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Grimthwacker
Aug 7, 2014

My favorite thing about playing as a Hunter Gunslinger is to stick the throwing knife on an opponent in PVP. It's so simple and basic but so satisfying and will never get old.

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a Loving Dog
May 12, 2001

more like a Barking Dog, woof!

idiotsavant posted:

Thin content or not, is there anything in older dungeons/raids that I should be going back to pick up? Already got Xenophage and I’m on the last step of Divinity; anything else I’m missing from Last Wish/Garden/Prophecy/Pit?

do people even run old raids? I really would like to do the ones I missed even though they'd be piss easy now probably. I think the last one I did before the latest one was the wrath of the machine one

Roman
Aug 8, 2002

Pirate Jet posted:

I hate sun setting and vaulting as much as the next guy but extrapolating “game is dying” from that is a bit ridiculous, the game is still consistently in the top ten for active players on each console and in Steam’s year-end review it was in the top twelve for revenue generated. Destiny isn’t going away any time soon unless Bungie’s original IP turns out to be an even bigger smash hit.
D1 and D2 have always been "in a weird place right now" and that is a feature not a bug. Everyone comes back for the next update or expansion which will "make or break the game"

McLarenF1
Jan 9, 2004

Looking to Buy a McLaren, Anyone Selling One .... Cheap?

a Loving Dog posted:

do people even run old raids? I really would like to do the ones I missed even though they'd be piss easy now probably. I think the last one I did before the latest one was the wrath of the machine one

My newbie squad + clan sherpa took almost 2 hours on Garden encounter 1 yesterday including 20+ squad wipes. After that we were able to complete Deep Stone Crypt encounter 1 in like 20 mins with only 2 or 3 wipes. DSC seems to be a lot easier than old raids so far.

Scrub-Niggurath
Nov 27, 2007

a Loving Dog posted:

do people even run old raids? I really would like to do the ones I missed even though they'd be piss easy now probably. I think the last one I did before the latest one was the wrath of the machine one

I know I still need to do Garden for the Divinity exotic quest, not sure how many people still are running Last Wish but all the gear from it is still usable in the current season so it’s not a waste of time or anything

Bobby Deluxe
May 9, 2004

Just did the 1250 Perdition and got Claws of Ahamkara. Before I waste my time going in again, someone clarify for me how it works:

Does it give you a chance of getting an exotic, and the exotic is guaranteed to be arms?

Does it give you a guaranteed arm exotic, and there's a chance it's the new warlock poison arms?

Does it give you a chance at the exotic warlock arms, but something broke and instead it gave me an exotic I already had?

E: Is the 'prioritise exotics you don't have' thing supposed to be working here or not?

Bobby Deluxe fucked around with this message at 01:27 on Jan 5, 2021

a pale ghost
Dec 31, 2008

Is this a dead game? I want to give it a try but this thread seems doomsayery

GoGoGadgetChris
Mar 18, 2010

i powder a
granite monument
in a soundless flash

showering the grass
with molten drops of
its gold inlay

sending smoking
chips of stone
skipping into the fog

a pale ghost posted:

Is this a dead game? I want to give it a try but this thread seems doomsayery

Destiny is GREAT from the 2nd through the 8th week of each expansion. We're in the late season lull now so there's not much to talk about other than gripes and groans.

If you're new give it a try! It's a free game

life_source
May 11, 2008

i got tired of looking at your edgy baby avatar that a 14-year old would be proud of
It's free! Just play it! Who cares!

We doomsay because the feel of the gunplay is really nice and being a space wizard is fun and silly but hate certain choices made by the developers.

And to clarify: None of the decisions of the developers will affect you, a brand new player attempting to play.

life_source fucked around with this message at 01:43 on Jan 5, 2021

XBenedict
May 23, 2006

YOUR LIPS SAY 0, BUT YOUR EYES SAY 1.

McLarenF1 posted:

My newbie squad + clan sherpa took almost 2 hours on Garden encounter 1 yesterday including 20+ squad wipes. After that we were able to complete Deep Stone Crypt encounter 1 in like 20 mins with only 2 or 3 wipes. DSC seems to be a lot easier than old raids so far.

Is the Garden boss still bugged?

a pale ghost posted:

Is this a dead game? I want to give it a try but this thread seems doomsayery

Of course not. Ignore 90% of the posts from the past year. It’s a great game. Get downloading.

SgtSteel91
Oct 21, 2010

Pirate Jet posted:

I hate sun setting and vaulting as much as the next guy but extrapolating “game is dying” from that is a bit ridiculous, the game is still consistently in the top ten for active players on each console and in Steam’s year-end review it was in the top twelve for revenue generated. Destiny isn’t going away any time soon unless Bungie’s original IP turns out to be an even bigger smash hit.


https://twitter.com/Daxtri/status/1346140366546808833?s=20

Kith
Sep 17, 2009

You never learn anything
by doing it right.


Coldforge posted:

congrats on your perfectly spikey 67 stat armor roll that sunsets next week :sadwave:



yeah

idiotsavant
Jun 4, 2000

a Loving Dog posted:

do people even run old raids? I really would like to do the ones I missed even though they'd be piss easy now probably. I think the last one I did before the latest one was the wrath of the machine one

Garden was really hard as a first raid ever thing, but also totally worth; it's loving gorgeous

Mattavist
May 24, 2003

Bobby Deluxe posted:

Just did the 1250 Perdition and got Claws of Ahamkara. Before I waste my time going in again, someone clarify for me how it works:

Does it give you a chance of getting an exotic, and the exotic is guaranteed to be arms?

Does it give you a guaranteed arm exotic, and there's a chance it's the new warlock poison arms?

Does it give you a chance at the exotic warlock arms, but something broke and instead it gave me an exotic I already had?

E: Is the 'prioritise exotics you don't have' thing supposed to be working here or not?

It’s a chance to get any exotic in the slot the sector says it will reward, commonly or rarely based on LL. Might be a higher chance to get one you don’t have than one you do have, but getting one you already have is not a bug.

Mr.Fuzzywig
Dec 13, 2006
I play too much Supcom
What would yall recommend for a group of newbies first raid between Last Wish and GoS? My group of friends all got forsaken and shadowkeep when they were like 5 bucks each.

Scrub-Niggurath
Nov 27, 2007

Mr.Fuzzywig posted:

What would yall recommend for a group of newbies first raid between Last Wish and GoS? My group of friends all got forsaken and shadowkeep when they were like 5 bucks each.

DSC, unless they don’t have beyond light, in which case Garden

Sestze
Jun 6, 2004



Cybernetic Crumb

Mr.Fuzzywig posted:

What would yall recommend for a group of newbies first raid between Last Wish and GoS? My group of friends all got forsaken and shadowkeep when they were like 5 bucks each.
Last Wish, if they have access to a Falling Guillotine, is probably the easiest raid to run through. Riven herself will require you to know how a bubble and a well work, along with how power attacks work (Whirlwind + Relentless on Guillotine, or access to Lament, is fantastic for damage output). You can attempt it legit too, that requires more finesse than just guillotine go brrr though.

Garden has some weird bugginess and mandates long-range weapons to clear the third and fourth encounters (LFRs, snipers, or exotics like xenophage, whisper, or izanagi). The irony of this raid is the easiest to obtain and least rng damage option (xenophage) requires a raid completion with the puzzle to use a specific weapon to allow it to crit hard enough to be worth using (Divinity) and also requires mods in your armor to do some serious damage (relay defender for 1 tether attempts). This isn't even for a one-phase, this is simply to get a two phase or three phase with minor mistakes.

Basically after BL, Garden's a lot buggier, and the final boss is a tremendous pain in the rear end. LW is simple with a single weapon that you can get as a world drop, and gives you 7 shots at fun stuff during the raid (5 encounters + 2 secret chests)

Rip_Van_Winkle
Jul 21, 2011

"When life gives you ghosts, you make ghost-robots"

I think this is a philosophy we can all aspire to.

I don't recommend cheesing a boss the first time through. I get why it's appealing on subsequent runs for people who've been playing the game forever, but a first clear for new people, following a guide for intended strategies will be a lot more satisfying than just one-cycling bosses.

Last Wish is the best raid, but it's also the Weirdest. If you're going in completely blind and don't intend to follow any guides at all, go for Garden over Last Wish. LW is a lot more obscure and difficult to solve, especially for one of the non-boss puzzle encounters. GoS has more clear feedback and mechanics, even if they're sometimes buggier.

VodeAndreas
Apr 30, 2009

Don't do LW blind but it is a very good raid, do Riven legit or you're a bunch of cowards.
The GoS last boss will still mess some groups up.
DSC is good.

LW > DSC > GoS

Kith
Sep 17, 2009

You never learn anything
by doing it right.


Rip_Van_Winkle posted:

I don't recommend cheesing a boss the first time through.

i do

gently caress last wish, there are way too many pain-in-the-rear end puzzles. riven doesn't need to be one too

Pirate Jet
May 2, 2010
Last Wish could be instantly improved by only using four (or whatever) symbols like Leviathan instead of twenty-five that are designed specifically to be similar enough to each other that descriptions can confuse you. Other than that I think it's actually the best raid in D2.

Def DSC for a first raid though.

Sestze
Jun 6, 2004



Cybernetic Crumb

Rip_Van_Winkle posted:

I don't recommend cheesing a boss the first time through. I get why it's appealing on subsequent runs for people who've been playing the game forever, but a first clear for new people, following a guide for intended strategies will be a lot more satisfying than just one-cycling bosses.

Last Wish is the best raid, but it's also the Weirdest. If you're going in completely blind and don't intend to follow any guides at all, go for Garden over Last Wish. LW is a lot more obscure and difficult to solve, especially for one of the non-boss puzzle encounters. GoS has more clear feedback and mechanics, even if they're sometimes buggier.
As Kith mentioned, all that Riven is is a damage and coordination check, and its rewards aren't given to you until you complete another coordination and add clear check in the form of Queenswalk. Performing it without stabbing her in the foot is a more difficult coordination check, and a slightly easier damage check.

The point remains that each encounter is relatively simple if you have a sword - it's a viable damage option that doesn't require extensive farming. I've had PUGs still complete it even with a few people running shithouse blue or bad perk legendary swords. I argue GoS is not as simple, and it's easy to accidentally screw yourself with various things that seem like they should provide additional damage. Finding a decent sniper rifle (Long Shadow, Supremacy, Bite of the Fox, Ikelos, Widow's Bite) is a lot harder than using A Sword You Find.

Things I've seen Go Wrong Arbitrarily in a LW run since BL:
- Eyes of Riven will telefrag you when they spawn off of a captain, or shove you into a wall at a million miles per hour.
- Shuro-chi will sometimes frag you with a single projectile attack at random
- Plates sometimes will show as completed in Shuro-Chi without being completed
- Knights can sometimes teleport in Vault if there's a huge rift in latency between people in-game.
- Riven's death spasms can and will kill you.

Things I've seen Go Wrong Arbitrarily in a GoS run since BL:
- Tether Boxes do not activate until a warlock uses a stasis super's right click to unfuck them.
- Stasis pulses from warlock super can permanently deactivate tether boxes.
- Goblins disappear and still can sacrifice at altars
- Options that stall the boss in the third encounter will cause the boss to enrage sooner or immediately
- Cloudstrike in the third encounter will spawn lightning that will kill you as you advance with the boss
- Motes cannot be picked up until they fully come to rest on the ground
- Motes can be thrown off ledges from explosions or spawn underground from weird geometry.

As someone who runs raids weekly for extra spoils and high statroll armor, I do LW weekly but avoid GoS like the plague, it's a headache finding a full group that doesn't want to do one of the lovely challenges or divinity puzzles, and there's enough bugs to where the experience is annoying the whole way through.

Pirate Jet posted:

Last Wish could be instantly improved by only using four (or whatever) symbols like Leviathan instead of twenty-five that are designed specifically to be similar enough to each other that descriptions can confuse you. Other than that I think it's actually the best raid in D2.

Def DSC for a first raid though.
The reason why he didn't mention DSC as an option is probably because, if his friends are just starting out and playing around with the content, they're not at 1230-1250 yet.

ponzicar
Mar 17, 2008

Bobby Deluxe posted:

Just did the 1250 Perdition and got Claws of Ahamkara. Before I waste my time going in again, someone clarify for me how it works:

Does it give you a chance of getting an exotic, and the exotic is guaranteed to be arms?

Does it give you a guaranteed arm exotic, and there's a chance it's the new warlock poison arms?

Does it give you a chance at the exotic warlock arms, but something broke and instead it gave me an exotic I already had?

E: Is the 'prioritise exotics you don't have' thing supposed to be working here or not?

When I ran some 1250s for helmets a few days ago, I had all the exotic armor except for the new Beyond Light stuff. On my hunter I got the new helmet on my 4th run. On my Warlock I got it on the 2nd run, and on my Titan on the 1st run. I didn't get any duplicates.

DancingShade
Jul 26, 2007

by Fluffdaddy

GoGoGadgetChris posted:

Survival also uniquely has skill based matchmaking, mixed with lobby balancing, as well as win averaging. Bungie wants you to win 50.000% of your survival games so that means your games fall into three categories

25% - your mandated wins. Stacked team against 3 people who are in their mandated losses. Look at you, you're a destiny god!!
50% - your even matches. Blisteringly even game that will go 4-3 with a tie-breaker every round. These will be laggy since Bungie works hard to find your perfect skill match even if he's on a cruise ship in Australia
25% - your mandated losses. For other people to have a guaranteed win, there must be someone with a guaranteed loss. Take it in stride!

Meets my experience, is accurate.

GoGoGadgetChris
Mar 18, 2010

i powder a
granite monument
in a soundless flash

showering the grass
with molten drops of
its gold inlay

sending smoking
chips of stone
skipping into the fog
https://twitter.com/BungieHelp/status/1346226857155334144?s=20

Open dem goodie bags

Doc Mave
Jan 7, 2007
Not a real doc.

SUNKOS posted:

Singleplayer is... well they had some good singleplayer but they recently removed it from the game and there's been a huge reduction in content. It's probably one of the worst times to jump into the franchise right now because the awesome stuff has been removed so you'll be very confused as to what's actually going on.

I agree with everything you said but this. I’m sure it was easy for those who have played regularly since launch to have layered each new element of the game into their weekly routine as it arrived. But I played at launch, became jaded when the desperately-needed QoL improvements (that they’d already implemented on D1 long before D2s launch) felt, to me, ‘gated’ behind the first paid DLC, and put it down until a couple months before Beyond Light’s launch.

When I picked it back up, despite having played D1 exhaustively and D2 a lot at launch, I was totally overwhelmed. So many menus. So many destinations. So many activities. An actual ocean of weapons. Almost-mandatory mods like the warmind cell and CWL suites with no real introduction or explanation. Crammed into an armour system with, again, no in-game tool tips. A wealth of different currencies and consumables (but limited space to carry them, better not delete the important ones lol). All of this with the bare minimum of in-game information provided, at best.

Add to that three primary campaigns (red war, forsaken and shadow keep) - I only had the latter two but new players who bought the DLC on sale would have three) all overlapping and, again, no clear direction from one to the next except different symbols.

Now you might think that there’s plenty of resources online. But even hunting through that’s difficult. Google ‘Destiny 2 good weapons’ and you get a 30 minute Datto video about Season of the Worthy weapons. What’s a season? What season am I in? When was season of the worthy? He’s talking about menagerie drops what the gently caress is a menagerie? Every activity seems to come with an hour of revision beforehand, all of it obfuscated by having to know that you need to search for specific years / seasons / months for the information you’re reading or watching to even be relevant.

Tl;dr It was an absolute loving mess. I don’t like how sunsetting was implemented, and some of these problems, while eased, still absolutely persist. But in order to attract and retain new players and keep the game alive long-term it was an absolutely necessary move.

ClydeFrog
Apr 13, 2007

my body is a temple to an idiot god
Forums user Doc Mave has an excellent point. I started Destiny a month or so before Beyond Light and I was totally loving confused most of the time - there was no chance I was going to get some of my friends to play with me that didn't have time to sit and stare and try and work out WTF was going on with any of it. When I logged in afterwards and saw everything cleaned up, I did breathe a sigh of relief alongside weeping quietly that my fave gun (which I'd only had for a few weeks) was now pointless.

There should have been some missions for babbies (unless I missed them) where Banshee explains mods to you, or a firing range where you get taken through your different weapons and get to see what does what etc. Nothing compulsory because being forced through content is obnoxious, but I still spent a long time explaining things, sounding increasingly like a lunatic. "See those weapons will generate a glowing ball, no, not like the one on the moon, NO YOU CAN'T RUN INTO IT, STOP TRYING TO COLLECT IT YOU DON'T HAVE THAT MOD, YES YOU CAN LATER ON"... etc.

Luckily I have patient friends who have managed to cope with my cack-handed explanations and grow to love the game. Still no excuse whatsoever in charging for single-player content resulting in kit that is useless for the rest of the game. Terrible.

And more grumbling, sometimes in Elimination my fireteam are sitting in orbit and one of us goes into the match with two randoms instead - whilst the other two still see us all waiting in our ships. The person that goes in daren't quit out in case they get arbitrarily banned for whatever made up thing Bungie accuse us of. At least our friend had his Gambit ban lifted after the two weeks following his NAT woes.

What do I want in a fusion rifle? I have 27 Glacioclasm sitting in the vault waiting for me to sort through them.

McLarenF1
Jan 9, 2004

Looking to Buy a McLaren, Anyone Selling One .... Cheap?
As a new player (started playing after Thanksgiving 2020), I never experienced the previous state of the game so I'll have to take y'all word about the games current issues. But I would like to list a few positive things I really enjoy about the game:

  • Destiny Companion App - I love being able to grab bounties without having to go to the tower and see quest, inventory, and other information on my phone, I wish all my games had this!
  • API Support - I love Destiny Item Manager for finding an optional loadout of armor, Light Light and Light.gg are great for inventory management, this is such a great QoL
  • Always being able to go into the menus and character screens, even while loading is another amazing QoL feature so I'm never starting at loading screen for too long
  • Deep library of Exotics, Weapon Types, and Mods that let me customize my character to my play style, though I wish there was a better way to get more mods
  • Multiplayer Options for 3/4/6 Players - no matter the size of my fireteam, we've got options for both PvE and PvP content

SUNKOS
Jun 4, 2016



You're right, but my point was that the singleplayer they removed was good. I thought the Red War campaign was excellent, aside from that annoying walking section at the start that is. It was brilliantly structured with how it introduced you to each character and planet, and the perfect intro to the game as well as having some great levels, stunning visuals, and just outright moments of pure fun (going nuts in a tank).

Bungie completely botched the presentation of all of this content like you said however, hiding access to this and subsequent campaigns in a menu for a NPC nobody visits in a part of the tower that nobody visits (well, up until Trials, anyway).

My solution would have been simple and elegant. We've all seen the information splash screens when we log into D2. While we're in orbit, before we can do anything, we have to click through the latest news regarding current events and bonuses etc. and that is exactly the system that should have been used for new players. Just a simple check for if they're new and if so? Ss soon as they're in the game either bring up a splash screen about how to start the Red War campaign or, you know, actually just start it so the player isn't even stuck in orbit wondering what they're supposed to do. They could have done this but chose not to. Those info screens are perfect for guiding players through content. Finished the Red War campaign? Another info screen pops up guiding you to the first expansion, followed by another after completion of that.

If they can do this to tell us Drifter has extra infamy or something they can do it to tell new players "Welcome to the game! Here's where you get started!"

Pirate Jet posted:

I hate sun setting and vaulting as much as the next guy but extrapolating “game is dying” from that is a bit ridiculous, the game is still consistently in the top ten for active players on each console and in Steam’s year-end review it was in the top twelve for revenue generated. Destiny isn’t going away any time soon unless Bungie’s original IP turns out to be an even bigger smash hit.

Valid point but BL only launched in November, so any stats for 2020 won't be very much help, the real teller will be 2021 stats as people are now bored and there's much less content.

While there's always been "The game's dying/dead!" cries which would turn out to be wrong of course, this is the first time in franchise history that they have taken away so much content and made grinding for gear basically pointless. This is the first major change that will actually test the fanbase in my opinion and I think 2021 will be the year where we see either people actually dropping the game for real, or just sucking it up and running that treadmill because they're too invested.

Either ways, this is the first time that I think it's reasonable to say "I think Bungie's really messed up". I've been late coming back to the game after taking a small break after finishing the pre-BL season and my clan has shuttered and ditched the game. Drop in the ocean obviously, but I have a feeling that as the year progresses frustrations are going to snowball. We know Bungie can't deliver when it comes to seasonal content and the game has been stripped of so much that come the end of this year I suspect we'll see a lot of players have just abandoned the game in frustration. Maybe Bungie does something mid-year if they notice a trend however? Who knows.

This year will be the teller for what people will tolerate and if Bungie is actually successful and pulls it off? It's going to set a precedent for the industry that I don't think many people will like.

ClydeFrog
Apr 13, 2007

my body is a temple to an idiot god
The companion app is great. Being in orbit and being able to get weapons out my vault and pick up post is pretty drat useful.

Bobby Deluxe
May 9, 2004

SUNKOS posted:

You're right, but my point was that the singleplayer they removed was good. I thought the Red War campaign was excellent, aside from that annoying walking section at the start that is. It was brilliantly structured with how it introduced you to each character and planet, and the perfect intro to the game as well as having some great levels, stunning visuals, and just outright moments of pure fun (going nuts in a tank).

Worse, the vaulting means that five of the twelve strikes currently in rotation are from vaulted content - yes, the planets they're on are still accessable, but the campaigns aren't. Arms Dealer in particular references a few things from the Red War that no longer make sense - Holliday giving you a tank 'again,' Cayde is still alive, the Oroborous Vectura etc.

The whole disconnect between story and strike always seemed weird to me. I always thought that instead of designing the story levels and strikes seperately, they should have designed each level to be replayable as a strike later. They sort of got close to this in Curse, but then backed off after people criticised them for 'recycling' levels as strikes. If they'd made it clear that this was by design (and not had every loving level go through the infinite forest) it might actually have worked well and given a much broader pool of nightfalls.

In terms of the game's disc footprint I get why they got rid of the extra patrol zones, but it just feels so inconsistent when you look at the effect of it in game. Mercury and Titan are vaulted, but you can still visit Titan in gambit and crucible, and nine of the crucible maps currently in rotation are from vaulted planets. Yes there's a screen of text explaining that Saint 14 has been simulating crucible using Vex scrap, but it's a screen of text on a vendor hidden away in a corner of the tower most players won't bother visiting.

It's a nonsensical shitshow and they no longer have the story campaigns that helped make sense of any of it. Which is weird because the lore and setting are one of the best things about the Destiny franchise. Right now, the fact that the gunplay is fun is about the only thing holding the franchise together, and it's doing a lot of heavy lifting.

Deformed Church
May 12, 2012

5'5", IQ 81


I'm going to disagree and say that they fixed all the wrong problems (or the right problems in the wrong way) with the experience for me. I'm another player who started a few weeks before BL.

I did have a lot of quests and destinations, but they were all good and fun, it felt like thetr were endless possibilities. The campaigns shouldn't have been hidden (just start the new player at red war and tag warmind and coo onto the end), and the other planets should have had recommended power levels clearly marked on the destination screen. Instead I logged on after BL and then ran out of f2p content in a couple of days. If the expansions hadn't gone on sale so soon afterward they'd have lost me there.

On the other hand, it took running out of accessible solo pve content, asking this thread what next, a lot of very frustrating crucible matches and lost sectors, and finally a lot of googling, before I found out armour mods were a thing I can and should be fiddling with.

I understand sunsetting the content itself was an engine thing and they may have needed to do something about the proliferation of guns, but it did not help the learning experience at all and I think f2p players are probably finding themselves quite underwhelmed by how little game there is. They havent actually fixed many of the new player problems and they've made it a way less enticing game to get into.

SUNKOS
Jun 4, 2016


Bobby Deluxe posted:

Worse, the vaulting means that five of the twelve strikes currently in rotation are from vaulted content - yes, the planets they're on are still accessable, but the campaigns aren't. Arms Dealer in particular references a few things from the Red War that no longer make sense - Holliday giving you a tank 'again,' Cayde is still alive, the Oroborous Vectura etc.

...

Yes there's a screen of text explaining that Saint 14 has been simulating crucible using Vex scrap, but it's a screen of text on a vendor hidden away in a corner of the tower most players won't bother visiting.

I had no idea about the Saint 14 simulating Crucible maps thing, god drat. As for everything else you posted I agree. It is also odd still hearing Cayde chatter when he's dead and I know it had to be him because nobody would have even noticed if Ikora died and Zavala would have been met with shrugs but it shows how little thought they've put into all of this, and despite trashing huge chunks of content it's more of a mess now than ever.

They've updated things before (e.g. replacing Dinklage with Nolan North as the ghost which would have been a lot more work, and replacing Nathan Fillion with Nolan North for Cayde) so they could have taken a moment to replace some lines in affected content so new players aren't wondering "Who's the comedy relief here?" only to be told he was killed off a few expansions ago but is still chatting away in parts of the game.


Deformed Church posted:

I understand sunsetting the content itself was an engine thing and they may have needed to do something about the proliferation of guns

There's nothing to understand, it was nonsense. Bungie aren't honest with the community. They did it before with the "It takes days to move a bush so we have to nuke your vaults and start with a new engine for D2!" when there were developer videos showing how quickly and easily a patrol space was created and there was no new engine, they just updated the old one and that's why it's been so easy to bring back old content. Think of it as like going from Unreal Engine 3 to Unreal Engine 4, it's the same engine, just improved. An example of a new engine would be transitioning from Unreal Engine to CryEngine or something. Then you really are starting over from scratch and have a lot to learn, but Bungie didn't do this.

We've also seen that their promise of "It'll be so much quicker and easier to make content now, it's gonna come out so much faster!" was a lie and it's slower than ever, especially after the loss of the support studios from the Activision split.

Waroduce
Aug 5, 2008

Doc Mave posted:

I agree with everything you said but this. I’m sure it was easy for those who have played regularly since launch to have layered each new element of the game into their weekly routine as it arrived. But I played at launch, became jaded when the desperately-needed QoL improvements (that they’d already implemented on D1 long before D2s launch) felt, to me, ‘gated’ behind the first paid DLC, and put it down until a couple months before Beyond Light’s launch.

When I picked it back up, despite having played D1 exhaustively and D2 a lot at launch, I was totally overwhelmed. So many menus. So many destinations. So many activities. An actual ocean of weapons. Almost-mandatory mods like the warmind cell and CWL suites with no real introduction or explanation. Crammed into an armour system with, again, no in-game tool tips. A wealth of different currencies and consumables (but limited space to carry them, better not delete the important ones lol). All of this with the bare minimum of in-game information provided, at best.

Add to that three primary campaigns (red war, forsaken and shadow keep) - I only had the latter two but new players who bought the DLC on sale would have three) all overlapping and, again, no clear direction from one to the next except different symbols.

Now you might think that there’s plenty of resources online. But even hunting through that’s difficult. Google ‘Destiny 2 good weapons’ and you get a 30 minute Datto video about Season of the Worthy weapons. What’s a season? What season am I in? When was season of the worthy? He’s talking about menagerie drops what the gently caress is a menagerie? Every activity seems to come with an hour of revision beforehand, all of it obfuscated by having to know that you need to search for specific years / seasons / months for the information you’re reading or watching to even be relevant.

Tl;dr It was an absolute loving mess. I don’t like how sunsetting was implemented, and some of these problems, while eased, still absolutely persist. But in order to attract and retain new players and keep the game alive long-term it was an absolutely necessary move.


You're describing symptoms to a problem. The issue isn't that there is too much content or that the content is confusing to new players, the former I would reject (pls give me all the content, especially if I paid for it) and the latter is a problem of presentation and design.

As a player, I would like to be able to access old content in an easy to understand manner that is integrated into the wider game and new player experience.

Now as a new player, I understand why this makes sense, and they do seem to be catering to new players and trying to grow the user base instead of catering to the boys who've been here for years. I was slightly overwhelmed to begin with but the New Light experience was pretty well done imo. They just need a way in game to show players what works in the old world and where items/loot/points of interest are. I like the idea of rotating content through to keep it fresh irt to strike/gambit/pvp maps but pulling all the campaigns and raids is super lovely imo. If they wanted to keep everyone rotating through the content they have a chance to do it with weekly powerful/pinnacle rewards. Like the fact that I have to have fuckin Prophecy dungeon or whatever on farm sucks, I know there are other dungeons like rotate them in even if its once every other month, give powerful/pinnacles for other planetary quests apart from Europa and stuff like that. I don't think removing chunks of content is the answer to anything

e: Give me loving six man fire teams in public areas and six man strikes god dammit.

Bobby Deluxe
May 9, 2004

SUNKOS posted:

I had no idea about the Saint 14 simulating Crucible maps thing, god drat.
It seems like the first time you talk to him after Beyond Light, (in my case when I was giving him a present) there was another screen of text. I feel like it was added a way into the season, because it didn't pop up when I was doing the new light stuff on my hunter, but it did pop up around the start of the dawning when I gave him his present.

He mentions the darkness, and says something about guardians using scrap they had stolen from Mercury to build a simulation of the lighthouse and some of the arenas, and that he had told Shaxx to do the same.

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/interactions/saint-14-the-coming-trials

Drifter isn't mentioned, implying that because Drifter is team umbral, the darkness might be letting him slip past for gambit purposes, or he might be simulating the arenas in whatever his ship is towing.

Honestly though strikes have always existed in a weird ludonarrative space. External to the narrative, they exist as replayable PvE activities. But within the narrative there is an attempt at telling a linear story which ends with the 'death' of the boss. Who you keep killing again and again.

You could probably square that as the playlists being external to the narrative and each strike being a replayed loop. One of the Curse strikes is even set up as 'Oh poo poo we raised panoptes again, please sort it out for us again.'

Except within the narrative, you also have Zavala talking about sending you on strike operations and specifically mentions the playlists.

The only point at which any of it made sense was within the framework of Ikora's 'meditations' where you replayed (i.e. remembered) old missions, imagining real hard how you might do them differently with new guns and abilities or higher power levels.

This is why I feel like the strikes should have been framed more as 'this is an ongoing problem you need to deal with,' like instead of sending you to kill a particular boss, you get sent to make sure the Cabal haven't promoted a new Valus, and if they have, kill him.

And this excuses using the same path each time, because whether we wanted it or not, we've stepped into a war with the Cabal on Mars. So let's get to taking out their command, one by one. From what I can gather their new leader commands the Siege Dancers from an Imperial Land Tank outside of Rubicon. He'll be well protected, but with the right team, we can punch through those defenses, take this beast out, and break their grip on Freehold.

Bobby Deluxe fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Jan 5, 2021

SgtSteel91
Oct 21, 2010

Bobby Deluxe posted:


This is why I feel like the strikes should have been framed more as 'this is an ongoing problem you need to deal with,' like instead of sending you to kill a particular boss, you get sent to make sure the Cabal haven't promoted a new Valus, and if they have, kill him.

The Glassway strike replay is definitely framed like this; with The Exo Stranger calling you up that the Vex are making another invasion attempt on Europa and you need to get to the portal to stop them

SgtSteel91 fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Jan 5, 2021

SUNKOS
Jun 4, 2016


Waroduce posted:

they do seem to be catering to new players and trying to grow the user base instead of catering to the boys who've been here for years.

Gee, I wonder why :haw: There must be more throwing in the towel than I thought.

Bobby Deluxe posted:

The only point at which any of it made sense was within the framework of Ikora's 'meditations' where you replayed (i.e. remembered) old missions, imagining real hard how you might do them differently with new guns and abilities or higher power levels.

This is why I feel like the strikes should have been framed more as 'this is an ongoing problem you need to deal with,' like instead of sending you to kill a particular boss, you get sent to make sure the Cabal haven't promoted a new Valus, and if they have, kill him.

I completely forgot about this, I wonder why they got rid of it?

Majere
Oct 22, 2005

by Fluffdaddy

(and can't post for 11 years!)

Vex are the only ones who repeatedly try something over and over changing it a molecule at a time to see if its better for them.

ClydeFrog
Apr 13, 2007

my body is a temple to an idiot god

Majere posted:

Vex are the only ones who repeatedly try something over and over changing it a molecule at a time to see if its better for them.

It certainly feels like those wyverns put considerable effort into stamping on me in new and interesting ways.

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SUNKOS
Jun 4, 2016


Still miss the Vex Moon invasions. Whenever that portal opened in the sky and the screen flooded with enemies it was a real nice break from patrol for some pure fun just shooting loads of baddies and blowing stuff up. Wish it was still in the game and on every location as just a random encounter type of thing wherever you are, kinda like those huge Taken bosses appearing everywhere in D1 with the Taken King expansion. Actually they should bring that back too and really spice up Patrol zones, have enemy races constantly invading everywhere so there's more fun stuff to do. Shooting stuff is the best part of the game so they should lean into it with patrol zones. Those "The enemy are moving against each other" events should be more widespread as well. Patrol spaces could be spiced up so much if they just brought back and made use of things they've already implemented before.

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