's outweighed by the benefits of accessibility.
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Nov 2, 2020 17:54
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Precambrian posted:But much like how subtitles draws the eye to the bottom of the screen, away from what the cinematographer wants you to look at, just because there's artistic value that's lost with accessibility doesn't mean that it's outweighed by the benefits of accessibility. Yes, exactly, thank you Like, I personally would never have used a map in Outer Wilds, or Journey, or Ico, or whatever. I comprehend and love the design philosophy of only diagetic maps or markers. But, in this incredibly specific accessibility area (maps), we're talking about one of the easiest accessibility options to add.
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Nov 2, 2020 17:59
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mycot posted:I still feel really bad for that one woman who basically became the Most Hated Person On the Internet for saying video games should have a story only mode. Given that so many game designers are quite obviously failed and frustrated film directors who don't give a poo poo about gameplay and just want you to watch their 'cinematic experience' by making everything cool an unskippable cut scene, I'm not sure where her comment is controversial. Simone Magus posted:There are people with memory issues for whom a map would make those games playable. It absolutely should be an option. I actually do have a severely, medically, impaired memory and I've never once thought that those games need a map. A dialogue element to remind you towards the end of the game that area X is somewhere that exists and should be returned to yes, but never an actual map to get there. Lovely Joe Stalin fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Nov 2, 2020 |
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Nov 2, 2020 18:01
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I suck at video games and I have little patience for dying/restarting/losing progress. At this point I've gotten used to just watching longplays on YouTube, but if there were an option to just skip the frustrating stuff I'd definitely swap over to a story mode and buy way more games. Who doesn't win in that scenario?
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Nov 2, 2020 18:47
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The dirty secret of AAA games is that all of the frustrating stuff is put there with the intent of wasting your time and driving you towards paying to skip it. That is why they would never just give you a story mode option.
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Nov 2, 2020 18:56
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Witcher 3 had a "story mode" difficulty and the ability to turn off the mini map. I beat that game with most of the UI, including the mini map, off, and while the game will let you do it, and I'm grateful they did, its absolutely not designed for it; I failed more than one quest by wandering outside of the "mission area" that was only defined on the mini map. Every recent Ubisoft openworld game has the same UI toggles and the same problems with disabling most of the UI; the visual design assumes a UI and doesn't convey enough by itself.
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Nov 2, 2020 19:11
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The Saddest Rhino posted:It's also to make sure you spend more quarters If I remember correctly Disney has straight up said that they made the Lion King game so difficult that it couldn't be beaten in a rental period.
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Nov 2, 2020 19:28
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Jack B Nimble posted:Witcher 3 had a "story mode" difficulty and the ability to turn off the mini map. I beat that game with most of the UI, including the mini map, off, and while the game will let you do it, and I'm grateful they did, its absolutely not designed for it; I failed more than one quest by wandering outside of the "mission area" that was only defined on the mini map. Every recent Ubisoft openworld game has the same UI toggles and the same problems with disabling most of the UI; the visual design assumes a UI and doesn't convey enough by itself. This happens in Red Dead Redemption 2 as well. There's a specific mission where you have to hide a stagecoach in a secluded spot but it has to be an extremely specific spot that's shown on the minimap so if you have it off you're hosed.
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Nov 2, 2020 19:41
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Alhazred posted:If I remember correctly Disney has straight up said that they made the Lion King game so difficult that it couldn't be beaten in a rental period. This is also why a lot of games were made harder for their NA releases than they were in Japan (Streets of Rage 3, for example)- game rentals were banned in Japan (may still be, not that it matters as much anymore).
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Nov 2, 2020 20:01
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Difficulty and accessibility aren't synonyms and it really sucks that the conversation around making games more accessible immediately conflated the two because someone got owned in Sekrio
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Nov 2, 2020 22:04
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Simone Magus posted:Not everyone has access to the internet 24/7. Yes, it is. I'm an incredibly selfish person.
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Nov 2, 2020 22:48
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RBA Starblade posted:Difficulty and accessibility aren't synonyms Well, there are two radically different kinds of difficulty - mechanical and informational. Accounting for everyone seems like a fine idea when it's not prohibitively raising development costs. In any combat oriented game, at minimum, the inclusion of sliders for player and enemy durability seems like an easy and obvious first step. And that would not be expensive at all.
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Nov 2, 2020 22:59
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Snowman_McK posted:I'm pretty sure Metal Gear Solid 2 did it way back in 2001 or so. Deus Ex in 2011 definitely did. Yup. Mass Effect 3 too, I think ME3 was the first game where it was like, a marketing bulletpoint that it had it. Early RE games too I think, like with the original RE3 you can start on easy and get some extra good weaponry out of the first chest to let you steamroll most of it. The System Shock and Silent Hill games (well most of them) also have separate difficulty settings for the combat and for the puzzles which is really awesome.
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Nov 2, 2020 23:18
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The game that had the "story mode" thing was Mass Effect 3. I'm sure I made an embarrassing post about how it was a stupid idea when it was announced. But not too long later I got a more traditional 8-5 office job and understood the appeal of it when Witcher 3 came out. I don't think it was in the original release, but when they ported Bayonetta to Wii U/Switch they added a new extra easy difficulty that auto-dodges every enemy attack.
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Nov 3, 2020 02:59
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:Given that so many game designers are quite obviously failed and frustrated film directors who don't give a poo poo about gameplay and just want you to watch their 'cinematic experience' by making everything cool an unskippable cut scene, I'm not sure where her comment is controversial.
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Nov 3, 2020 03:20
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