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Actually, that might explain why TLJ was so divisive; it seems almost intended to be so contradictory and vague that people could take away whatever they liked from it. Like Trump and Biden speeches.
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Jan 12, 2021 13:42
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Speleothing posted:So kylo ren definitely murdered baby yoda, right? please don't spoil the season 3 finale like this
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Jan 12, 2021 13:54
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Jan 12, 2021 15:29
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you know what they say, do not stick your dick in raisin
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Jan 12, 2021 15:32
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The best part of that awful Ep 9 retcon is that it makes Palpatine look like an ever bigger rear end in a top hat because Snoke came out of the tube looking like that already and he went “ship it.” What a prick.
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Jan 12, 2021 15:41
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snoke should've been the last surviving youngling i stole this but i'm running with it
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Jan 12, 2021 15:42
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:snoke should've been the last surviving youngling Much like Rey Nobody, I actually really liked the idea of Snoke just being a rando who came from nowhere, amassed a military cult of ex-Imperial dead enders because he was charismatic and had Force powers, and then got tooled by his boy toy because he underestimated the power of horny crazy. It meant that anyone could be a Jedi and anyone could be a Sith now, you just had to get up off your rear end and give it a try. Then Rise of Skywalker happened 
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Jan 12, 2021 15:48
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nine-gear crow posted:Much like Rey Nobody, I actually really liked the idea of Snoke just being a rando who came from nowhere, amassed a military cult of ex-Imperial dead enders because he was charismatic and had Force powers, and then got tooled by his boy toy because he underestimated the power of horny crazy. It meant that anyone could be a Jedi and anyone could be a Sith now, you just had to get up off your rear end and give it a try. The idea is fine, but that doesn't mean you can just... not provide any further info or characterization or elaborate on the character's history and connection with others, or their goals. We don't know anything about any of that by the end of TLJ and "lol he's a nobody" doesn't cut it.
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Jan 12, 2021 16:45
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Speleothing posted:So kylo ren definitely murdered baby yoda, right? actually it was revealed in one of the comics that Kylo Ren didn’t actually kill any of the other students! I think it was Snoke or the Knights of Ren or something
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Jan 12, 2021 16:52
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I care about Snoke in as much as I care about the setting in general. If all the work that the Rebel Alliance did just got undone, I'd be very interested in how that happen (of course, I'm more interested in whether the Rebel Alliance got anything done at all, the sequel trilogy doesn't at any point make clear whether there was ever a point when the galaxy was okay between emperors, which feels incredibly depressing). If you're gonna have this character who created a movement that has conquered the entire Galaxy and apparently destroyed everything that was good in the original trilogy, and apparently he played some extremely important part in putting one of the main characters with the most screentime on the terrible and dramatic path he's on, and in fact there's a lot of scenes of this one character talking and commanding his army and generally being a major driving force of the plot, maybe this character should matter? You give him this fancy eye-catching CGI appearance, and people aren't supposed to take note of him at all?
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Jan 12, 2021 18:35
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nine-gear crow posted:Poe blabs Holdo's plan out in the open over the radio to Finn and Rose when they're on the way back to the fleet. He literally starts going "YO GUYS, HERE'S HOLDO'S SECRET PLAN!" and then it cuts to a shot of DJ in the background perking up and suddenly taking a keen interest in things after seemingly being otherwise asleep or tuned out. but Poe doesn't know Holdo's plan, that's why he's mutinying. he knows there are transports being fuelled but doesn't know they're cloaked and that Holdo's gonna act as a big distraction while they fly to the planet. he only find out about the cloaking after the mutiny, after he speaks with Finn and Rose so how does DJ know about the cloaking? (if it's easy enough to guess, why didn't Poe guess/why wouldn't Hux have guessed it?)
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Jan 12, 2021 20:04
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Grendels Dad posted:The idea is fine, but that doesn't mean you can just... not provide any further info or characterization or elaborate on the character's history and connection with others, or their goals. We don't know anything about any of that by the end of TLJ and "lol he's a nobody" doesn't cut it. Why? What else do you need from Snoke? His character is no different from the Emperor in the OT when it comes to characterization nuance—they're both pretty cut-and-dry villains. From TFA we know Snoke wants to wipe out the Jedi and has tasked Kylo Ren to hunt down Skywalker to snuff out any remaining hope in the galaxy. Kylo fails that task, and we learn in TLJ that Snoke had been grooming Ben to realize the potential of his bloodline and become a new Vader but now doubts Ben's ability to do so because of how unbalanced he became after killing Han... so he takes matters into his own hands and manipulates Ben and Rey in order to get Rey into his Throne Room to try and cull the information of Skywalker's whereabouts himself and is successful. Then he dies because Ben is super horny for Rey.
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Jan 12, 2021 20:57
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indigi posted:actually it was revealed in one of the comics that Kylo Ren didn’t actually kill any of the other students! I think it was Snoke or the Knights of Ren or something It was a random bolt of lightning. Might've been Yoda. 
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Jan 12, 2021 20:59
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teagone posted:Why? What else do you need from Snoke? His character is no different from the Emperor in the OT when it comes to characterization nuance—they're both pretty cut-and-dry villains. From TFA we know Snoke wants to wipe out the Jedi and has tasked Kylo Ren to hunt down Skywalker to snuff out any remaining hope in the galaxy. Kylo fails that task, and we learn in TLJ that Snoke had been grooming Ben to realize the potential of his bloodline and become a new Vader but now doubts Ben's ability to do so because of how unbalanced he became after killing Han... so he takes matters into his own hands and manipulates Ben and Rey in order to get Rey into his Throne Room to try and cull the information of Skywalker's whereabouts himself and is successful. Then he dies because Ben is super horny for Rey. Uh, because there is a whole ton of stuff you could mine for potentially interesting content? For example, Snoke's role in turning Kyle is a complete afterthought. They made it an afterthought, it didn't have to be. Sheev slowly working Anakin in the PT lead to some of the best scenes in that trilogy, the ST couldn't even put Kyle and Snoke in a room together for more than two scenes. If you can't give a poo poo about your characters because their relationship and role are so blindingly obvious to everyone that you don't even need to show anything lest people get sick of seeing it again... maybe don't put these characters in your movie in the first place? This doesn't even touch on basic things that are left unclear, like "What even is the FO?"
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Jan 12, 2021 21:43
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That's stuff that should be established in the first of your three movie series but alas...
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Jan 12, 2021 21:50
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:That's stuff that should be established in the first of your three movie series but alas... Yeah, TFA set up things pretty badly... but taking even that bad set-up and throwing it in the bin is pretty bad, too. The ST is a trilogy of first movies, and they all suck at setting things up.
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Jan 12, 2021 21:55
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I'm not sure Snoke actually does anything except indulge in his hobby of molesting teenagers. By dissolving the Senate in ANH the Emperor does more than Snoke in a movie the Emperor isn't even in. Snoke's problem stems from that he's just a backup character for Kylo Ren, one that lets Kylo be a rescuable bad boy whose being forced to do bad things instead of a hosed up serial killer. He's the Cobra Commander to the Emperor's Space Hitler, except Cobra Commander actually does things and can explain where he gets his stuff.
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Jan 12, 2021 21:55
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Grendels Dad posted:Uh, because there is a whole ton of stuff you could mine for potentially interesting content? For example, Snoke's role in turning Kyle is a complete afterthought. They made it an afterthought, it didn't have to be. Sheev slowly working Anakin in the PT lead to some of the best scenes in that trilogy, the ST couldn't even put Kyle and Snoke in a room together for more than two scenes. If you can't give a poo poo about your characters because their relationship and role are so blindingly obvious to everyone that you don't even need to show anything lest people get sick of seeing it again... maybe don't put these characters in your movie in the first place? You should be comparing the Snoke/Kylo Ren dynamic to the OT's Emperor/Vader dynamic, not the PT's Sheev/Anakin character dynamic. Pitting Snoke against PT Sheev isn't a fair comparison considering how integral Sheev is to the PT's story. Snoke, by comparison, is just a prop for Ben's story, much how the Emperor was to Luke's in ROTJ. The comparison of character roles is almost 1:1 between Snoke/Emperor in TFA:ESB and TLJ:ROTJ. I feel like that's how you should approach Snoke's character. Expecting him to be super nuanced is fine, but I don't think it was necessary since the ST clearly is supposed to be Ben and Rey's story much how the OT was Vader and Luke's.
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Jan 12, 2021 22:37
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Lt. Danger posted:so how does DJ know about the cloaking? (if it's easy enough to guess, why didn't Poe guess/why wouldn't Hux have guessed it?) I haven't seen the movie in awhile, but doesn't the first order detect the cloaked transports effortlessly once they learn whats happening? From what I recall some officer just taps a few buttons and finds the ships. Why wouldn't they be actively scanning for cloaked ships all the time if it's that simple? Seems like a pretty bad plan if it entirely hinges on every ship in the first order fleet being incompetent. It'd be like if the nu-rebels went in to a head to head fleet battle and their secret plan was hoping the first order ships forgot to turn on their shields that day.
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Jan 12, 2021 22:38
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:He's the Cobra Commander to the Emperor's Space Hitler, except Cobra Commander actually does things and can explain where he gets his stuff. Ignoring the PT exists, how would you rate OT Emperor as a villain, then? Where did he get all his stuff? I think part of the issue people have with Snoke is there's not another prequel trilogy for the sequels to explain how Snoke got all his poo poo/came into power. The expectation of characterization isn't fair when someone like Sheev had a whole other trilogy to build up his character that we see in the OT. [edit] TFA should've been Episode 10, TLJ Episode 11, and TROS Episode 12. Then Disney could've leveraged the gap between Episode 6 and Episode 10 to showcase the downfall of Ben Solo, Luke's Order, and show how Snoke came into power in another "prequel" trilogy in like 2030 or something. teagone fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Jan 12, 2021 |
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Jan 12, 2021 22:43
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teagone posted:Ignoring the PT exists, how would you rate OT Emperor as a villain, then? Where did he get all his stuff? I think part of the issue people have with Snoke is there's not another prequel trilogy for the sequels to explain how Snoke got all his poo poo/came into power. The expectation of characterization isn't fair when someone like Sheev had a whole other trilogy to build up his character that we see in the OT. Exactly this; I felt like there was a whole missing trilogy between 6 and 7 from the start
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Jan 12, 2021 23:06
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there is no 'second prequel trilogy' because TFA is actually a sequel to RotS. you can tell because that's the order the films were released in.
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Jan 12, 2021 23:06
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The correct order to watch the films is 4/5/6/1/8
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Jan 12, 2021 23:10
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Would mainstream media be too confused if in 2015 Disney released Star Wars: Episode X - The Force Awakens?
teagone fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Jan 13, 2021 |
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Jan 12, 2021 23:10
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Ignorant Hick posted:I haven't seen the movie in awhile, but doesn't the first order detect the cloaked transports effortlessly once they learn whats happening? From what I recall some officer just taps a few buttons and finds the ships. Why wouldn't they be actively scanning for cloaked ships all the time if it's that simple? Seems like a pretty bad plan if it entirely hinges on every ship in the first order fleet being incompetent. It'd be like if the nu-rebels went in to a head to head fleet battle and their secret plan was hoping the first order ships forgot to turn on their shields that day. IIRC, he was a magic codebreaker who told them the code needed to detect the cloaked ships, since you can decode cloaking devices I guess.
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Jan 12, 2021 23:11
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I'd say the main reason that the sequel trilogy can't be scant about its background in the way that the original trilogy did is that it's not a new property fleshing out its world as it goes along, it's an old property that constantly blots out any subtle new things with extended references to the old trilogy. If you want to establish your new things as something more than just a crude copy, you gotta go stronger on them, and if you're going to constantly check up on old characters, you better check up on my favorite character: the galaxy. Leaving such a prominent character who is apparently playing an active onscreen role in driving the whole plot without a background just seems cheap and lovely. 
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Jan 12, 2021 23:29
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That set design is on point though.
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Jan 13, 2021 00:02
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SlothfulCobra posted:Leaving such a prominent character who is apparently playing an active onscreen role in driving the whole plot without a background just seems cheap and lovely. I'll disagree and say that Ben killing Snoke is what makes Snoke's character great. He ended up just being some would-be poser king and I love that; the revelation of his death plays up the whole Wizard of Oz theme surrounding his character really well and fueled one of the best character moments in the entire saga imo. Like, this probably isn't a great comparison, but imagine criticizing Heath Ledger's Joker in the Dark Knight because the character has no background—he's just a force of nature. I feel like the criticism of Snoke not being fleshed out is putting too much stock in exactly how important he is to the narrative, or what his role is in the bigger picture regarding the development of what is clearly Ben's story. teagone fucked around with this message at 00:39 on Jan 13, 2021 |
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Jan 13, 2021 00:11
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snoke was plagueis at some point. see also: same theme music, daisy ridley blurting it out at a con and abrams and kasdan trying to cover it up extremely awkwardly, and how it explains why he only came out of hiding after Palpatine died. see also also: the new TFA eu stuff that implied that Palpatine knew he was somewhere out in the unknown regions. and his name is snoke. snoke! this changed at some point, however.
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Jan 13, 2021 00:32
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Horizon Burning posted:snoke was plagueis at some point. see also: same theme music, daisy ridley blurting it out at a con and abrams and kasdan trying to cover it up extremely awkwardly, and how it explains why he only came out of hiding after Palpatine died. see also also: the new TFA eu stuff that implied that Palpatine knew he was somewhere out in the unknown regions. and his name is snoke. snoke! that might have been interesting but it would require at least 5 minutes of set up and dialogue to flesh out which can't be fit into a 4 hour movie about learning to respect authority
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Jan 13, 2021 01:10
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It would be cool to know who Snoke was, I guess. I think I would rather know why the end of Jedi was apparently meaningless, and our heroes are still on the run and still ragtag rebels Oh well, I'm sure THIS time they destroy the Sith lord it will take
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Jan 13, 2021 01:14
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the sole redeeming quality of RotS in the theater was getting a "my boy....I made sssssnoke" in the Sheev voice. That and getting tossed out for laughing and shouting "PALPATINE FUCKS Y'ALL"
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Jan 13, 2021 01:39
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Rev. Bleech_ posted:the sole redeeming quality of RotS in the theater was getting a "my boy....I made sssssnoke" in the Sheev voice. Mecha Sheev on his whacky Disnleyland anamatronic robo arm was the singular best part of that movie and I try my damnedest to mentally partition it from the rest of that gong show.
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Jan 13, 2021 02:02
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the zombie fleet rising from their graves is an all time top score on the old [looks cool]:[makes sense] ratio
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Jan 13, 2021 02:51
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teagone posted:I'll disagree and say that Ben killing Snoke is what makes Snoke's character great. He ended up just being some would-be poser king and I love that; the revelation of his death plays up the whole Wizard of Oz theme surrounding his character really well and fueled one of the best character moments in the entire saga imo. I don't think that's how he's portrayed though. He's some kind of fantastically powerful evil guy who somehow conquered the galaxy and seduced Kyle to the dark side, and he's got some kind of big ol' scheme going on, and that's the way he is right up until he dies in a big climactic scene that leads into the kamikaze ram, and then after he's dead, the movie just kinda awkwardly mills about, unsure of what's actually changed from his death, and it has to figure out a way to keep going and trundle towards another big huge action scene to do another climax and hopefully bring more emotional weight next time. I was tired of the movie by that point because it had already been two hours, and it felt like Snoke and his choreography class throne room was one of many ways the movie wasn't using its runtime efficiently. Horizon Burning posted:snoke was plagueis at some point. see also: same theme music, daisy ridley blurting it out at a con and abrams and kasdan trying to cover it up extremely awkwardly, and how it explains why he only came out of hiding after Palpatine died. see also also: the new TFA eu stuff that implied that Palpatine knew he was somewhere out in the unknown regions. and his name is snoke. snoke! I find it hard to believe that was really a plan just because Disney seems otherwise so terrified of dealing with prequel references. Also apparently in the EU Plagueis wasn't human, which meant there was this interesting thing that reinforced Palpatine's racism because after he killed his master he pushed forward to establish human supremacy throughout the galaxy. Plagueis's species was one of the ones that went separatist and was devastated at losing the wars as well. It'd be disappointing if Disney totally nullified that.
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Jan 13, 2021 03:49
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SlothfulCobra posted:His insubordination at the beginning apparently just wiped out the entire bomber force for little to no benefit, while his insubordination and attempted coup later on had literally no effect. As I recall, his insubordination took out the dreadnaught with long range weapons that would have taken out the fleet during the chase if Poe hadn't destroyed it before they jumped.
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Jan 13, 2021 04:12
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What Snoke is and what he was is part and parcel with what the First Order is and what it wants. The sequel trilogy just sorta leaves all of that vague, relying mainly on imagery and spectacle to distract you for the runtime. He's creepy and predatory and doesn't have any internal life or motivations, and hopes your lingering affection for Palpatine, a similar character with thinly sketched motivations and desires, will carry you.
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Jan 13, 2021 04:25
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teagone posted:Ignoring the PT exists, how would you rate OT Emperor as a villain, then? Where did he get all his stuff? Pretty effective for his role. And he got all his stuff from the Galactic Republic. Just with the information from one scene in A New Hope the Empire arose from the Republic. The old structure of the Republic existed along side the Empire but with greatly reduced power until the senate itself was dissolved. And it's pretty easy to understand because it pretty much what happened with Rome. In the ST I have no idea what going on. Is the galaxy heavily balkanised? Is the New Republic dealing with the Hutts and the First Order? Or are there systems that feel they were better off in the Empire and are joining the First Order? There is a wealth of interesting potential storylines for the galactic state but it feels like just wanted rebels vs stormtroopers and any other details is over thinking things.
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Jan 13, 2021 04:25
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kilus aof posted:Pretty effective for his role. And he got all his stuff from the Galactic Republic. Just with the information from one scene in A New Hope the Empire arose from the Republic. The old structure of the Republic existed along side the Empire but with greatly reduced power until the senate itself was dissolved. And it's pretty easy to understand because it pretty much what happened with Rome. Mando, Resistance, and the new canon books/games and have consistently shown that the New Republic is/was hilariously out of its depth and never really got its poo poo together to work as a proper post-Emprie government outside of like a few of the core worlds and just coasted on "Hey, at least we're not Palpatine" inertia to the point where something like the First Order coming along was practically inevitable.
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Jan 13, 2021 04:47
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McCloud posted:As I recall, his insubordination took out the dreadnaught with long range weapons that would have taken out the fleet during the chase if Poe hadn't destroyed it before they jumped. this is rationalization. nobody knew the FO could track them through hyperspace, so this isn’t why he sacrificed all the bombers; he did it to prove he’s mister big dick
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Jan 13, 2021 04:54
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