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Shifty Pony posted:This is the first time the current batch of leaders have encountered a situation where they cannot weasel their way around making hard decisions through bargaining and politicking. I'm 99% sure lunch windows are one of the few things Donald understands.
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Jan 4, 2021 15:20
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Never trust the murder tree
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Jan 4, 2021 15:49
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Considering the person was dressed in an inflatable tree costume in an emergency department, it's pretty safe to assume they're support/office staff and not a nurse or doctor. imo the responsibility is on whoever okayed that costume and the indoor party, not whatever low-level employee they got to wear a stupid costume. And that person must feel awful, trying to spread some holiday cheer and instead having some nasty gifts under the tree.
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Jan 4, 2021 15:53
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I'm sorry, but I have to assign some kind of responsibility to the people who saw the inflatable tree of spreading airborne viruses and didn't raise cain to stop it. it's like sitting down at a restaurant in some poo poo hole rural county with 30%+ positivity. You're not thinking about protecting yourself.
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Jan 4, 2021 15:56
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Regarde Aduck posted:Some UK politics journalists are going on about rumblings that the SA variant doesn’t respond to the vaccines as much. Sounds bad Any links? Heard this from an acquaintance too, but he's susceptible to bullshit so I didn't immediately accept the possibility.
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Jan 4, 2021 16:24
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. No one is still doing anything to slow things down through. I guess we just hope it’s the UK government misunderstanding something.
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GonadTheBallbarian posted:Any links? Heard this from an acquaintance too, but he's susceptible to bullshit so I didn't immediately accept the possibility. Based on some early pre-prints I think: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.12.28.424451v1 Polyclonal antibody escape = real bad news, plus it might spread as fast or faster than the UK variant quote:One Sentence Summary Three mutations allowed SARS-CoV-2 to evade the polyclonal antibody response of a highly neutralizing COVID-19 convalescent plasma. e: CDC summary page of both, though they say there is currently no evidence of impact on vaccine efficacy: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/science-and-research/scientific-brief-emerging-variants.html brugroffil fucked around with this message at 16:30 on Jan 4, 2021 |
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Jan 4, 2021 16:28
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Another study out of the UK finds that children and schools are, in fact, major transmission vectors. This should surprise absolutely no one. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/tfc-children-and-transmission-update-paper-17-december-2020 Some commentary: https://twitter.com/Dr2NisreenAlwan/status/1345661874302578689
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Jan 4, 2021 16:47
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The Moderna dose variation is another gamble, yet the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are the same type (mRNA) with Pfizer having a 30mcg dose and Moderna 100mcg dose.It could be not anywhere as bad as people are thinking, while still being the “off label vs EBM” debate.
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Jan 4, 2021 16:49
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brugroffil posted:Another study out of the UK finds that children and schools are, in fact, major transmission vectors. This should surprise absolutely no one. This should surprise absolutely no one. I do wonder if the American press will report on it though. Somehow I doubt it. It would cut against the "open schools now" grain a bit too much, probably.
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Jan 4, 2021 17:09
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brugroffil posted:Based on some early pre-prints I think: Well... at least we had a few weeks of kinda-sorta optimism with the first vaccine rollouts and the Christmas season before reality came back and kicked us all in the teeth?
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Jan 4, 2021 17:15
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HelloSailorSign posted:The Moderna dose variation is another gamble, yet the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are the same type (mRNA) with Pfizer having a 30mcg dose and Moderna 100mcg dose.It could be not anywhere as bad as people are thinking, while still being the “off label vs EBM” debate. I'm not a biologist, but the thing I don't get about this is that they have 2 different delivery formulations right? So I naively don't expect them to be equally as powerful gram-per-gram because they're formulated differently. To take the most obvious difference, the pfizer one requires storage at like -75 C and the moderna one require -25 C, so they clearly have a different way of encapsulating the rna or different molecules/composition for the stabilization/delivery stuff. I also don't know what the ratio between the encapsulation stuff/rna is, like is the 100 vs 30 just on the basis of rna? Or could one have just a lot more of the encapsulation/stabilization stuff included in the dose? But again I'm not a biologist, this is just my layman's objection to trying to cut down the dosage of one because the other uses a smaller dose. Like of course you may need more or less of one or the other!
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Jan 4, 2021 17:36
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The half dose Moderna thing might indeed work just fine. But it hasn't gone through phase 3 efficacy testing so we don't really know it has similar effectiveness in preventing disease or if the immunity will last as long as full doses. Basing public health policy on wild rear end guesses is not a good way to go about things. Even if your wild rear end guess might be correct.
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Jan 4, 2021 17:53
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brugroffil posted:Another study out of the UK finds that children and schools are, in fact, major transmission vectors. This should surprise absolutely no one. There was a big (n=65,000?) study on kiddos in South Korea that had tentative findings that while kids spread it in school, it spread at a rate lower than it would have been for adults in similar conditions. I don’t know everything is bad.
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Jan 4, 2021 17:54
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Ornery and Hornery posted:There was a big (n=65,000?) study on kiddos in South Korea that had tentative findings that while kids spread it in school, it spread at a rate lower than it would have been for adults in similar conditions. https://twitter.com/Dr2NisreenAlwan/status/1345661881487392769?s=20
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Jan 4, 2021 18:00
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St. Dogbert posted:Well... at least we had a few weeks of kinda-sorta optimism with the first vaccine rollouts and the Christmas season before reality came back and kicked us all in the teeth? Not at all - that study, which is still a pre-print - points out that COVID can mutate far enough from the original to not be as susceptible to antibodies from a previous version. That is, quite literally, what just about everyone in medicine knows will happen at some point while being entirely expected. It was almost the equivalent of how the UK variant came about, sit COVID in a situation where it's constantly exposed to a variety of antibodies and just let them keep stewing together, eventually leading to something new coming about. As of now I've still not heard of either UK or SA variants showing up in significant numbers in previous COVID havers (please correct me if I'm wrong). Given the outbreaks of both in both areas, there should be more reports, even anecdotally. Eeyo posted:But again I'm not a biologist, this is just my layman's objection to trying to cut down the dosage of one because the other uses a smaller dose. Like of course you may need more or less of one or the other! Your ideas and concerns are totally sound - I don't have the knowledge of the methods they used to know if there is that significant of a weight difference between the vectors used. However, if the weights are similar leading to a similar number of similarly effective mRNA reaching the cells, then the idea is based on a sound reasoning. Fritz's point about lack of Phase 3, though, are concerning.
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Jan 4, 2021 18:27
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I've done some RNA work and if you don't have liquid nitrogen to flash freeze samples you use a special stabilization buffer to preserve the RNA longer in a regular freezer. RNA Later is the specific product I've used. Since Moderna can be stored much longer at refrigerator or regular freezer temps, I'm assuming it is stored in a similar RNA stabilization buffer. Pfizer might have something like that too, but Moderna vaccine has some more additives to extend shelf life. It would make sense that Moderna dosage would be larger for that reason even if the mRNA payload is similar. There's no good reason to assume Moderna and Pfizer could be dosed 1:1 the same by mass. They work the same way but there's something in the Moderna formulation that improved shelf life. That's water under the bridge though. We should go with the dosage and schedule that went through phase 3 trials. The phase 2 data aren't even public! Why even bother with vaccine trials at that point? It's reckless. Oh, another thing that just occurred to me. If you give half dose Moderna to under 55s and end up with not as good immunity as full dose, aren't you setting yourself up for evolution of vaccine resistance?
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Jan 4, 2021 18:43
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Ornery and Hornery posted:There was a big (n=65,000?) study on kiddos in South Korea that had tentative findings that while kids spread it in school, it spread at a rate lower than it would have been for adults in similar conditions. Adults in similar conditions were one of the first things closed because it's really, really bad. It's a meaningless bar to clear whether it's accurate or not. Hotboxing groups of 30 and sending them back home every day is going to spread viruses fast regardless.
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Jan 4, 2021 19:14
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Ironically, from what I remember of Derek Lowe's write-ups on Moderna, the last time they checked dosing at lower doses in Phase 1/2, there were some dose-dependent effects (sample size being incredibly small, notably). They went with the dose they did because it was tolerated equally in safety and dosage well to the dosage that was a quarter (100 micrograms vs. 25 micrograms), whereas a 200 microgram dose was causing some harder side effects than 100 micrograms to essentially minimal added benefit. If you assume that the 50 microgram seroconversion would fall somewhere between 100 and 25 on the curve, it's not the worst idea in the world as a concept, especially since it seems so far like the Booster as a second exposure is more important to lasting immunity for the IgB response and affinity boost than necessarily the total volume of dose (i.e.. it's more likely that two doses spaced provide longer protection than a single dose of that same volume due to the importance of Prime then boost). Attaching the, incredibly small sample, phase I trial write-up below just so people can see it https://www.nejm.org/doi/suppl/10.1056/NEJMoa2022483/suppl_file/nejmoa2022483_appendix.pdf as well as Derek Lowe's write-up https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2020/07/15/modernas-phase-i-data. It's honestly a fairly novel concept in the sense that it could be worth studying (which needs to be its own trial), and it could lead to some standard of care changes (younger/healthier people get 50 micro grams standard, whereas the elderly/infirm/comorbid stay at the 100 microgram dosing much like how elderly flu shots tend to be stronger to account for weaker immune responses). That said, it's not something you do on a loving EUA. This is the definition of something that should have been studied earlier in case of emergency or shortages, but here we are. The 50 microgram idea, of all the ideas being thrown out, is probably the least insane as opposed to random delays in the boosters (given we don't know how durable one shot is) or trying to single dose things that we know outright couldn't be single dosed without risk of resistance or lack of efficacy, but it's also wholly unnecessary and undermines public confidence. If we think it's worth it, just start a study now, since we probably could have a whole new Phase 3 cohort for it by like April at current infection rates. But as far as I can tell, we have the shots we need--it's implementation now, not a loving supply issue, no matter how much they try to pretend it is. Assuming JNJ has positive data and Novavax's results hold, we're likely going to have an abundance of shots in the next two months. It's time to go full bore on getting this thing out there. We can't afford the shelf time of trying to convince people rejecting it so far to get it, not when we can maximize those doses by sending them literally anywhere else to anyone willing and start cutting transmission/illness in the population immediately and take air out of the balloon that way. There are worse things than some line-jumpers if 90% of the doses are hitting the general public and getting this moving, especially since we're helping to create critical mass to hopefully start to persuade people to get the shot once they start to know people who have done so. Ensuring equity is important, but you can't just freeze up on rollout because you're horribly worried some high school teacher might get it before every single hospital worker has it offered--leakage happens and there's no reason we can't be operating on a number of these groups simultaneously. Create discrete weeks and queue lists, do loving something beyond targeting rough demographics for this, because saying you want to give it to essential workers and actually finding/vaccinating those essential workers is loving difficult. People are going to lie on eligibility criteria; people are inevitably going to cheat this just like the PPP or any other massive disaster initiative. The point is, create such a surge of shots going out that it doesn't matter relative to the number of nodes you're eliminating for COVID to rush through.
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Jan 4, 2021 19:22
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The EMA had a meeting today about the Moderna vaccin, but approval has not yet been granted due to some open questions that Moderna has to answer. So approval will not happen for at least a few more days.
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Jan 4, 2021 19:31
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I went skiing today which is the first thing I've done in public for pleasure in quite some time. They are significantly limiting capacity, only season pass holders are guaranteed a slot, no same-day ticket sales, and while the restaurant is open they are also providing food and beer through a window outside, and also explicitly recommending that people "use their own cars as much as possible". Personally, I tend to ski for a few hours first thing in the morning before work, but if I do any all-day deals I am just going to bring a box lunch and a couple cans of beer, and party in my car with some tunes and a vape or whatever. I was able to pick up my season pass with close to zero contact, everything is spaced out, people kept their distance in line, and basically it was a totally fine experience and nothing about it seemed concerning to me. I am glad to go to a local place which disallows snowboarders, simply because that reduces overall traffic and significantly reduces out of state visitors. In fact, out staters are not allowed to ski here unless they have quarantined for 14 days, and if at any point I start seeing a lot of MA plates around the parking lot, I may well become the rear end in a top hat who leaves people little printouts of the state COVID guidelines under their windshield wiper....
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Jan 4, 2021 19:32
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So someone I know is getting the vaccine at the state department and despite having a specific appointment time, there was a massive undistanced indoor line followed by the doctor spending 15 minutes trying to pull up the correct name in their horrible computer system. This rollout is... disappointing.
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Jan 4, 2021 19:39
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davebo posted:So someone I know is getting the vaccine at the state department and despite having a specific appointment time, there was a massive undistanced indoor line followed by the doctor spending 15 minutes trying to pull up the correct name in their horrible computer system. This rollout is... disappointing. Always good to feel like getting a vaccine is like picking up a ship-to-store order at Wal-Mart.
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Jan 4, 2021 19:41
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Fritz the Horse posted:I've done some RNA work and if you don't have liquid nitrogen to flash freeze samples you use a special stabilization buffer to preserve the RNA longer in a regular freezer. RNA Later is the specific product I've used. Ah, so the buffers are included in the dose amount? I was operating under the assumption that what they're referring to in dose amount is the amount of active substance, that things like buffers, stabilizers, etc., are not counted as part of the 100mcg dose. It's the same as how 50mg of amoxicillin can come in different weights and sizes if it's a 50mg/ml solution, 50mg tablet, or a 50mg capsule, and while the weights are different, the effective dose is the same.
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Jan 4, 2021 19:42
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HelloSailorSign posted:Ah, so the buffers are included in the dose amount? Honestly I have no idea and you may be right. I'm back to work today and would need more time to chase down the dosing specifics. I dunno if the 100mcg is of RNA, RNA + nanoparticles or what. Edit: I'm remembering something about poly A tails which might be part of extending stability? I probably jumped the gun on earlier post.
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Jan 4, 2021 19:56
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It is probably including the lipid encapsulation, since that's an active part of the vaccine. My understanding is without it the mRNA wouldn't be able to get into cells to do its thing.
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Jan 4, 2021 19:59
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Sodomy Hussein posted:Always good to feel like getting a vaccine is like picking up a ship-to-store order at Wal-Mart. I'm having visions of another CNN headline where's it's like this person did everything right to avoid covid until they got the vaccine and died of covid.
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Jan 4, 2021 20:00
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By the time the vaccine is available to me I hope it's delivered by a drone that chases me down the street shooting vax darts at me.
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Jan 4, 2021 20:03
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Fritz the Horse posted:Honestly I have no idea and you may be right. I'm back to work today and would need more time to chase down the dosing specifics. I dunno if the 100mcg is of RNA, RNA + nanoparticles or what. Noted. It could be something like dexamethasone, a steroid, which can come in dexamethasone or dexamethasone-sp formulations. Both should be dosed based on the dexamethasone component, but because there's the added sodium and phosphate atoms/molecules to dex-sp the label says 4mg/ml (because the whole thing includes the sodium and phosphate), but the active ingredient is only 3mg/ml. So if you're looking to get 3mg of active dexamethasone, you'd do 1mL of the standard dex and dex-sp, but you'd be looking at the dex-sp label and thinking, "4mg," which some people have erred and done 0.75mL of the dex-sp (calculating a 3mg dose based on seeing a label saying 4mg/ml).
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Jan 4, 2021 20:03
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I have a question for those knowledgeable about the Pfizer vaccine: 1) I took my first dose at work on Dec. 19th; my scheduled second dose is on Jan. 11th. 2) I was told that there is a maximum 21 day window to get the second dose. I inquired about my second scheduled dosage, which falls outside the 21 day window, and was told that after 21 days there is a four day window to get the second dosage and after that I'd have to re-do my vaccine shot again. Is there a set, absolute window for the second Pfizer dose? is there actually a window after the 21 days that a person can still the second dose? I'll post a update after I contact HR Employee Health, more info in this thread the better!
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Jan 4, 2021 21:15
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BetterToRuleInHell posted:I have a question for those knowledgeable about the Pfizer vaccine: We were give 21 days +/-4 days as our guideline. Mine is scheduled for day 20
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Jan 4, 2021 21:25
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BetterToRuleInHell posted:I have a question for those knowledgeable about the Pfizer vaccine: The second shot is the same as the first, there is no difference between "get 2nd dose" and "re-do vaccine shot". And while you should try to stick with the approved schedule , a few days or even a few weeks late will not make any noticeable difference
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Jan 4, 2021 21:26
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Failed Imagineer posted:The second shot is the same as the first, there is no difference between "get 2nd dose" and "re-do vaccine shot". And while you should try to stick with the approved schedule , a few days or even a few weeks late will not make any noticeable difference While I'm sure there's wiggle room, Pfizer did specifically say they hadn't tested beyond a three week schedule and did not recommend straying from it given all the other unknowns.
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Jan 4, 2021 21:33
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Tesseraction posted:While I'm sure there's wiggle room, Pfizer did specifically say they hadn't tested beyond a three week schedule and did not recommend straying from it given all the other unknowns. Yes that's why I said "stick to the approved schedule", as to not unnecessarily worry the poster who doesn't have any details about vaccination schedules
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Jan 4, 2021 21:35
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Yeah fair, I suppose "a few weeks late" is where I'm sceptical. +/-4 days doesn't bother me in the slightest.
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Jan 4, 2021 21:39
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Eh, it's not going to be a problem for this particular poster. I'm not setting global health policy
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Jan 4, 2021 21:40
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Dick Trauma posted:By the time the vaccine is available to me I hope it's delivered by a drone that chases me down the street shooting vax darts at me. I want to be tackled to the ground by the Boston Dynamics dog
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Jan 4, 2021 22:19
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snipe me with my vaccine from a remote piloted quad copter or go to hell!
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Jan 4, 2021 22:20
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Hide covid vaccine needles in my halloween apples please
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Jan 4, 2021 22:24
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Foreverial Tiedup and me fully vaccinetized with my organs and inside and literally my whole body changed into a permanent living syringe version with permanent living mRNA organs and insides and a permanent lipid, saline, and highly-purified, single-stranded messenger RNA tongue. nose is a permanent needle nose and has two permanent plunger lips and two permanent Pfizer and Moderna branded ears. Fully wrapped like a mummy, tiedup this way to remain and always jumping around with a permanent smile on my face and a wide open permanent plunger mouth speaking constantly ready to lick anyone or anything with my permanent lipid, saline, and highly-purified, single-stranded messenger RNA tongue.
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Jan 4, 2021 23:11
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the 'No Russian' scene from that CoD game, but with dart guns full of vaccine.
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Jan 4, 2021 23:12
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