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I'm not Godwining, btw. Zod is literally space Hitler within the text. He wants to commit genocide to benefit his master race.
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Nov 28, 2020 19:15
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Madkal posted:Hitler is the ultimate boogeyman (hello Godwin). I would have preferred him to be captured and tried in front of the world. And then hung. Israel literally murdered an Iranian in broad daylight just yesterday
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Nov 28, 2020 19:15
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I think that when we're at a point where we're bringing the real-world logistics of execution vs life imprisonment and Middle Eastern conflict into the conversation we've far exceeded the confines of this thread's subject. If you want to go in that hard on discussing Zack Snyder's filmography, there is a thread in CD specifically catered towards that topic. As for this thread, I'm going to have to ask you all to drop the discussion for now.
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Nov 28, 2020 19:48
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For all that something like -- sigh -- Infinite Crisis was a big loving hot mess in retrospect, I always look back on its overall depiction of the conflict between Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman as an interesting portrayal of these characters and their characterizations. There are certainly decent, justifiable reasons for Superman to...if not outright kill people himself...at least be okay with another hero who does, when there is no other choice and lives are on the line. And yet, Superman definitely has his own reasons why he can never be okay with that, and some of those reasons can be steeped in rationality and practicality, but others might just flat out be his own personal stubborn bullheaded refusal to be okay with that and that's completely fine. At the end of the day, it's simply interesting to have a character who has certain prohibitions. It's interesting to have a character who will absolutely just refuse to do a certain thing, and likewise who will absolutely always do other things, and it's interesting to see where those lines bend and break. It's through this process that you establish character. There's a lot of problems with Zod's death that's been discussed ad nausaeum, and one of those problems is that it doesn't establish...anything! We never establish how Superman feels about taking a life, fifteen minutes earlier he was fully complicit and even instrumental in establishing a plan to kill the rest of the Kryptonians via crushing singularity, he screams after he kills Zod and then nothing is ever mentioned of it again. Does he regret it? Would he do it again in the future if pressed? Who loving knows! It's a mystery  !Meanwhile, Batman kills people in the sequel, evidently to show how far he's sunken as a man and a hero, but then he's still killing people at the warehouse after he comes to terms with Superman, sooo??.......?...??.....??...what was the takeaway here? What difference is there between sunken Batman and heroic Batman? Is he just gonna keep on killing people during his fights forever, now? There's no establishment of character here. And in its absence, the deliberate choice to have these characters kill doesn't come across as an interesting examination of their prohibitions and limits, but more like Snyder thinks superheroes who don't kill aren't mature and gritty enough for his mature gritty stories. This ain't your granddaddy's Superman! etc etc yada.
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Nov 29, 2020 01:25
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Whoever said it was boring nailed it. Superman is supposed to be the best of us and do the things no one else can do. Him punching the bad guys and then snapping Zod’s neck is a weak cop out and just the least interesting resolution.
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Nov 29, 2020 01:34
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The big problem is related to what BrianWIlly brought up: it's not based in established character. The audience is forced, in the moment, to realize that Superman is against killing, something that is at no point beforehand brought up and doesn't really make a ton of sense with multiple other details. And because the movie never shows this, there's no actual drama in it. Zod's death comes off as solving the screenwriting problem of "we can't have this character walking around" instead of being an actual moral dilemma. e: and then you also run into the problem of "why is this random family enough to make Superman do this when Metropolis is getting graphically loving destroyed, presumably killing many thousands on the absolute low end" and we're back to that poo poo again Arist fucked around with this message at 02:00 on Nov 29, 2020 |
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Nov 29, 2020 01:54
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Arist posted:The big problem is related to what BrianWIlly brought up: it's not based in established character. The audience is forced, in the moment, to realize that Superman is against killing, something that is at no point beforehand brought up and doesn't really make a ton of sense with multiple other details. And because the movie never shows this, there's no actual drama in it. Zod's death comes off as solving the screenwriting problem of "we can't have this character walking around" instead of being an actual moral dilemma. I don't think that last part is necessarily a valid complaint. Superman was doing his best to try to make Zod stop and when he finally basically had him dead to rights Zod proved he wouldn't stop even if he was entirely restrained. "Why did he kill him now and not earlier" is because it was made pretty clear Zod couldn't be talked down or restrained and if he didn't act at that exact moment innocent people were going to die right in front of his eyes. This is pretty much dead on with the reasons Superman killed Zod in the comics where even though he had depowered him Zod promised he would find a way to get his powers back and then he would murder Superman's entire world (after murdering an entire pocket version of Earth beforehand.) As for the first part I think the issue isn't that. It isn't about Superman Not Killing not being set up enough or anything. It is that the entire emotional climax of the movie is Clark dealing with the idea that he can't save the last remnants of his own people because they won't let him. Which is harder to empathize with because what we saw of Krypton was an admittedly metal but total poo poo world and the Zod crew are entirely unsympathetic. Which actually thematically parallels with Pa Kent who acts in ways people find really offputting/unsympathetic and then refuses to allow himself to be saved. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 02:25 on Nov 29, 2020 |
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Nov 29, 2020 02:20
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Just watched Vin Diesel's Bloodshot, and what can I say? It's one of the best films of 1998.
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Nov 29, 2020 02:22
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Arist posted:e: and then you also run into the problem of "why is this random family enough to make Superman do this when Metropolis is getting graphically loving destroyed, presumably killing many thousands on the absolute low end" and we're back to that poo poo again And then the sequel specifically shows us scenes of civilians dying as the Zod/Supes fight rages, causing Batman to believe Superman is a danger. The movie frames Batman's hatred of Superman almost as a fear but Bruce clearly has a concrete reason to believe Superman is a threat. BrianWilly also makes a good point on how Supes feels about killing Zod. It is a mystery. And all the civilian deaths during their fight? Does he feel bad about that? Or does he just feel bad because other people are complaining about him in Senate hearings and cable news? Because it seems like the later moreso than the former.
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Nov 29, 2020 02:24
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The Batman murders are weird. There seems to be significant debate, even among fans of the film, about whether Batman being a murderer is indicative of his fall from the light, or just something this Batman has always done because it is "more realistic". After all, the Robin suit is holding an axe. That is not a sign of coherent characterization. The weird thing about the Superman killings is the only congruent lesson we can see that he got from Zod's death is that it was cool, seeming as at the start of BvS Superman is wasting terrorists with a smile. Guess he figured killing was actually awesome in between films.
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Nov 29, 2020 03:48
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And I mean...there's certainly a lot of stories and contexts where someone's secret innermost thoughts about the abstruse morality of life and death just...isn't all that important. Sometimes a character might really not have all that deep of an opinion about killing. Other times, they might, but it's not particularly vital and the audience is just trusted to roll with it. And that's fine, moving on. Not every story is about every single thing. The problem with MoS is that it absolutely wants us to contemplate these things, to navel-gaze about its grim choices, to enmesh ourselves in what it's doing...but it doesn't put in the work to set up or resolve these story beats in satisfying ways. It draws attention to Zod's death and highlights it as the capstone of the climax, but then says nothing of note about the act. The profundity is unearned. Again, the only real takeaway is that the director seems to like it when things are grimmer and darker. A similar issue happens with BvS where it really, really, really, really wants us to engage with the dilemma of Superman living on Earth and how humanity has to grapple with this new reality...but it actually doesn't matter in the end! He's dead and the people who worried about Superman being there don't have to worry about it any more! 'Cuz Superman isn't there anymore! Must there be a Superman? There isn't! Conflict resolved!Like, I'm writing my Dr. Strange vid essay right now and I'm certainly being very critical of it, but it's almost hard to be all that critical because no one was holding that poor flaccid fumbling script up as particularly insightful or...hm...not-flaccid?...in the first place. But if you're going to ascribe to profundity? You better be prepared walk that walk instead of just talking it.
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Nov 29, 2020 03:57
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I remember how utterly flat the theater felt after the Zod's death. It was Murder by Cop in a superhero movie and it felt like a betrayal of a character who is historically limitless. The movie even featured a characterization version of a Chekhov's gun in that Kal didn't have a programmed birth. He wasn't designed for any role and therefor should have freedom to be and do anything. Instead he is successfully forced into a choice by the villain.
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Nov 29, 2020 04:18
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BrianWilly posted:When you've made deliberate choices to render a character less appealing, you don't then get to wonder and whinge when people find the character unappealing.
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Nov 29, 2020 04:30
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I think it's kind of wild that there hasn't been a big superhero musical yet. I think the time is ripe. I think a huge, bombastic, sunny Squirrel Girl musical would be the bee's knees.
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Nov 29, 2020 04:44
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How Wonderful! posted:I think it's kind of wild that there hasn't been a big superhero musical yet. I think the time is ripe. I think a huge, bombastic, sunny Squirrel Girl musical would be the bee's knees. Spider-Man: Turn Off The Dark. The musical episode of Flash.
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Nov 29, 2020 04:56
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How Wonderful! posted:I think it's kind of wild that there hasn't been a big superhero musical yet. I think the time is ripe. I think a huge, bombastic, sunny Squirrel Girl musical would be the bee's knees. you forgot about spider-man: turn off the dark
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Nov 29, 2020 05:00
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Also Batman: The Brave and Bold did songs every once in a while, including a musical episode with NPH as the Music Meister.
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Nov 29, 2020 05:04
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Gee, if only there was some way to divine Supermans emotions and feelings about having to kill Zod. Guess we will never know  I do agree with the point that it would have been interesting to see more in depth the impact of the decision to kill Zod, that's a fair cop. However: Retro Futurist posted:Whoever said it was boring nailed it. Superman is supposed to be the best of us and do the things no one else can do. Him punching the bad guys and then snapping Zod’s neck is a weak cop out and just the least interesting resolution. No, the cop out would have been if there'd been some deus ex machina that removed Zod from the equation without forcing Supermans hand. Comic books are full of that kind of storytelling where the very fabric of the universe will contrive to protect the heroes morals, no matter how absurd the situation. They could have easily written the script in a way that had Zod getting sucked into the phantom zone with the rest of his cronies, but they didn't, is because they wanted to contrive an actual no-win situation for Superman. Because sometimes there is no super secret hidden option like in RPGs where everybody wins, sometimes all you have are bad options, and I think that's just as valid as having the character use some clever loophole to get Zod to surrender or depower him or whatever. Weird projections of Zack Snyder is contemptfully spitting in the face of Superman fans aside, there is nothing wrong with showing a fallible superhero that sometimes fails. Both MoS and BvS have a red thread about how Superman is struggling to best use his powers for the betterment of mankind, but also with the fallout from using those powers and doubting that he's making the right choices, but soldiering on regardless. Persevering in the face of adversity is heroic in of itself. I know plenty of folks who feel the portrayal of a well-meaning introverted farmboy trying to do good, or a PTSD stricken Batman clawing his way out of a pit of self loathing to resonate far more with them than the charming flawless Paragon of Heroes. People that thought that Superman was too unrelatable in previous incarnations, too unrealistic. Yeah, he's supposed to be the best of us, but he's also the most human of us, with all that entails. Karloff posted:
Superman only killed one person. Singular. He didn't kill the guy holding Lois hostage. This is a bit unclear, granted, but he says he didn't kill any of those people like the media is saying he did. (And also word of god, for whatever that counts)
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Nov 29, 2020 05:13
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teen titans go to the movies was a musical
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Nov 29, 2020 05:13
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How Wonderful! posted:I think it's kind of wild that there hasn't been a big superhero musical yet. I think the time is ripe. I think a huge, bombastic, sunny Squirrel Girl musical would be the bee's knees. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiMIuvZXQu4
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Nov 29, 2020 05:13
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McCloud posted:Gee, if only there was some way to divine Supermans emotions and feelings about having to kill Zod. quote:Superman only killed one person. Singular. He didn't kill the guy holding Lois hostage.
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Nov 29, 2020 05:18
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Go back in time to April 2019, catch yourself as you leave Endgame. Tell yourself "the best superhero film of 2020 will be a tie between Bloodshot and The New Mutants". Then laugh and disappear as your previous self processes that sentence.
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Nov 29, 2020 05:19
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Rev. Bleech_ posted:Go back in time to April 2019, catch yourself as you leave Endgame. Tell yourself "the best superhero film of 2020 will be a tie between Bloodshot and The New Mutants". Then laugh and disappear as your previous self processes that sentence. gently caress it, I'm counting Sonic
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Nov 29, 2020 05:20
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Retro Futurist posted:gently caress it, I'm counting Sonic has super-speed, multiple comics series one of which has extremely complicated continuity, it all checks out
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Nov 29, 2020 05:21
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Rev. Bleech_ posted:Go back in time to April 2019, catch yourself as you leave Endgame. Tell yourself "the best superhero film of 2020 will be a tie between Bloodshot and The New Mutants". Then laugh and disappear as your previous self processes that sentence. To be fair Wonder Woman is coming out this year just not in theaters. So you can just say "The best theatrical superhero film."
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Nov 29, 2020 05:28
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I've never seen much of The Brave and the Bold but it looks very charming! I also think I deliberately forgot about Turn Off the Dark.
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Nov 29, 2020 05:29
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How Wonderful! posted:I've never seen much of The Brave and the Bold but it looks very charming! I also think I deliberately forgot about Turn Off the Dark. Brave and the Bold is absolutely and utterly fantastic. It is way more lighthearted than most other versions but it leverages this very well and is able to tell genuinely heartfelt stories about love and sacrifice alongside episodes where a music man makes everyone sing songs. Its Blue Beetle, Doom Patrol and Bwana Beast episodes are all loving fantastic ways to deal with death in a kid-friendly medium without dumbing it down, and its Aquaman is far and away the best version of the character to exist. B:TAS is still my favorite but Brave and the Bold was so consistently excellent or at least entertaining that it is easily my second favorite, and the fact that it was willing to wholeheartedly embrace the parts of the DC universe that are weird and goofy is delightful.
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Nov 29, 2020 05:33
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How Wonderful! posted:I've never seen much of The Brave and the Bold but it looks very charming! It's one of the best Aquaman depictions and the closing episode is fun and touching.
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Nov 29, 2020 05:35
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Brave and the Bold also goes out like a complete champ. They knew they were canceled so they get weird with it by doing a story about Bat Mite (voiced by Paul Reubens) hating this kid friendly version of Batman and wanting a super serious series. Also they have Henry Winkler as Ambush Bug.
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Nov 29, 2020 05:41
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They really lean into it by going full-bore Toyetic (with Batman's SuperTalkingSuperSled and WinterSuit Batsuit) and making GBS threads with the formula by recasting Aquaman.
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Nov 29, 2020 05:50
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How Wonderful! posted:I think it's kind of wild that there hasn't been a big superhero musical yet. I think the time is ripe. I think a huge, bombastic, sunny Squirrel Girl musical would be the bee's knees. Holy Musical B@man is near perfect and all available on YouTube https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL96B8289ADF77A8C4 Madkal fucked around with this message at 06:56 on Nov 29, 2020 |
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Nov 29, 2020 06:25
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ImpAtom posted:To be fair Wonder Woman is coming out this year just not in theaters. Wonder Woman is also in theaters on Christmas.
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Nov 29, 2020 06:59
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This was all I ever needed to see of Turn Off the Dark. I'm good guys, thanks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RgR0-EWuNY
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Nov 29, 2020 07:08
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McCloud posted:No, the cop out would have been if there'd been some deus ex machina that removed Zod from the equation without forcing Supermans hand. Comic books are full of that kind of storytelling where the very fabric of the universe will contrive to protect the heroes morals, no matter how absurd the situation. They could have easily written the script in a way that had Zod getting sucked into the phantom zone with the rest of his cronies, but they didn't, is because they wanted to contrive an actual no-win situation for Superman. Because sometimes there is no super secret hidden option like in RPGs where everybody wins, sometimes all you have are bad options, and I think that's just as valid as having the character use some clever loophole to get Zod to surrender or depower him or whatever. I'm watching Superman. I expect him to have options that do not exist in real life. If it turns out Superman solves his problems the exact same way as The Punisher, it reduces both characters. See also: Batman killing the poo poo out of the dudes that have Martha Kent hostage. "Sometimes ya got no choice but to do a murder" is totally on brand for Wolverine. It's really dull from Superman. Because sure enough, that is the conclusion we reach in the next film too with Doomsday. It turns out it's just easier to kill dudes than literally anything else narratively. That's boring. As a matter of fact, they set up Steppenwolf to get killed too. Just, for me, "sometimes all you have are bad options" is antithetical to Superman, Cap, and arguably Spider-Man. Anybody else can do that story but those guys. Because the entire point of those guys is a rejection of that philosophy.
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Nov 29, 2020 07:37
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I wonder if Turn Of the Dark will ever get the Hamilton treatment and show up in Disney+. Or if everyone involved is just going to wisely bury it forever
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Nov 29, 2020 08:38
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcrc4VdoueERev. Bleech_ posted:Go back in time to April 2019, catch yourself as you leave Endgame. Tell yourself "the best superhero film of 2020 will be a tie between Bloodshot and The New Mutants". Then laugh and disappear as your previous self processes that sentence.  ImpAtom posted:To be fair Wonder Woman is coming out this year just not in theaters.
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Nov 29, 2020 09:45
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Madkal posted:Holy Musical B@man is near perfect and all available on YouTube I forgot about this one too! I remember whenever I read a broody Batman comic I used to think of the line "poor Master Bruce/ poor Mr. Wayne/ lonely caboose/ on a one car train."
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Nov 29, 2020 10:14
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Dumping Kryptonians into a bottomless pit is the sale as killing them.
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Nov 29, 2020 11:39
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McCloud posted:
 Totally survivable!
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Nov 29, 2020 12:06
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Alhazred posted:
Those walls were clearly not reinforced. It's fine.
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Nov 29, 2020 14:29
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