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I read Wizard Knight and liked it.
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Dec 11, 2020 04:40
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Long is my favorite of the Suns, but I felt the same way on the first read. Tunnels again!? On rereads the pacing smooths out and those sections are way more compelling. With Wolfe the first read is always the least fruitful.
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Dec 11, 2020 17:18
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It all pays off in Short Sun.
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Dec 11, 2020 17:23
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CommonShore posted:I read Wizard Knight and liked it. Huh, normally I can find more to argue with in a TED talk
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Dec 11, 2020 18:49
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Osmosisch posted:Huh, normally I can find more to argue with in a TED talk One of the things I find with Wolfe is I often have this period after finishing one of his books (I've also read Peace in the last few months) where I want to roll it around in my head, but then I move on to other things before posting. So this time I wanted to  .What's the standard reading of The Wizard Knight? That the narrator is writing to Ben from the afterlife or something?
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Dec 11, 2020 18:57
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CommonShore posted:One of the things I find with Wolfe is I often have this period after finishing one of his books (I've also read Peace in the last few months) where I want to roll it around in my head, but then I move on to other things before posting. So this time I wanted to Yeah I wasn't complaining, sorry if that wasn't clear, I'm just used to such posts getting followed by the TED talk thanks. I definitely recognize wanting to chew on a book after reading. One of the reasons I enjoy keeping track of my reads on Goodreads is that it makes it really easy to look at other people's reviews, which helps me contrast my own opinions. There's not as much analysis of Wizard Knight as some of Wolfe's other works, and I don't think there's any particular consensus about whether Able is dead, or even really Able (Abel?) Bit instead Berthold's brother who is confused by his bowstring's memories. Like most Wolfe, it's left to the reader. Osmosisch fucked around with this message at 11:33 on Feb 2, 2022 |
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Dec 11, 2020 20:23
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Osmosisch posted:Yeah I wasn't complaining, sorry if that wasn't clear, I'm just used to such posts getting followed by the TED talk thanks. Here is Aramini’s take on it: a jungian dream in which the reality is actually the dreams communicated through the umbilical cord of parka’s boy string connecting him to mother, though really he is just a dream sent to her after he is absorbed by his chimeric twin, the b characters. Able was supposed to be named after being able to be born after a difficult pregnancy, but on the last pages he declares I’m not able and returns to bold “birthhold” what was lost in the pond at the start. The events are repeated: insemination like in the cave (plant a seed) doubling, being transported after fighting over food, dying - reset. Captain gets smashed in head over birth, next c character has a scar on his head. Gilling gets a helm on seven mules, able gets a helm on seven mules. Same events over and over culminating in can’t breath (even toug can’t talk in aelf rice) and the cloud dragon ge fights at the end is cloud - jungian symbol of endurance - has to stop enduring. Dreams of pregnancy and swimming with red and silver fish all sexual images, giant sperm walking around, idnn a chalice into which sperm poured, chalice morcaine drinks from in phantom knight scene etc etc etc https://pastebin.com/SHEVjTbR Able is the dream Michael sends to the mother who never knew him, a chimeric twin eaten by the b brother , and these dreams of the collective unconscious.
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Dec 13, 2020 03:30
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Aramini's takes make me feel like an idiot, I don't even know if they're right or wrong, but they're so drat compelling.
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Dec 13, 2020 05:46
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I have the opposite reaction to Aramini, I feel like he's full of poo poo but I have no idea how I'd demonstrate him right or wrong, but I know the GWLP guys' take on Fifth Head makes far more sense than anything he came up with.
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Dec 13, 2020 05:56
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Nakar posted:I have the opposite reaction to Aramini, I feel like he's full of poo poo but I have no idea how I'd demonstrate him right or wrong, but I know the GWLP guys' take on Fifth Head makes far more sense than anything he came up with. Oh,I'm pretty with you there, sometimes, most of the time, I'm pretty sure he's so far between the lines with his reading that he misses the actual text on the page, but I still find it interesting to listen to. Compare that to Borski whose not off in the corner doing a charlie day connecting all the non existent dots together. Gene wolfe literary podcast is still the exemplary podcast in my opinion, always have some great insight, and the dude's clearly have some real intellect to back them up. Elder Sign is also great if you guys haven't listened to it. I always felt Alzabo Soup was a little trite, just a recap with some weird and not very convincing speculation.I am sort of excited to see how they read Long sun now that they've dropped the whole first read BS ReReading Wolfe is fun just to see what the lad's and Lasse's on the Urth list got up to back in the day but I find a lot of their theories kind of out there. I have this feeling that a lot of this speculation has gotten so far into the weeds that they've completly forgot that Wolfe wrote actual narratives for his works, and they've just discarded it all to go off onto their Gnostic, Allegorical, Time Travel, Multiple dimension, what have you theories.
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Dec 13, 2020 06:08
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every time I see any psychoanalytical reading like that I go  e. I haven't gotten into the weeds of Wolfe that way - secondary texts etc - but the only reason to pull something like the Jungian collective unconscious into a reading of a text is if there's some evidence that Wolfe was into that stuff. Any other use of that kind of material to produce a reading is tautological nonsense.
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Dec 13, 2020 06:16
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CommonShore posted:every time I see any psychoanalytical reading like that I go Yes Wolfe write of soil and climate in 2002 which featured a jungian therapist as the main character in jail, same time he wrote wizard knight.
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Dec 13, 2020 14:09
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Nakar posted:I have the opposite reaction to Aramini, I feel like he's full of poo poo but I have no idea how I'd demonstrate him right or wrong, but I know the GWLP guys' take on Fifth Head makes far more sense than anything he came up with. Wolfe has interviews that talk about the aliens in Fifth Head and Marsch. The dudes on GWLP says there are no aliens any more in their reading . They aren’t reading the book Wolfe wrote.
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Dec 13, 2020 14:12
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Gaius Marius posted:Oh,I'm pretty with you there, sometimes, most of the time, I'm pretty sure he's so far between the lines with his reading that he misses the actual text on the page, but I still find it interesting to listen to. Compare that to Borski whose not off in the corner doing a charlie day connecting all the non existent dots together. Alzabo soup are morons
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Dec 13, 2020 14:13
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Gaius Marius posted:Oh,I'm pretty with you there, sometimes, most of the time, I'm pretty sure he's so far between the lines with his reading that he misses the actual text on the page, but I still find it interesting to listen to. Compare that to Borski whose not off in the corner doing a charlie day connecting all the non existent dots together. Rereading Wolfe free associates too much. Stuff like first Severian as hethor is bullshit.,
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Dec 13, 2020 14:16
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Nakar posted:I have the opposite reaction to Aramini, I feel like he's full of poo poo but I have no idea how I'd demonstrate him right or wrong, but I know the GWLP guys' take on Fifth Head makes far more sense than anything he came up with. A Lawrence person interview corroborating the position Aramini takes LP: "'A Story,' by John V. Marsch." GW: "'A Story,' by John V. Marsch," yes, which is not actually written by John V. Marsch, but by the shadowchild who has replaced John V. Marsch. (laughs) That's New Wave. But belonging to a literary movement doesn't consist so much in using a certain set of techniques, as it consists in running with a certain set of people, and only to a very small degree did I run with that set of people. So as I said, I would be very peripheral as a New Wave writer. Then there is a different interview where Wolfe says an abo takes the place of Marsch (the standard reading) ... gwlp says there are no more living aliens. The standard reading is abo takes the place of Marsch and the other people are ambiguous, the aramini reading that the Abos took over ste croix and that’s why no new buildings on 200 years, but Marsch is a shadowchild, who is primarily a mental construct. So even if Wolfe is waffling in those interviews, there are aliens in fifth head in present day and GWLP says there aren’t??? That’s a lot of useless Chekhov’s guns on the mantle.
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Dec 13, 2020 14:31
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Gaius Marius posted:Oh,I'm pretty with you there, sometimes, most of the time, I'm pretty sure he's so far between the lines with his reading that he misses the actual text on the page, but I still find it interesting to listen to. Compare that to Borski whose not off in the corner doing a charlie day connecting all the non existent dots together. Reading the primary Wolfe is better than most of the commentary. Some of it is good and brings understanding, but one gets the sense the Alzabo guys are just social justice puritans judging in ways Wolfe never believed and rereading Wolfe sometimes don’t want to understand but instead just confuse themselves more and more with unlikely theories. Do the readings add anything to character or not? Do they add anything to understanding? felicibusbrevis fucked around with this message at 14:52 on Dec 13, 2020 |
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Dec 13, 2020 14:44
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felicibusbrevis posted:So even if Wolfe is waffling in those interviews, there are aliens in fifth head in present day and GWLP says there aren’t??? That’s a lot of useless Chekhov’s guns on the mantle. I don't love Peace because of whatever its "answer" is (and I don't know that I agree with people on that anyway), I love it because of what it's saying and how it says it. If knowing or not knowing the answer does nothing for my enjoyment of Short Sun, then it doesn't matter what Wolfe's intended answer was. If knowing, or thinking I know, enhances the reading, I'm going to be understandably skeptical of an interpretation that has to reach beyond the text to support itself and which makes the work less interesting.
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Dec 13, 2020 20:17
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felicibusbrevis posted:Alzabo soup are morons Dang, that's quite the series of aggro posts.
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Dec 13, 2020 20:29
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Nakar posted:The interpretation makes sense, fits the text, is interesting on a more general level than a mere genre level, and doesn't need to pull from extratextual sources (which I don't fully trust and never have with pretty much any creator). Even if you were to definitively prove to me that Wolfe's books are hyper-complex referential puzzleboxes and that Short Sun is, per authorial intention, actually about the biological process of human-tree hybridization or whatever the gently caress Aramini states (and he has claimed that Wolfe kinda-sorta supported this notion in a reply to a Christmas card, of all things), that isn't what I think is compelling or interesting about Short Sun and I will happily ignore those intentions in favor of reading the books and enjoying the interpretation I find more meaningful and compelling. I think there are other themes of denial, redemption, and the divine plan as a repurposing of Typhon and the hiero’s schemes in Aramini’s reading that make it about more than the puzzle and thematically interesting. I don’t know that these readings have to go beyond the text either, really.
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Dec 13, 2020 21:05
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Nakar posted:The interpretation makes sense, fits the text, is interesting on a more general level than a mere genre level, and doesn't need to pull from extratextual sources (which I don't fully trust and never have with pretty much any creator). Even if you were to definitively prove to me that Wolfe's books are hyper-complex referential puzzleboxes and that Short Sun is, per authorial intention, actually about the biological process of human-tree hybridization or whatever the gently caress Aramini states (and he has claimed that Wolfe kinda-sorta supported this notion in a reply to a Christmas card, of all things), that isn't what I think is compelling or interesting about Short Sun and I will happily ignore those intentions in favor of reading the books and enjoying the interpretation I find more meaningful and compelling. Then we probably shouldn’t talk about right or wrong, but compelling then. The most interesting reading goes. Consensus will be pretty unstable on that criteria.
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Dec 13, 2020 21:12
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I listened to Alzabo Soup entire series about Sorcerer's House and it felt lika waste of time. They say things I already figured out and if you want deeper analisys - its not there. GWLP is a little dry in comparison but they dig deep.
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Dec 14, 2020 13:11
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Sekenr posted:I listened to Alzabo Soup entire series about Sorcerer's House and it felt lika waste of time. They say things I already figured out and if you want deeper analisys - its not there. GWLP is a little dry in comparison but they dig deep. Spoilers for sorcerers house It should be clear by now whose readings I tend to like. Aramini’s reading I think is good: the Lamia of Corinth, a Greek blood sucker with the power to create a house and servants as an illusion to drain her victims, is actually what the Greek “torpedo” Nicholas and lupine are, and the gold Corinthian coin that doris sees as male and someone else as female linking the Lamia to the gold artifacts in the text. In myth Apollonius thwarted the Lamia but in this book she wins and strangles Apollonius, his stand in. She is “goldwyrm” the sorcerer as well. Lamia was associated with a stench and both lupine and Nicholas the Butler trapped in the trunk smell bad. The twins in the house are an illusion reflecting Bax’s internal state so bax is basically getting conned by two house spirits (the kikimora is also involved). felicibusbrevis fucked around with this message at 15:29 on Dec 14, 2020 |
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Dec 14, 2020 15:22
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Sekenr posted:I listened to Alzabo Soup entire series about Sorcerer's House and it felt lika waste of time. They say things I already figured out and if you want deeper analisys - its not there. GWLP is a little dry in comparison but they dig deep. gwlp is so much better. The only thing I haven’t been happy about was their Fifth Head take with them. Veil’s hypothesis and the ambiguous humanity of the people on ste croix are palpable artifacts of the text. felicibusbrevis fucked around with this message at 15:31 on Dec 14, 2020 |
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Dec 14, 2020 15:24
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felicibusbrevis posted:gwlp is so much better. The only thing I haven’t been happy about was their Fifth Head take with them. Veil’s hypothesis and the ambiguous humanity of the people on ste croix are palpable artifacts of the text. They may have come down too hard on "it's definitely this way," but the reading they point out is a valid perspective. This can be true even taking into account Wolfe's interview answers: VRT identifies as Annese quite strongly, seeing in his supposed native ancestry a narrative of defiance and non-dependence on the colonizing English-speakers that is not present in the beaten-down, economically marginalized French-speaking human population. The Free People could as much be a mode of thinking or a way of life; possibly there are French colonists who live out back of beyond in a harsh but independent lifestyle. Perhaps they think they are Annese, or identify as such for political reasons. VRT may well have dwelled among them multiple times in his life, or at least wished such a people did exist and realized that living that way was possible from his mother. He could very easily be, metaphorically, a shadow child or native who has replaced Marsch, even if he did so through entirely human means and only ever believed he was Annese. His identity is political as much as it is biological, and the two are entirely indistinguishable per Veil. I think the textual support for this is there, and GWLP pointed much of it out. What you see in the narrative is based on what you're expecting to see, but in the end, they arguably reach the same tragic place.
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Dec 14, 2020 19:29
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felicibusbrevis posted:Spoilers for sorcerers house It should be clear by now whose readings I tend to like. Aramini’s reading I think is good: the Lamia of Corinth, a Greek blood sucker with the power to create a house and servants as an illusion to drain her victims, is actually what the Greek “torpedo” Nicholas and lupine are, and the gold Corinthian coin that doris sees as male and someone else as female linking the Lamia to the gold artifacts in the text. In myth Apollonius thwarted the Lamia but in this book she wins and strangles Apollonius, his stand in. She is “goldwyrm” the sorcerer as well. Lamia was associated with a stench and both lupine and Nicholas the Butler trapped in the trunk smell bad. The twins in the house are an illusion reflecting Bax’s internal state so bax is basically getting conned by two house spirits (the kikimora is also involved). I tend to agree with Aramini here simply because he at least explains the coins, all other takes I've seen tend to ignore them, pat themselves on the back and call it a day (didn't hear GWLP take yet), which IMO should not be done considering how much attention is given to them in the text, they have to be significant somehow. E: also, GWLP is good because they actually invited Aramini to talk to them at least once, I hope there is more in the future.
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Dec 15, 2020 07:28
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felicibusbrevis posted:Alzabo soup are morons hell yeah I'm glad we get to see Aramini unchained here on something awful you ARE aramini right GWLP is great but their ultimate takeaway that "there are no aliens in Fifth Head" is just weird and totally misses the point and text and I was quite disappointed. its cowardly even. poo poo like the tree reaching out and the doubled eyes makes zero sense in that interpretation
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Dec 15, 2020 07:29
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Finished Long Sun and...eh. Short Sun might change my opinion of it someday but overall it was just way, way too long-winded and expository for my taste.
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Dec 15, 2020 18:53
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MeatwadIsGod posted:Finished Long Sun and...eh. Short Sun might change my opinion of it someday but overall it was just way, way too long-winded and expository for my taste. Long Sun has a really cool setting but I always got dragged down by how fast/slow it was. Bizzare pacing, the tunnels seem to go on forever and then by the fourth books things are moving so fast it's hard to keep up. Short Sun does a lot to make it better in retrospect
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Dec 16, 2020 07:33
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Might as well continue the Aggro streak. Man of all the things I see bandied around, Gaiman’s how to read Wolfe essay gets brought up way too much. Wolves in the books wooooooooooo. Limited utility and even more limited cleverness.
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Dec 18, 2020 21:35
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felicibusbrevis posted:Might as well continue the Aggro streak. Man of all the things I see bandied around, Gaiman’s how to read Wolfe essay gets brought up way too much. Wolves in the books wooooooooooo. Limited utility and even more limited cleverness.
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Dec 18, 2020 22:23
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Major Long Sun spoilers When I realized that Silk was a genetically engineered clone of Typhon, I thought the name Silk was a play on Satin being so close to Satan. Although that might be too corny of a name pun for Wolfe, I dunno.
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Dec 19, 2020 00:32
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MeatwadIsGod posted:Major Long Sun spoilers I don't know if you're right but a pun being too corny is never a good reason to assume Wolfe didn't make it.
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Dec 19, 2020 03:04
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felicibusbrevis posted:Might as well continue the Aggro streak. Man of all the things I see bandied around, Gaiman’s how to read Wolfe essay gets brought up way too much. Wolves in the books wooooooooooo. Limited utility and even more limited cleverness. for someone who loves Wolfe and even collaborated with him I get the sense that Gaiman really does not understand the way Wolfe wrote at all this may be my general anti-Gaiman bias speaking tho
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Dec 19, 2020 04:26
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my bony fealty posted:for someone who loves Wolfe and even collaborated with him I get the sense that Gaiman really does not understand the way Wolfe wrote at all You are definitely right. Gaiman is a pleb.
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Dec 19, 2020 12:28
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Reddit post with a pretty cool executioner's sword, aka Terminus Est:
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Dec 27, 2020 22:38
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So what something you would point out to someone who had just finished reading Urth of the New Sun?
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Jan 7, 2021 05:28
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CommonShore posted:So what something you would point out to someone who had just finished reading Urth of the New Sun? He definitely dies at least once, specifically when he falls down the stairs/ladder on the ship.
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Jan 7, 2021 05:41
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CommonShore posted:So what something you would point out to someone who had just finished reading Urth of the New Sun? read the part again about how he thinks he sees his own face in the crowd at the inn when zombie guy is busting in with an axe some version of Severian travels through time/different iterations of the universe observing his own life!
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Jan 10, 2021 07:19
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my bony fealty posted:read the part again about how he thinks he sees his own face in the crowd at the inn when zombie guy is busting in with an axe Oh yeah right - I caught that but forgot about it when he didn't pick it up again later
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Jan 10, 2021 15:38
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