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Alhazred posted:
Right? ...right?
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Nov 29, 2020 14:55
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Alhazred posted:
That's my problem with Snyder's Superman right there; not the killing specifically, but the way everything he does is framed as this worshipful display of aggressive domination. Even if you can argue that that maybe Superman pounded that soft, squishy mortal dude through multiple walls in such a way that he survived, that's just not a thing Superman would do. That's not the way he uses his power around regular people. Reeves's Superman saved cats out of trees, and assured children that everything was going to be alright as he lifted the end of a school bus and put it back on a bridge, because he saw that they were scared and cared about what they felt. Snyder's Superman drags a ship across the ice in grim solitude, or impales semi-trucks with logs; every part of the scene is set up to display Superman's power and strength, and no care is given to the moral uses that he's putting it to or the people he's saving. When he does help people, every part of the scene he is in frames it as a terrible burden that he is grimly accepting, and not an opportunity to do good. Superman's absolute power is the absolute least interesting thing about the character; the most interesting thing is that, despite his power, he is kind and gentle and often joyous. The guy who pulps people through walls is much less interesting than the guy who could, but carefully chooses not to at every opportunity, because he doesn't think a world with people shaped holes in it is a better place. Old Kentucky Shark fucked around with this message at 15:21 on Nov 29, 2020 |
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Nov 29, 2020 15:17
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The United States posted:Birds of Prey I legit forgot that was this year, so nevermind
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Nov 29, 2020 16:53
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ImpAtom posted:Brave and the Bold is absolutely and utterly fantastic. It is way more lighthearted than most other versions but it leverages this very well and is able to tell genuinely heartfelt stories about love and sacrifice alongside episodes where a music man makes everyone sing songs. Brave and the Bold also has one of the most innuendo laden songs to appear on a kids show.
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Nov 29, 2020 17:32
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How Wonderful! posted:I think it's kind of wild that there hasn't been a big superhero musical yet. I think the time is ripe. I think a huge, bombastic, sunny Squirrel Girl musical would be the bee's knees. I would have loved to see Joss Whedon write and direct an MCU musical. The Buffy musical episode, "Once More With Feeling," is maybe my favorite hour of television of all time, even though I've generally cooled on my former Whedon fanboyism in recent years. If anyone could have knocked it out of the park, it's him. The Flash/Supergirl musical was so disappointing for me, especially with all the talented theater actors on all the Arrowverse shows. I would have greatly preferred original songs, rather than cornball stuff like "Put a Little Love in Your Heart." What a wasted opportunity. It was also an ideal chance to introduce Power Girl to the Arrowverse and have Rachel Bloom play her. She even contributed a song, but she could have been a perfect Power Girl. Retro Futurist posted:I wonder if Turn Of the Dark will ever get the Hamilton treatment and show up in Disney+. Or if everyone involved is just going to wisely bury it forever The actors who played Peter Parker (Reeve Carney) and Green Goblin (Patrick Page) in Turn Off the Dark on Broadway went on to bigger things: lead roles as Orpheus and Hades in Hadestown, which looks fantastic and has some really great songs. I'm still pissed at myself for not scoring tickets when I took my wife to New York for our tenth anniversary in 2019. We saw Hamilton, which was legendary, but for the second show, neither of us had heard of Hadestown yet, so we saw Chicago instead. Bad choice, and I even like Chicago a lot. ImpAtom posted:Brave and the Bold is absolutely and utterly fantastic. It is way more lighthearted than most other versions but it leverages this very well and is able to tell genuinely heartfelt stories about love and sacrifice alongside episodes where a music man makes everyone sing songs. That Blue Beetle episode of Brave and the Bold reduces me to tears. I haven't seen nearly enough episodes, but it's my favorite portrayal of Aquaman as well, and I still hum "Gray and Blue," the Marty Robbins-inspired song the Golden Age Vigilante sang during a badass cold open. (There's a character I'd love to see revived -- a motorcycle-riding singing cowboy actor hero, perfect for a neo-noir/Western/musical/superhero extravaganza.)
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Nov 29, 2020 18:29
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I always figured in that gif it's happening too fast but Superman is grabbing the guy, spinning, and just flying out with his own back to the wall and the guy in a chokehold or something. If we're having this argument then every version of Batman on film is a mass murderer. So is every version of Spider-Man. And most heroes. Every man involved in the hallway fight of season one of Daredevil almost certainly died from injuries sustained in it. This is a weird double standard and it makes the anti-Snyder contingent look weird by bringing it up. It's a movie, they gotta make poo poo look cool and impressive and bigger than reality or it doesn't work.
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Nov 29, 2020 19:19
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Vince MechMahon posted:I always figured in that gif it's happening too fast but Superman is grabbing the guy, spinning, and just flying out with his own back to the wall and the guy in a chokehold or something. If we're having this argument then every version of Batman on film is a mass murderer. So is every version of Spider-Man. And most heroes. Every man involved in the hallway fight of season one of Daredevil almost certainly died from injuries sustained in it. This is a weird double standard and it makes the anti-Snyder contingent look weird by bringing it up. It's a movie, they gotta make poo poo look cool and impressive and bigger than reality or it doesn't work. No he doesn't. It's hard to see in the gif but he just puts him through several walls. You can clearly see him flying straight.  Snyder's response was just "He isn't dead but he isn't a problem anymore" ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Nov 29, 2020 |
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Nov 29, 2020 19:28
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Superman's personal force field (what protects his suit from ripping) extends around that terrorist so he is protected from the impact but not the inertia. So it's like being in a car wreck.
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Nov 29, 2020 19:32
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ImpAtom posted:No he doesn't. It's hard to see in the gif but he just puts him through several walls. You can clearly see him flying straight. Then he punched through with an extended arm while holding the guy closer to him. I admit it's a dumb framing and way to show it, but I never went "oh that guys dead" more than I do in any combat scene in the Arkham games where you're crippling people and then leaving them in trash cans in an abandoned city during a horrible snow storm or whatever.
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Nov 29, 2020 19:34
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Vince MechMahon posted:Then he punched through with an extended arm while holding the guy closer to him. I admit it's a dumb framing and way to show it, but I never went "oh that guys dead" more than I do in any combat scene in the Arkham games where you're crippling people and then leaving them in trash cans in an abandoned city during a horrible snow storm or whatever. There is a significant difference in movie language between physical combat and super-speed slamming a guy through several walls. Movie language specifically evolved for non-lethal punching people in the face to be a thing even though in reality we know it would give severe brain damage. There is no double standard there because the standard is what is applied to pretty much all movies. No, it isn't realistic but the same applies to a lot of commonly applied movie language. But even that language has limits and seeing what is a regular human smashed through two brick walls by what amounts to a speeding locomotive is something that breaks that suspension of disbelief for most people. It also goes against the same movie where Batman surviving similar circumstances required both a suit of power armor and Superman to be severely weakened.
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Nov 29, 2020 19:38
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It's a superhero movie. If there's not a corpse no one died and even then they're probably still okay.
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Nov 29, 2020 19:42
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Vince MechMahon posted:It's a superhero movie. If there's not a corpse no one died and even then they're probably still okay. That doesn't really work for BvS which is specifically about the consequences of actions and the damage people like Superman can do just by existing. It literally opens with people dying or being badly injured because Superman and Zod were slamming through skyscrapers. I can agree it's probably just a badly shot scene but there is a reason it gets that attention because "Superhuman slams someone through several walls" inherently brings to mind how the film opened by specifically showing that exact action as dangerous and lethal.
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Nov 29, 2020 19:56
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ImpAtom posted:That doesn't really work for BvS which is specifically about the consequences of actions and the damage people like Superman can do just by existing. It literally opens with people dying or being badly injured because Superman and Zod were slamming through skyscrapers. Agreed. It's dumb framing. But I never once thought that specific guy was dead.
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Nov 29, 2020 19:56
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Yeah, it all depends on the context of the work. All action films take a bit of a break from reality in terms of fights etc. We are told that Daredevil doesn't kill in his series and Batman doesn't kill in the Arkham games and within the context of that work it somewhat bears it out. The Arkham games are set in a heightened, cartoonish albeit still dangerous and menacing world, in the real world what Batman does would certainly result in lethal result but in that world it doesn't because the text of the work tell us so, the fact that "Batman doesn't kill" frequently comes up. It's the same break from reality that allows Batman to climb building after building and suffer getting thrown through a brick wall by Bane and not receive any actual injury or muscular fatigue. Daredevil is less heightened but still has a pulpy air, and clearly states within the text that Daredevil doesn't kill and has not killed and therefore we accept his brutal punches don't translate into lethal results. Is that realistic? No. But neither is a blind man being able to fight crime with kung fu. It's an acceptable break from reality. MOS/Batman v Superman is also heightened (all super-hero stuff is). It still features a Batman who can take down armed militias with rope, boomerangs and fighting skills and embraces many pulpy elements, but what it does do and does a very good job at is showing how lethal that Kryptonians are, there are many very well staged scenes in MOS showing Faora just tearing through people and that big dude whose name I don't know ripping a pilot in half. I've been critical of Snyder of course, but it's clear his intent here is to make them terrifying and he achieves that very well - he shows that human bodies are weak tissue paper to a Kryptonian. So when he opens BvS showing Superman smashing the the terrorist leader in the manner that he does there's no other way to take it other than it's lethal, because that's what old Zack has so competently communicated to us previously, if he wants us to take that as non-lethal than he is working against himself, and moving in stark contrast to how he's portrayed those powers previously. Which is his prerogative, but it's no surprise people got a different impression.
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Nov 29, 2020 19:58
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Vince MechMahon posted:Then he punched through with an extended arm while holding the guy closer to him. I admit it's a dumb framing and way to show it, but I never went "oh that guys dead" more than I do in any combat scene in the Arkham games where you're crippling people and then leaving them in trash cans in an abandoned city during a horrible snow storm or whatever. tbf people do joke about the Arkham or Spider-man games being hilariously lethal-looking, but I think people also recognize it's technically the player's call to throw a manhole cover into a crowd.
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Nov 29, 2020 20:05
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superman actually had his arm out you just cant see it is handwavey headcanon not really supported by anything but also batman basically kills half the people he fights in the arkham game is such a widespread notion that its essentially an internet meme at this point so i guess i just dont agree with any of that
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Nov 29, 2020 20:08
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It's a meme because it highlights the silliness of the games, like the whole non-lethally running people over in the Batmobile. If we're meant to take it as part of the narrative that those criminals are dead because in the real world people would actually die then we must also take it as part of the narrative that Batman died when Bane threw him through a brick wall as no human could have survived that. So, I guess Batman died a third of the way through Arkham Asylum and the rest of the game and its sequels were just his...I dunno... his death dream maybe.
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Nov 29, 2020 20:17
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It's hilariously bad because the opening goes to great lengths to show us that the concept of a flying invulnerable juggernaut is terrifying in its implications and Kal-El goes on to show us that someone messing with his girlfriend results in a horrific show of power. All this "rubber walls, honestly" doesn't fly with the tone of the rest of the film. Just like we know Bats murked a dude by collapsing his neck into some floorboards or throwing a crate at him.
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Nov 29, 2020 20:20
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site posted:superman actually had his arm out you just cant see it is handwavey headcanon not really supported by anything but also batman basically kills half the people he fights in the arkham game is such a widespread notion that its essentially an internet meme at this point so i guess i just dont agree with any of that This is where I am on this issue. I feel the same about the Lois Lane hostage scene as I do about the combat in Arkham Knight: if people aren't being killed here, the creators should've done a better job presenting that because, as it stands, it's a tertiary interpretation of the events at best. This is a much more widespread problem than these two works, don't get me wrong. But just because it comes up a lot doesn't mean it's not a problem. It just means that a lot of creatives don't care enough about it.
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Nov 29, 2020 20:21
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Big Bad Voodoo Lou posted:I would have loved to see Joss Whedon write and direct an MCU musical. The Buffy musical episode, "Once More With Feeling," is maybe my favorite hour of television of all time, even though I've generally cooled on my former Whedon fanboyism in recent years. If anyone could have knocked it out of the park, it's him. Hadestown took awhile to grow on me but you should check it out, even if you have to settle for a shaky youtube camrip or whatever. Also, yes, Rachel Bloom would be a fantastic Power Girl and probably a really really good Jen Walters as well.
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Nov 29, 2020 20:23
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Karloff posted:It's a meme because it highlights the silliness of the games, like the whole non-lethally running people over in the Batmobile. If we're meant to take it as part of the narrative that those criminals are dead because in the real world people would actually die then we must also take it as part of the narrative that Batman died when Bane threw him through a brick wall as no human could have survived that. So, I guess Batman died a third of the way through Arkham Asylum and the rest of the game and its sequels were just his...I dunno... his death dream maybe. i think it actually highlights how dumb an idea it was to let you watch batman shatter someones bones in x-ray like its loving mortal kombat and run over people in a jet powered car, and "you pointed out this dumb thing but what about this other dumb thing" is not the winning argument you think it is. They can in fact, both be dumb site fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Nov 29, 2020 |
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Nov 29, 2020 20:49
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mycot posted:tbf people do joke about the Arkham or Spider-man games being hilariously lethal-looking, but I think people also recognize it's technically the player's call to throw a manhole cover into a crowd. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8HAOF0_BR4 that said I don't remember if Superman making any effort at all not to murder people is ever actually addressed, outside of his big man yell when he executes Zod whoever said he's just down with murder after the first movie might have nailed it I dunno I did a lot of drinking during Batman vs Superman
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Nov 29, 2020 20:51
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Its been awhile but I think I interpreted Snyder's Superman as being more bothered that he killed the other last Kryptonian rather than that he killed anyone. I also definitely thought he killed that guy who had Lois.
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Nov 29, 2020 20:57
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mycot posted:tbf people do joke about the Arkham or Spider-man games being hilariously lethal-looking, but I think people also recognize it's technically the player's call to throw a manhole cover into a crowd.
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Nov 29, 2020 20:59
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site posted:i think it actually highlights how dumb an idea it was to let you watch batman shatter someones bones in x-ray like its loving mortal kombat and run over people in a jet powered car, and "you pointed out this dumb thing but what about this other dumb thing" is not the winning argument you think it is. They can in fact, both be dumb I don't recall saying it was necessarily a good approach by the creators, or not worthy of criticism, or that it's not dumb. It absolutely should be criticised, and the aforementioned memes are one way of doing it. BUT what I am saying is that in the context of the text as presented Batman did not kill them, and saying he did because in the real world they would be dead is dumb when the games clearly do not take place in anything approaching the real world, as is clear by almost everything that happens in them. Different fictional worlds create different standards for reality depending on what they establish, the Arkham games established many times over that Batman can beat people up viciously and they survive it. Is that realistic? No. Is it dumb? In many cases, yes. But it's what is presented. BvS/MOS presented a fictional world where humans are absolutely and easily decimated by Kryptonians, breaking from that establishment for one scene therefore is confusing to the audience.
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Nov 29, 2020 21:11
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Except...the whole reason the "Batman is killing people in the arkham games" is a thing is because the way it is presented belies the idea that he is not killing them
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Nov 29, 2020 21:21
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site posted:Except...the whole reason the "Batman is killing people in the arkham games" is a thing is because the way it is presented belies the idea that he is not killing them Fair, though I'd argue if there's a spectrum of on-screen violence with for example Looney Tunes at one end where having an anvil dropping on your head causes no lasting ill effects, and The Wire or something at the other end where getting beat up is horrific and real and lethal, then the Arkham games lie somewhere in the middle, people still get killed, but seem to be more resistant to physical trauma, and can get beat up but not suffer too many ill effects. It becomes a problem when the rules established don't remain consistent, which I think the Arkham games did begin to suffer from when Arkham Knight rolled around.
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Nov 29, 2020 21:37
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site posted:Except...the whole reason the "Batman is killing people in the arkham games" is a thing is because the way it is presented belies the idea that he is not killing them I mean the game actually does go out of its way to deny this. Anyone knocked out can be examined to show they are still alive, you regularly encounter guys you previously beat up, etc, etc. The primary point of "Batman is killing people" is "Wow, slamming a heavy box into someone's head sure looks lethal" rather than the game presenting it that way.
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Nov 29, 2020 21:45
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ImpAtom posted:I mean the game actually does go out of its way to deny this. Anyone knocked out can be examined to show they are still alive, you regularly encounter guys you previously beat up, etc, etc. The primary point of "Batman is killing people" is "Wow, slamming a heavy box into someone's head sure looks lethal" rather than the game presenting it that way. That's...specifically the point?? That the game tries to tell you a dude is only unconscious after you break their neck or run them over with a 2 ton jet powered car and it's entirely unconvincing because you just watched Batman do it
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Nov 29, 2020 21:52
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I think the thing the Lois rescue scene displayed to me was Superman's utter disregard for everyone but his girlfriend. After all, he shows up instantly when she was about to die, so he's clearly keeping tabs on her all the time with super-hearing. But he's cool with Jimmy Olson dying a few seconds earlier. No skin off his nose. Wait til Lois is threatened, you can get in another bite of sandwich. Hell, you can take it a step further too. Jimmy is a friend and coworker of Lois, and Superman doesn't think for a second that watching him brutally die right in front of her isn't good for Lois' mental well being. Because he doesn't even care about Lois in that moment! He only cares about his access to Lois. theironjef fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Nov 29, 2020 |
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Nov 29, 2020 21:53
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The Batmobile only runs over people when the physics glitch. Usually it launches them at dangerous velocities into building facades.
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Nov 29, 2020 22:06
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Ah yeah lol, my bad
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Nov 29, 2020 22:16
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Rhyno posted:Superman's personal force field (what protects his suit from ripping) extends around that terrorist so he is protected from the impact but not the inertia. This is canon as per Lois & Clark. 
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Nov 29, 2020 22:39
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https://twitter.com/Marvel/status/1333078267302187009 Marvel created a new logo treatment for the Disney+ version of Black Panther.
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Nov 29, 2020 23:24
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muscles like this! posted:https://twitter.com/Marvel/status/1333078267302187009 Man all that makes me do is think how depressing it is he died so young and with Marvel Movies being what was getting the most attention. He really felt like someone who could have done some amazing poo poo if Cancer didn't decide to take him while inexplicably letting Rush Limbaugh continue to exist.
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Nov 29, 2020 23:46
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muscles like this! posted:https://twitter.com/Marvel/status/1333078267302187009 It just makes me so so sad. Too young for, by all appearances, a really kind guy.
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Nov 30, 2020 00:49
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On the subject of superheroes definitely not murdering people https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98UpAhyD3wc
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Nov 30, 2020 00:50
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I recently saw this two part video series on the Snyder ouvre which I thought was pretty good. https://youtu.be/DOd6ZYZE5uA https://youtu.be/gY7EnEuqb7M It's pretty long, but it does cover multiple movies. It discusses a number of the topics that just came up.
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Nov 30, 2020 03:52
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Lunatic Sledge posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8HAOF0_BR4 In Spider-man 2 you can piledrive someone off the empire state building. For reference, if you let spidey fall that far in-game he dies, and that's with his superpowers and without landing head first. But you know, it's a video game.
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Nov 30, 2020 04:23
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FilthyImp posted:It's amazingly earnest and completely shied away from that "The Batman Broods Alone :scowl:" thing that he's known for. And yeah Aquaman is great https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSdEZbJCiDQ It's weird how we all treat Aquaman as a joke and yet since the 00s most of his depictions have been great
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Nov 30, 2020 05:25
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