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Darko posted:People seem to feel the same way about Snyder movies not doing what they want superhero movies to do, and I dont get it. We have concurrent DC animated movies revamping the comics, who gives a flying gently caress if you have that too? Then I realized they probably never read a comic or watched those and it makes sense. People want big budget movies, not animated movies. Nothing animated has come close to the shows from back in the day and the movies they're been making have all been bad in different ways, things are not what they used to be animated wise. DC fans want their version of the Marvel movies that somewhat resemble the comics just once instead of everytime a movie comes out it's has to needlessly change something for no reason. Or the tone is terrible. A batman movie that isn't another campy film or a deconstruction or scared to embrace what Batman is. The upcoming Batman is really what people have been waiting for.
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Jan 4, 2021 02:32
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The MCU doesn’t resemble its source comics even a little bit.
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Jan 4, 2021 02:54
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Seems rather spurious to me. Isn't Nolan's Batman trilogy significantly different than the comics, yet generally well received by comic book fans? How are the MCU films more faithful to the comic books?
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Jan 4, 2021 02:54
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“DC fans” make up like 10% of the total potential audience for these movies and a bunch of them are honestly happy with what they get (as evidenced by a bunch of people defending them to the death online). The people who loathe Snyder don’t do so because they want DC to be like MCU, when WB tried to do exactly that with Justice League everyone celebrated Snyder’s downfall more than they liked Justice League. RLM for example gave a really lukewarm review for it where they were like “oh uhh I liked that I could see everything heh heh” but like, the internet isn’t celebrating Aquaman and Shazam! nearly as much as they are still railing against the Snyder cut, Joker is well liked despite being nothing like the comics etc.
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Jan 4, 2021 03:01
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Justice League isn't like the comics at all. Pirate Jet posted:The MCU doesn’t resemble its source comics even a little bit. They are mostly faithful to the characters except for times when they were changed for the better. KVeezy3 posted:Seems rather spurious to me. Isn't Nolan's Batman trilogy significantly different than the comics, yet generally well received by comic book fans? How are the MCU films more faithful to the comic books? Yes but his Batman still wasn't fully....Batman. he was Nolan's own interpation. MCU films are more faithful than the DC movies is what I was saying. Guy A. Person posted:“DC fans” make up like 10% of the total potential audience for these movies and a bunch of them are honestly happy with what they get (as evidenced by a bunch of people defending them to the death online). People loathed him because he had control of the biggest parts of DC and now that he doesn't idk why either side cares at all. He can go do what he wants now. Aquaman is weird and Shazam is its own thing.
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Jan 4, 2021 03:33
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RBX posted:They are mostly faithful to the characters except for times when they were changed for the better. So changing the characters from the source material is bad except when Marvel does it? Pirate Jet fucked around with this message at 03:40 on Jan 4, 2021 |
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Jan 4, 2021 03:37
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People hating on things you like hurts and I don’t care what anyone says it’s true.
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Jan 4, 2021 03:39
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What? Aquaman and Shazam! absolutely took inspiration from the comics, right down to Aquaman’s ability to talk to sea life not being treated as a joke.
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Jan 4, 2021 03:39
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RBX posted:They are mostly faithful to the characters except for times when they were changed for the better. Oh come the gently caress on.
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Jan 4, 2021 03:42
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RBX posted:Yes but his Batman still wasn't fully....Batman. he was Nolan's own interpation. MCU films are more faithful than the DC movies is what I was saying. I'm not sure that any Batman is "fully Batman." Which Batman? Having a distinct take on the character is good, even if there was a fixed definitive text to work with in the sense that two versions of Hamlet might be very different despite identical scripts. With Batman we're talking about a character that's been defined ultimately by corporate ownership of the character, more so even than with most of the medium. And some of the most beloved takes on DC are the ones that play around with the setting and characters, like Kingdom Come and Red Son. And in terms of film, there are people who even find a lot to like in Clooney's version of Batman. So, like, faithful to what? I get the sense that you're talking about some sort of ownership by the fans, which I would comment on but I don't want to attribute a bunch of assumptions about that and what it means to you. To be fair, Stan Lee having created some of the characters and having been an important editorial voice until his death might have given Marvel itself a more consistent creative voice than DC. But does that elevate the movies? Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 03:50 on Jan 4, 2021 |
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Jan 4, 2021 03:46
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RBX posted:
Uuuuhhhhh, no, really really no. The MCU's interpretation of the heroes, especially what it does to Stark and that the Captain America in First Avengers is nothing resembling the Captain America in Infinity War, is worse because it has no substance to it but whatever was convenient. How is the character of Captain America who jumped on the bomb to save his comrades the same one who says "We don't trade lives" and doesn't understand Vision's POV to prevent a greater tragedy? It's not the same guy and it isn't his experiences that lead him to change.
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Jan 4, 2021 03:52
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RBX posted:They are mostly faithful to the characters except for times when they were changed for the better. lol people absolutely still loathe him, and like I've been saying despite the DCEU continuing forward and finding its footing the contingent of people hating on him have moved onto...still hating him while ignoring the rest of DC's output entirely And again, this poo poo is so arbitrary. Marvel is faithful to the characters except when they aren't and it's better. Aquaman is "weird" but it's the most successful DCEU release. Joker is probably the biggest perpetrator of what you were saying DC fans hated, it's a weird deconstruction of the character that's nothing like the comics and yet it was also a billion seller. The two closest DC movies to the comics are probably Green Lantern and Shazam! in that they were both extremely close to work Geoff Johns did on those titles and he was a producer for one and did a draft of the script for the other, and yet one bombed and the other is on the lower end of DCEU films financially.
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Jan 4, 2021 04:00
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:It's a combination of factors because, while Romero's Santeria references totally fizzle, folks saying that the zombies represent consumerism because they bite people are barely even forming an interpretation. There's also the somewhat well-known fact that Romero gave up on his own thesis and changed the ending so that the characters just randomly survive - even though they clearly didn't learn to heed Babalu-Aye. That definitely contributes to the confusion. Santeria? Zombi come from Vodou. Similar, not the same. Unless you are saying that Romero explicitly references the Santeria oricha Babalu-Aye in the movie (can't recall, watched many years ago as a drunk/stoned youth  when the reference would have meant nothing to me), in which case, can you elaborate with specifics? Cos lmao, what a piss-poor excuse for research that would be.(Wait, I know, the smushing together of two strong and distinct African diasporic traditions is to be read as harking to the enforced syncretic roots of both under slavery and so underscores the universal nature of the suffering of the dispossessed. That'll do.)
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Jan 4, 2021 04:02
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Honestly I'm surprised that with so many Elseworlds and What Ifs and that a big time author can come on a book and totally retcon and change continuity or history of a character and their interpretation that fans can't take a film director examining and showing in depth their take of their favorite superhero on screen. Ang Lee with Hulk, Nolan with Batman, and Snyder understand the subject matter so well and explore it making good movies.
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Jan 4, 2021 04:10
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Honestly the thing I hated the most growing up was the "shared universe" stuff, when I was in the middle of a historic run of comics by Mark Waid or Grant Morrison and some crap that happened in some other comic mucked everything up and suddenly Wonder Woman was dead or Green Lantern was off in space, or else there would be some big event and the cool Flash storyline I was into would grind to a halt and I'd have to wait an extra month between installments Maybe that's why I prefer the more siloed stuff honestly
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Jan 4, 2021 04:31
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Guy A. Person posted:Honestly the thing I hated the most growing up was the "shared universe" stuff, when I was in the middle of a historic run of comics by Mark Waid or Grant Morrison and some crap that happened in some other comic mucked everything up and suddenly Wonder Woman was dead or Green Lantern was off in space, or else there would be some big event and the cool Flash storyline I was into would grind to a halt and I'd have to wait an extra month between installments Honestly, anyone who likes that stuff can still have it too, just not the weird continuity obsession as if it were all one film somehow in the service of what seems to end up basically an ARG campaign to push people into buying different books. Like you can still have some big crossover event, just focus on the writers and artists and the story hooks and maybe even let the other books reference it if they think they can play off the idea, but otherwise let it be it's own thing from the ongoing stories. I doubt any of this is controversial even in bss; it wasn't last time I read comic book threads and that was like a decade ago.
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Jan 4, 2021 04:39
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EmptyVessel posted:Unless you are saying that Romero explicitly references the Santeria oricha Babalu-Aye in the movie He does: the black priest with the crutch, who fed his leg to the zombies, is a direct reference to Babalu Aye (who is typically depicted walking with a crutch, while dogs lick the sores on his legs). Peter says his grandfather was a Trinidadian priest who practiced some type of Macumba (which is Brazillian). He then calls it Voodoo, which is obviously different, but that could be just to simplify it for the white folks. Romero shies away from specifics, because he's evidently just interested in the basic idea of mixing African religion with Catholicism. The two survivors are Peter, with his Macumba, and Fran, who is a (pro-life!) Catholic. MacheteZombie posted:So would you say the critique of consumerism is actually that capitalism distracts the populace from real meaningful change which involves a level of self sacrifice? I'd say that's the broad strokes of it, but it gets complicated when you get into specifics and note that the characters don't actually, y'know, buy anything. What kind of society do they have inside the mall? None of the characters are growing new food, or building new TVs. They're sort-of hunter-gatherers? The actual satire is that these are rebellious 'anarchist' characters - hiding out in the mall specifically to defy government orders - but they still pose for the security cameras as if someone is still watching, still collect money because "you never know", etc. The primary joke, that the audiences are kinda picking up on, is the heroes' failure of imagination in a fantasy-world in which capitalism has already collapsed. Also, regarding self-sacrifice, there's nothing particularly anticapitalist about the scientist's plan to restore balance by pacifying the zombies. Like, everybody gives up a limb, the zombies eventually die out, and... then what?
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Jan 4, 2021 04:40
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RBX posted:People want big budget movies, not animated movies. Nothing animated has come close to the shows from back in the day and the movies they're been making have all been bad in different ways, things are not what they used to be animated wise. So uh what is Batman if he’s not campy or deconstructed? A wealthy fascist, portrayed sympathetically? I’ll pass.
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Jan 4, 2021 04:58
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Flowers for QAnon posted:So what’s the real deal with Justice League? You're gonna have to be a bit more specific here
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Jan 4, 2021 05:06
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RBX posted:DC fans want their version of the Marvel movies that somewhat resemble the comics just once instead of everytime a movie comes out it's has to needlessly change something for no reason. Or the tone is terrible. Noted comic accurate character portrayal of Peter Parker in the MCU with his billion dollar omniscient AI drone defense system.
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Jan 4, 2021 05:53
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:He does: the black priest with the crutch, who fed his leg to the zombies, is a direct reference to Babalu Aye (who is typically depicted walking with a crutch, while dogs lick the sores on his legs). Then the one eyed man rules as king
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Jan 4, 2021 05:58
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teagone posted:Noted comic accurate character portrayal of Peter Parker in the MCU with his billion dollar omniscient AI drone defense system. Don’t forget his uncle Tony Stark
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Jan 4, 2021 06:02
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Gatts posted:Don’t forget his uncle Tony Stark And his best friend Miles' best friend.
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Jan 4, 2021 06:16
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The upcoming Batman is totally what people have been waiting for!! Because it uhh, has Robert Pattinson and uhhhh.... it's red? I guess there was a teaser for it that looked red.
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Jan 4, 2021 06:26
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Martman posted:The upcoming Batman is totally what people have been waiting for!! Because it uhh, has Robert Pattinson and uhhhh.... it's red? I guess there was a teaser for it that looked red. Batmen are still good. We fight. We kill. We betray one another. But we can rebuild. We can do better. We will. We have to.  (Presumably because all attempts at reaching the minds of executives with new ideas have failed and scientists project the energy levels needed for further attempts will require orbital megastructures).
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Jan 4, 2021 06:35
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Batman is a rich guy who solves crimes while dressed as a bat. That's what he was in his first appearance, and what's the "real" Batman if not the earliest one?
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Jan 4, 2021 06:53
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The "real" Batman is like the flipside of the "real" Superman being Smiling Dad. Real Batman is Scowling Dad; he makes sure no one gets hurt but he's pissed off that you woke him up.
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Jan 4, 2021 07:08
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Martman posted:The "real" Batman is like the flipside of the "real" Superman being Smiling Dad. Real Batman is Scowling Dad; he makes sure no one gets hurt but he's pissed off that you woke him up. He's literally Scary Dad, that's actually core to the character. "Criminals are a cowardly and superstitious lot." However, unlike Superman, he's fundamentally human. Batman's imagery is about our animal nature, which has as its foil our humanity. Superman's is about our better nature, which is more than just Strong Daddy. So Batman puts on a totem mask to confront the world, while Superman takes his mask off when he does so. And so on. I'll happily poo poo on comics for not moving on from these characters, but there are lots of reasons they work and play off one another well and work that uses them well is welcome when it shows up.
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Jan 4, 2021 07:23
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Martman posted:The "real" Batman is like the flipside of the "real" Superman being Smiling Dad. Real Batman is Scowling Dad; he makes sure no one gets hurt but he's pissed off that you woke him up. This reminds me of pro wrestler Arn Anderson who has been described by fans, right here at Something Awful (thumbs up), as your dad after you woke him at three in the morning after a night out when he has an early shift in the morning. This is a standout character. Alongside playboys, cowboys, zombie cowboy wizards, punks and other weirdos is just An Angry Dad. I think the appeal of batman is the same. In a world of freaks, gods and aliens he comes across as more dangerous just by being the most angry, most humourless man alive. 2house2fly posted:Batman is a rich guy who solves crimes while dressed as a bat. That's what he was in his first appearance, and what's the "real" Batman if not the earliest one? I agree. The Batman who carried a gun and snapped peoples necks is the realest batman. This is not a joke, at least it's honest. I still want an explanation of how a gun isn't a gun if you strap it on your car. Riddle me that batman!
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Jan 4, 2021 09:32
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Explosives, rockets, toxins, things that scramble your brain, machine guns mounted on a fleet of bat vehicles, all that's ok but don't you DARE use a gun, Batman!
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Jan 4, 2021 09:37
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RBX posted:The upcoming Batman is really what people have been waiting for. An evergreen statement.
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Jan 4, 2021 09:53
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garycoleisgod posted:I think the appeal of batman is the same. In a world of freaks, gods and aliens he comes across as more dangerous just by being the most angry, most humourless man alive. Weird thing is, this is also what makes Batman comedy gold.
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Jan 4, 2021 11:11
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RBX posted:People want big budget movies, not animated movies. Nothing animated has come close to the shows from back in the day and the movies they're been making have all been bad in different ways, things are not what they used to be animated wise. Yeah I'm gonna chime in and say the Marvel movies ain't nothing like the comics either; they just worship and never criticize the heroes while not asking you to think at all. Thor, for instance, ain't in the slightest like any comic, and Ragnarok, which is the best Marvel movie, cribbed from World War Hulk for half its plot but turned a dark Greek tragedy into a comedy where none of the tragedy happened. The fact that the early DC movies are like comics is why people dislike them. It kind of started with Rises, which was also hugely critical of the hero while pulling more from the comics than any other Batman movie.
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Jan 4, 2021 12:51
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brawleh posted:I mean, a common criticism of Snyder is that his visuals are too obvious or heavy handed and yet. His visuals are too heavyhanded and also just meaningless spectacle. He has nothing to say and is too slavish to source material, but also changes things too much and can't make faithful adaptations. He's a vapid jockbro idiot who weaves fascist randian objectivist messages into every film. He is all things to all haters. RBX posted:People loathed him because he had control of the biggest parts of DC and now that he doesn't idk why either side cares at all. He can go do what he wants now.   Pictured: the loathing of the people
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Jan 4, 2021 13:05
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McSpanky posted:His visuals are too heavyhanded and also just meaningless spectacle. He has nothing to say and is too slavish to source material, but also changes things too much and can't make faithful adaptations. He's a vapid jockbro idiot who weaves fascist randian objectivist messages into every film. Umberto Eco posted:The enemy is both strong and weak. “By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemy is at the same time too strong and too weak.” The haters were the fascists all along 
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Jan 4, 2021 14:05
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RBX posted:A batman movie that isn't another campy film or a deconstruction or scared to embrace what Batman is. The upcoming Batman is really what people have been waiting for. Batman is an inherently deconstructive figure. Like on a certain level it's tempting to say that embracing what Batman is would be to make an outright fascist fantasy. A comparable film to what this might be Boondock Saints, which is a really fun fascist fantasy carried by style and strong and relatable performances (Willem Dafoe turns what might have otherwise been the worst character into the best by really embracing a role that we might call somewhat problematic and then just chewing scenery nonstop). That's can't be quite right, though- say what you will but comic book people are able to distinguish between Punisher and Batman and this particular distinction tends to be pretty important to Batman fans even when they're also fans of the better Punisher stories. And, like, even at the most basic level, this dude is dressing as a loving bat. It's not quite just as Alan Moore (whose most notable work has like five or six characters who are all Batman) characterizes the genre at at it's worst- basically Birth of a Nation for kids. And that's because while bats are legitimately a symbol of fear, they're also a symbol of insanity. A rich guy going around with crazy armor and a million gadgets and elite training and dispensing vigilante justice is terrifying, but it's also hilarious. Even reactionary Batman stories that are any good are satirical and/or deconstructions. Miller's The Dark Knight Returns is ultimately a deeply reactionary work, but it's a pretty brilliant critical look at Batman at the same time- if anything it suffers a lot from being uncomfortably correct about where American culture was and is heading. And Miller is very explicit that the Joker is ultimately an inherent product of Batman's politics- stochastic terrorism emerging as a response to state terrorism. People here like to riff on the whole "Batman doesn't kill" thing, but if there's a legitimate core to it, it's that part of what makes this work is that Batman doesn't see himself as an executioner. There's more than a bit of James Bond in him, but he's not an assassin like Bond is. It's irrational and ultimately denial to pretend he doesn't accept that casualties, both hostile and even innocent, may result from the sort of battles he engages is- to paraphrase SMG, it only becomes a hard "no deaths" rule when Robin shows up, and then only really when there are regulatory issues about how you're allowed to depict violence. But a fundamental thing about him is that he could solve a lot of problems by just dropping the Joker off a bridge or something. So every story told about him addresses this to some level, it's just part of what Batman is about. So the hypocrisy of Nolan's Batman, for example, resonates, but the critique that this leads directly to a Batman who kills the Joker is all too familiar to those who know the character well. And this distinction is really what Batman's character in BvS is about- but to be charitable, some fans may just want to move on past that to the Batman who has found his moral center. Getting there is important, though. There's a reason that, maybe starting with Miller, all these stories are about Batman regaining his purpose while Wayne Manor has fallen to ruin. Superman is important here, because on a really broad level, when playing off Batman in a political context, Superman represents the left. So for Miller, Batman feels betrayed by the left for siding with the state in the early days of neoliberalism. And the most reassuring note in the ending, where Batman is practically leading a fascist uprising, is the unstated promise that Superman will hold him in check. So you do need a story about getting there, and I think you need Superman as a character to make that work. I can understand not wanting to go over this territory again for a movie you didn't like, though, and since the best advice for making it better would be "watch the extended cut," I don't really think "no watch it again but longer" is going to help. Poor RBX. They're probably trying to troll and I'm all like "let me get my lecture notes on this very serious subject... ah here, under 'costumes, bat'" 
Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 14:55 on Jan 4, 2021 |
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Jan 4, 2021 14:52
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Number one they're more faithful COMPARED TO WHAT MOVIES DC WAS PUTTING OUT. That's the conversation were having. Stop twisting words. No they didn't just make the comics into a film because that's not possible, duh. But OVERWHELMINGLY people agree whatever DC was doing is not what they wanted. Green Lantern was a poo poo movie, IDC how faithful it was. Aquaman is weird because yes the movie is good but he's not a generally popular character. I hate the new Spider Man too. Using loving rotten tomatoes as "evidence" of anything is laughable. If people like Man of Steel and BVS so much then we'd still be getting more of those wouldnt we? But we're not. It's dead. They failed no matter how much you try to fight it. New Batman actually seems good because for once it's a loving brutal guy that seems to actually have issues. The Bruce in that trailer does not look well adjusted at all. And no Batfleck was just DKR batman which is the worst. I'm so tired of that Batman. Rise is nothing like the comics, actually the only Batman closest to the comics is the first two Nolan movies. I do have a soft spot for the Forever movie.
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Jan 4, 2021 15:36
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RBX posted:Using loving rotten tomatoes as "evidence" of anything is laughable. If people like Man of Steel and BVS so much then we'd still be getting more of those wouldnt we? But we're not. Uh
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Jan 4, 2021 15:41
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RBX posted:Number one they're more faithful COMPARED TO WHAT MOVIES DC WAS PUTTING OUT. That's the conversation were having. Stop twisting words. No they didn't just make the comics into a film because that's not possible, duh. But OVERWHELMINGLY people agree whatever DC was doing is not what they wanted. I dont think you read comics. Every element from Rises was either from the comics/animation or a previous Batman movie. Bane was Ras' rejected Bruce. No Mans Land happened, with the court. Batman couldn't get rid of a bomb. The movie had a literal healing Lazarus Pit complete with a resurrected Ras in it to make sure you get what it is if you arent paying attention. Etc. Etc. Etc. DC movies draw far more from the comics than Marvel movies, and that seems to be the issue since some "fans" dont want the themes that have been presented in the comics and would rather have Saturday cartoon versions that dont really question anything. Compare MoS to Birthright and then compare like Iron Man 2 to Iron Mans Demon in a Bottle, and look at how both pull from each and tell me which is more like the source. "Fans" just don't read or understand the source material but pretend they do. Darko fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Jan 4, 2021 |
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Jan 4, 2021 15:45
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BvS is like literally Dark Knight Returns mixed with Watchmen. I don't know know how much more faithful to comics it can get. It's more faithful to Dark Knight Returns than the Dark Knight Returns cartoon!!
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Jan 4, 2021 15:48
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