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Cybernetic Vermin posted:otoh arguments of this form are always pretty dubious too, if we assume that they can do anything they want they can cut social programs already, and if we assume that "we" have some power over things, letting them cut social programs in exchange is just assuming our own incompetence. I guess my argument is to stay noided
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Dec 23, 2020 19:50
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Roosevelt posted:i just read about all the crooks trump pardoned yesterday. duncan hunter of all people. duncan hunter but NOT HIS WIFE, who was more cooperative and helped the cops out first and also went to prison. lmao its incredible
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Dec 23, 2020 19:51
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Cybernetic Vermin posted:otoh arguments of this form are always pretty dubious too, if we assume that they can do anything they want they can cut social programs already, and if we assume that "we" have some power over things, letting them cut social programs in exchange is just assuming our own incompetence. A cool thing about the stimulus checks is that they show UBI to be politically possible if you squint a bit. Obviously they are tiny but they've been massively popular still! And while it's true that many social programs need to be expanded, UBI reduces the human cost of them not being in place for many people, along with its positive impacts on labor relations. IMO any actually possible welfare state in the foreseeable future would benefit from some form of UBI, to paper over the gaps where state services don't work or aren't ideally targeted for some people. It's interesting to think of it in relation to SNAP, which is often critized for being patronising.
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Dec 23, 2020 19:54
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pointsofdata posted:IMO any actually possible welfare state in the foreseeable future would benefit from some form of UBI, to paper over the gaps where state services don't work or aren't ideally targeted for some people. Extremely, hideously wrong. Saying it means you've either not put thought into it, or are just extremely bigoted against disabled people. UBI implemented badly is a landlord subsidy, and papering over the cracks means that you get to tell the more disadvantaged people the system hasn't abandoned them while not giving a poo poo. It also means any non-UBI support systems get on the chopping block during austerity immediately. You're not papering over gaps in the system you're papering over the people you don't care about.
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Dec 23, 2020 20:19
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endlessmonotony posted:It also means any non-UBI support systems get on the chopping block during austerity immediately. yeah this is the really nasty part "well we give you a thousand dollars! a month now, so obviously you don't need medicaid/food stamps/rent assistance/day care subsidies/wheelchair buses/etc. have some ~~personal responsibility~~ and figure it out for yourself!!"
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Dec 23, 2020 21:08
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It also interacts really nastily with people who are discouraged from seeking care due to mental illness and/or society being poo poo, and with people who aren't aware what care they need. And the cost for things will adjust to everyone having extra money now, fairly inevitably. It'll lead to "food or insulin?" again.
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Dec 23, 2020 21:13
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https://twitter.com/RachelBitecofer/status/1341569428958425089 lol of course she’s lincoln project
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Dec 23, 2020 21:37
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Sagebrush posted:yeah this is the really nasty part this is why Nixon was for it. well that and it would be easier to whittle down one program bit by bit, rather than a dozen separate ones
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Dec 23, 2020 21:41
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endlessmonotony posted:Extremely, hideously wrong. Saying it means you've either not put thought into it, or are just extremely bigoted against disabled people. it's not for disability support etc - of course they require dedicated services and resources. it's for the things which are beyond the services the government provides, to make sure that everyone in society can have a decent level of income. there's not a government program to let you go to a restaurant, or take a holiday, or just take some time off work, for most people, or maybe you want to go see a different doctor or get legal advice from someone other that the state's choice.
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Dec 23, 2020 21:49
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america doesn’t need ubi you can just work for uber! - pete buttegig probably
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Dec 23, 2020 21:51
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i swear someone posted one of those nuclear-take op-eds that said uber was the modern UBI, either itt or the tech bubble thread
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Dec 23, 2020 22:02
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oh if we do something good then the gop will do bad things may as well not do the good thing at all
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Dec 23, 2020 22:41
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PIZZA.BAT posted:oh if we do something good then the gop will do bad things may as well not do the good thing at all Also just not doing good things ourselves isn’t enough. If anybody else tries to do good things we must prevent them from doing so and actually if you try to do good things it’s not going to work and you are stupid and must hate people.
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Dec 23, 2020 22:54
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tk posted:Also just not doing good things ourselves isn’t enough. If anybody else tries to do good things we must prevent them from doing so and actually if you try to do good things it’s not going to work and you are stupid and must hate people.
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Dec 23, 2020 23:06
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tk posted:Also just not doing good things ourselves isn’t enough. If anybody else tries to do good things we must prevent them from doing so and actually if you try to do good things it’s not going to work and you are stupid and must hate people. We must do bad things because they're less bad than the things the others would do and that's why we're net good even if doing nothing would help more. Jesus loving christ some of y'all understand systems real poorly for nerds. Look at what happens to the economy with UBI and extrapolate it to conditions for the worse-off. UBI is a bad idea except when used like in the EU and it's still dangerous here especially if it's big enough for people to live on.
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Dec 23, 2020 23:08
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And I mean the real economy not the one the political classes keep imagining. Everyone having more money available changes the expectations on how people spend and some people's lives are a lot more expensive to live than other people's.
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Dec 23, 2020 23:12
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doing nothing would in fact not help more sorry for your incorrect opinions on UBI
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Dec 23, 2020 23:35
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infernal machines posted:i swear someone posted one of those nuclear-take op-eds that said uber was the modern UBI, either itt or the tech bubble thread there's definitely a tweet going around that says something like "isn't it great that we have uber as a privately funded safety net before the government safety net"
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Dec 23, 2020 23:38
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maybe that's what i'm thinking of. i could have sworn there was a financial post or some such op-ed too, but who knows
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Dec 23, 2020 23:39
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eschaton posted:doing nothing would in fact not help more It's a subsidy for landlords in most forms. Once you add in rent control, free food and free healthcare it's suddenly functional but by that point what do you need it for.
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Dec 23, 2020 23:42
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endlessmonotony posted:We must do bad things because they're less bad than the things the others would do and that's why we're net good even if doing nothing would help more. Can you point out where I said we should do a “bad thing” because it’s “less bad” than things others would do? I know it’s harder to win arguments if you can’t start out by telling people what they actually meant, but let’s try I think it might lead to an actual conversation.
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Dec 23, 2020 23:44
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tk posted:Can you point out where I said we should do a “bad thing” because it’s “less bad” than things others would do? I know it’s harder to win arguments if you can’t start out by telling people what they actually meant, but let’s try I think it might lead to an actual conversation. You're defining UBI as a good thing completely overlooking the massive problems it has, and if you're not going to do something else there's no conversation to be had.
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Dec 23, 2020 23:47
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Giving people money isn't a good thing if all it results in is stores changing the number on price tags to match the new available money.
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Dec 23, 2020 23:49
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And if you assume anything else, my guess is that you think supply and demand has anything at all to do with the situation, rather than rentiers extracting every possible cent they can by forming an informal cartel and withholding access to essentials until they have all your money.
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Dec 23, 2020 23:52
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living up to your username i see
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Dec 23, 2020 23:53
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PIZZA.BAT posted:living up to your username i see Every post a perfect post/username combo. I can do this forever it doesn't feel like anything to do it all day long, every day.
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Dec 23, 2020 23:54
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establishing without a doubt that to be well off we need to be protected by a vast bulwark of extremely poor people keeping prices down.
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Dec 23, 2020 23:55
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What we need to do is to make it illegal to be a private landlord. That's the problem. UBI's just a way to give people checks for $X and see their living expenses increase by $X and have fifty billion op-eds calling disabled people ungrateful for needing more aid than that $X can buy. The EU version is different only because it makes the borders more porous for unemployed and disabled people, thus improving freedom of movement.
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Dec 24, 2020 00:02
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endlessmonotony posted:You're defining UBI as a good thing completely overlooking the massive problems it has, and if you're not going to do something else there's no conversation to be had. I never defined UBI as a good thing you're making poo poo up.
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Dec 24, 2020 00:04
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tk posted:I never defined UBI as a good thing you're making poo poo up. Okay well so much for wanting a conversation then.
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Dec 24, 2020 00:07
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endlessmonotony posted:You're defining UBI as a good thing completely overlooking the massive problems it has, and if you're not going to do something else there's no conversation to be had. your argument is that ubi is bad because it would inevitably lead to cuts in other programs is one hell of a take if we can’t add any more entitlements because then other entitlements will be taken away, we might as well not try anything ever
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Dec 24, 2020 00:14
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EIDE Van Hagar posted:your argument is that ubi is bad because it would inevitably lead to cuts in other programs is one hell of a take It's a downside, but not even the primary downside. The primary downside is people trying to live on it without knowing they should get help. Obviously, barely meaningful in the USA, because USA #1. But UBI without rent control is just a landlord subsidy, and lol rent control in the US.
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Dec 24, 2020 00:19
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endlessmonotony posted:Every post a perfect post/username combo. hell yeaj
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Dec 24, 2020 00:21
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endlessmonotony posted:What we need to do is to make it illegal to be a private landlord. That's the problem. lmao ok you’re just loving with us now right
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Dec 24, 2020 00:40
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EIDE Van Hagar posted:lmao ok you’re just loving with us now Real solutions are impossible, so half-assed non-solutions that will just end up making the rich richer is all we have huh. Yup that sums up UBI.
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Dec 24, 2020 00:42
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endlessmonotony posted:Real solutions are impossible, so half-assed non-solutions that will just end up making the rich richer is all we have huh. what is even the “solution” that you are proposing here? abolishing provate ownership of real estate? making all rental properties state owned? how exactly do you propose to so this? fundamentally, ubi is just shifting the inflection point for taxes. there are already people who pay no tax and get subsidies. the us government has the power of taxation and there is legal precedent for people paying zero or even negative taxes. “abolish private landlords” is just such a fantastically naive idea that i hardly know where to start. you’d be taking away private property rights from people against centuries of common law precedent. you are not making realistic suggestions.
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Dec 24, 2020 00:49
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i cannot envision any way in which being able to live where land is cheap instead of being required to live close to employment would ever change the rental calculus
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Dec 24, 2020 00:54
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i just had an actual day out in society for the first time in ten months downtown denver looks like a war zone the trains just don't run regularly. it comes when it comes. oh and they're 11 bucks for a day pass now vs $5.90 in february. nobody is wearing masks if you count chinstrappers and dicknosers as non wearers unhomed people desperately in need of care everywhere came 6" from getting hit by a car when i was crossing at a white light got to see a fistfight on a train for absolutely no reason at all back to being a hermit. gently caress the outside world
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Dec 24, 2020 00:58
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EIDE Van Hagar posted:making all rental properties state owned? Yes. Even just strict rent control could salvage UBI, but optimally go straight to "only the state is allowed to rent out living spaces". EIDE Van Hagar posted:fundamentally, ubi is just shifting the inflection point for taxes. there are already people who pay no tax and get subsidies. the us government has the power of taxation and there is legal precedent for people paying zero or even negative taxes. Fundamentally UBI is doing nothing because the costs of living will increase to match it. EIDE Van Hagar posted:you are not making realistic suggestions. If we're going by what people will accept as realistic, I'd go with "do absolutely nothing worthwhile with my forum posting". Oh wait.
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Dec 24, 2020 01:02
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"full communism now" is fun to argue on the internet, but it signals you're not having a serious discussion, one that is even in conversation with reality
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Dec 24, 2020 01:07
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