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I don't really shield wall in general, although that party was apparently pretty badly built (esp. to deal with snakes). I didn't realize cleavers were that good against the early/midgame stuff - haven't played in a while and I remembered axes and maces being where it was at. But maces don't stun as reliably as I remember and I think they bumped up the fatigue on the bop too ? I dunno. I do know I did not kill snakes fast enough  .
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Jan 22, 2021 05:23
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Snakes have the same problem a lot of Monster Enemies do: They can put you in deep poo poo surprisingly quickly if you're not careful (especially with how much armor-ignore they have) and they don't really reward you for fighting them like fighting people does.
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Jan 22, 2021 05:28
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Kobal2 posted:I don't really shield wall in general, although that party was apparently pretty badly built (esp. to deal with snakes). I didn't realize cleavers were that good against the early/midgame stuff - haven't played in a while and I remembered axes and maces being where it was at. But maces don't stun as reliably as I remember and I think they bumped up the fatigue on the bop too ? I dunno. I do know I did not kill snakes fast enough Maces are good because they're pretty well balanced in terms of doing armour damage, doing penetration damage through armour, and the fact that each hit drains enemy stamina is helpful as well. The stun can be helpful in niche situations but late game you usually don't really want to be wasting turns stunning things. As a bludgeoning weapon they're also very effective vs ancient dead. Cleavers are particularly good early on (and against beasts in general) because they do the highest raw damage of any weapon, but do very low damage vs armour and have very limited ability to penetrate armour. Late game most meaningfully difficult opponents are significantly armoured, or immune to bleeds as in the case of undead/ancient dead, so you generally don't want to have cleaver specialists with the exception of maybe a duelist with an Orc cleaver or a particularly good named cleaver; but early on when most of your human opponents are wearing little or no armour, and also vs beasts they do really good damage.
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Jan 22, 2021 05:56
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Kobal2 posted:But maces don't stun as reliably as I remember idk if they ever nerfed the stun chance but you might be remembering a later game company that had mace mastery on its mace bros and comparing it to your new early game company that doesn't have mastery yet. mastery increases the stun chance to 100%
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Jan 22, 2021 08:04
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The Lord Bude posted:Maces are good because they're pretty well balanced in terms of doing armour damage, doing penetration damage through armour, and the fact that each hit drains enemy stamina is helpful as well. The stun can be helpful in niche situations but late game you usually don't really want to be wasting turns stunning things. As a bludgeoning weapon they're also very effective vs ancient dead. I am trying to work in a quick hands whip/cleaver duellist or allocate that job to a high-MAttk shield bro. Would you say the difference is enough to make it worth dropping your cleaver when facing ancient dead and using a spare 1h mace? I do think cleavers give good results vs necrosavants, wiedergangers despite the lack of bleed.
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Jan 22, 2021 09:57
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The beheading confirm against the undead gives cleavers a solid spot, regardless. You just have a guy who's job it is to finish off the wounded ones.
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Jan 22, 2021 12:33
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How's the one bomb against snakes? I never think to use bombs or nets or poisons, even though they do seem to make a big difference. The one in question I am talking about is the one that lets you leave zones of control. (Smoke bomb?) Have one on guys that are vulnerable, so they can run like hell if grabbed. That seems like it should work. These two recent conversations blend very nicely, regarding the value of stun and how to fight snakes: If you have maceman specialists, bop snakes. Blitz them, stun them, then close in everyone for the kill. They all have a ton of armor ignore and backstabber, so exponentially more dangerous the more of them are attacking you at once. Make them attack less often and they're not that scary. The 100% stun is better than only probably relying on damage killing them.
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Jan 22, 2021 13:08
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dogstile posted:We take their armour and weapons off to see their stats without any adjustments and use previous knowledge of what we roughly want+how many stars are in a stat to determine if we'll want to keep them. Sometimes i'll even try to make a bad brother work. This is why I love this game, because just like xcom, the odds will sometimes be ever in your favour even if they shouldn't and they make memories like this.
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Jan 22, 2021 13:15
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Bombs are prohibitively expensive but they work fine. I actually give a lot of my backliners who are low level nets to throw once the lines clash. In comparison nets are far better cost wise and if half my backline has nets, it means i'm pretty much always ready to dagger party some hapless leader.
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Jan 22, 2021 13:16
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Where do I buy nets? I saw one early in the game and feel like I've never seen them since.
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Jan 22, 2021 14:04
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Genghis Cohen posted:I am trying to work in a quick hands whip/cleaver duellist or allocate that job to a high-MAttk shield bro. Would you say the difference is enough to make it worth dropping your cleaver when facing ancient dead and using a spare 1h mace? I do think cleavers give good results vs necrosavants, wiedergangers despite the lack of bleed. I've done a lot of playing around with whips, and ultimately I think they are useful in certain specific situations, but I definitely don't think you build a bro specifically as a whip user. What I've ended up doing is giving my sergeants both polearm mastery and cleaver mastery, but not quick hands - I've tried doing just the whip and only using the banner when I need to rally but I always regret not having a polearm when I do that, so it tends to be the sergeant mostly using a polearm and only pulling the whip out for certain fights. I also tend to give my gunners rally the troops, so the main sergeant only comes to certain very specific fights . When I played gladiators and was limited to only 12 men total; I had a gunner as my main sergeant and I never used either a whip or the banner. Whips to me make the most sense as a utility tool on the back line (and you're generally either using them for the disarm effect, or you're fighting geists which only have one hitpoint ; so you don't need duelist.) As for Cleaver duelists, they are pretty good. An orc cleaver (or a named cleaver if you get lucky) is a very good weapon for a duelist and arguably the highest damage potential weapon for a duelist (but maces are only just behind, win out in certain fights and don't have the steep stamina requirements of an orc cleaver). The choice between a cleaver or a mace comes down to whether you have a guy with the extra stamina needed to use orc cleavers effectively, and what named weapons you find. Both are excellent, and you don't need to swap out an orc cleaver or named cleaver for a mace when fighting undead or ancient dead. Both will be fine and the decapitation of a cleaver is useful for making sure zombies stay down. There is no reason not to give your cleaver duelist a whip as well - most of the time you'll be using the cleaver, but the whip can be useful in an emergency to disarm someone, or for killing geists because they like to hang back and can be hard to get to (and they have infinite ranged defence, so you'll only ever have 5% chance to hit in ranged combat). Giving them quick hands is a waste though. You don't have a spare perk slot to throw away with a 1h duelist, and frankly in general very few archetypes are going to be swapping weapons often enough to justify quick hands - with a cleaver duelist you'll usually go into the fight knowing whether you want the whip or the cleaver, maybe you swap once to switch from the whip to the cleaver once the necrosavants or geists are dead. With a sergeant you can swap to the banner and rally in the same turn without quick hands. Or you can be another weapon, and switch to the whip to disarm in a single turn. The only build where you really do need quick hands in my opinion is throwing weapon specialists (or throwing/archer hybrids) and that's because with javelins in stacks of 5 and the potential to attack 2-3 times per turn you're swapping out empty stacks of javelins frequently. And on a final note, necrosavants bleed unlike other ancient dead, but the bleed effect is cancelled when 9 lives is triggered. Whips are good on bare skin but the main reason to bring whips vs necrosavants is disarming - if you disarm them they can't do meaningful damage to you and therefore can't heal themselves.
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Jan 22, 2021 14:11
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Actually attacking people with a whip is something you do as a move of opportunity, it's mostly for disarming. Though I also find the whip can work surprisingly well at loving up orc berserkers and young if I can't get my cleaver guy close enough to fight them in melee at the moment. The real issue is that bleed damage does the damage after the enemy takes their turn, so killing an enemy by bleedout isn't as useful as killing them by just...hitting them in the face, which prevents them getting to attack again. Still, if I need to disarm a Warlord and then I've got 4 AP left throwing a quick lash at a Berserker or something to stack some extra damage at the same time is nice and it's not hard to get a shot off with the 3 tiles reach.
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Jan 22, 2021 14:53
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The Lord Bude posted:And on a final note, necrosavants bleed unlike other ancient dead, but the bleed effect is cancelled when 9 lives is triggered. Whips are good on bare skin but the main reason to bring whips vs necrosavants is disarming - if you disarm them they can't do meaningful damage to you and therefore can't heal themselves. The other good reason to bring whips is that they still do some damage, so a necrosavant that has already triggered nine lives can be killed by a single whip strike from a distance. I've found whips are useful in both necrosavant and ancient dead fights for that reason as well as disarming. You can disarm the dangerous ones and finish off the severely wounded ones without ever going near them. I say ancient dead here as well, despite their armour, because I've found that whips are useful for a common edge case against ancient dead, when their armour is destroyed but they still have a few HP left. Instead of letting them get another turn in to land hard-hitting attacks, a whip's low damage will still be enough to finish them off because their HP pool is so low, and the whip's long range means they can reliably be in position to attack whichever ancient dead have lost their armour along the line.
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Jan 22, 2021 14:55
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Counterintuitively, I find whips to be very helpful against alps, even though they do low damage and alps don't bleed. Because of their range, I can get hits on them to alter their formation, while not risking my own.
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Jan 22, 2021 14:58
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Megasabin posted:Where do I buy nets? I saw one early in the game and feel like I've never seen them since. Fishing villages usually have a ton.
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Jan 22, 2021 15:09
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Veryslightlymad posted:Counterintuitively, I find whips to be very helpful against alps, even though they do low damage and alps don't bleed. Because of their range, I can get hits on them to alter their formation, while not risking my own. I agree, I forgot, to mention Alps because you fight them so rarely that I kind of forgot about them but they are definitely a fight where whips are very good. vyelkin posted:I say ancient dead here as well, despite their armour, because I've found that whips are useful for a common edge case against ancient dead, when their armour is destroyed but they still have a few HP left. Instead of letting them get another turn in to land hard-hitting attacks, a whip's low damage will still be enough to finish them off because their HP pool is so low, and the whip's long range means they can reliably be in position to attack whichever ancient dead have lost their armour along the line. This is true but it's another of those situations where yes a certain strategy can be effective, but other options are just as good or better. I wouldn't choose to bring a whip user to an ancient dead fight over a thrower with throwing axes, or a gunner or probably even a dude with a swordlance, but if I needed another body for my back line to replace say a dedicated archer and I didn't have any of the other builds handy but I had a whipman then I'd bring the whip. That being said I tend to bring my sergeant to ancient dead fights, especially if there is a priest, and my sergeant generally has a whip.
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Jan 22, 2021 15:11
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dogstile posted:Fishing villages usually have a ton. And as a further note you can combine them with spider silk at a taxidermist to craft heavy nets that are harder to break free from. Like bombs though I still find them kinda awkward and rarely use them.
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Jan 22, 2021 15:13
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My problem with both nets and bombs is that I forget I have them and so never use them. The main place where I use them is in the arena, it turns out, especially when you're up against arena opponents with one hard-to-hit enemy like a swordmaster. Take a duelist in, give them a net or a bomb, and have them throw it on turn one or two so I don't forget it's there.
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Jan 22, 2021 15:23
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Genghis Cohen posted:I am trying to work in a quick hands whip/cleaver duellist or allocate that job to a high-MAttk shield bro. Would you say the difference is enough to make it worth dropping your cleaver when facing ancient dead and using a spare 1h mace? I do think cleavers give good results vs necrosavants, wiedergangers despite the lack of bleed. I have used whip/cleaver generalists to great effect; disarm is just so strong and the ability to swap to 2H cleaver for 2 attacks (or 3 with berserk) pumps out serious damage vs unarmored enemies, as others have stated. Unholds in particular. Vs ancient undead they typically would disarm backrow pike guys while I took them out with reach weapons then clean up with the 2H cleaver. I would run a couple of them in most fights. Disarm just too good, though this was before the nerf. Typical build (pasted from filthyrobot spreadsheet): Colossus Gifted Quick Hands Cleaver Spec Recover Battleforged | Nimble Underdog Brawny | Killing Frenzy Berserk for AP Killing Frenzy | Backstabber e: just saw you mentioned cleaver duelist specifically. Like Bude said I don't think you can introduce new perks to a duelist build very well, they need every perk they can get. The whip with 2H cleaver above was terrific though Toozler fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Jan 22, 2021 |
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Jan 22, 2021 18:17
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Megasabin posted:Where do I buy nets? I saw one early in the game and feel like I've never seen them since. Fishing villages always have 3 or 4 to sell. Also, firebombs only cost 3 times as much as nets, while loving up to 6x more people (assuming you keep them penned inside the gently caress Zone). Firebombs are goooood, y'all. Especially against skellingtons who never break formation.
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Jan 22, 2021 22:44
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vyelkin posted:My problem with both nets and bombs is that I forget I have them and so never use them. I tend to give my pikeneers deep pockets/quick hands (it's not like they need a ton of early perks) ; and I tend to have more pikeneers than archers in my back row because 1) past a certain point, enemy archers don't matter and 2) your own archers take foreveeeeer to become any good. But a backrow filled with blokes with xbows for random cross-your-fingers plinking in the first couple turns, then longaxes and the occasional pot or net ? That's just good no matter the stats. I don't think pots can even deviate. Remember how grenades ruled in xcom ? Yeah, that. Kobal2 fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Jan 22, 2021 |
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Jan 22, 2021 22:49
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Toozler posted:Whip & Cleaver Stuff The Lord Bude posted:Whip & Cleaver Stuff Thank you both very much. As with so many builds, the limiting factor is finding that perfect recruit who can hit the MAttk/MDef numbers while still pumping Fatigue constantly. I may well end up taking Quick Hands if I don't get a suitable unique 1handed cleaver (because that's my trigger for taking Duelist). Rgr that a utility whip in the back pocket is something that's worth having even without QH. I am a big fan of QH in general now, I've only used it previously on throwers and the fatigue-neutral 2hander build (which I found good but not as fun/exciting as a classic 2hander who could AOE). My experiment in this game is to take QH on most 2handers - putting a goblin pike or mastery-appropriate 2-tile weapon in their pack, along with a dagger. It is an additional Fatigue cost and obviously a Perk opportunity cost. I cut Indomitable; my dedicated shield tanks and one greatsword 2hander still get it for those Unhold or Orc fights. The ability to move and strike 2 tiles away if necessary, or to Berserk and swing twice even if one target is distant, is terrific. You can even take 2 steps to base someone up if necessary, and still shank them with the dagger! Just a lot of fun. That makes my current run the following builds: Classic 2Handers, with Quick Hands (most Battleforged; I made one Nimble for a laugh) Shield Carriers (most Battleforged with Maces, I am making one Nimble to use Daggers and Overwhelm) Dedicated Polearm (ie Swordlance) users (I pump Resolve and take Fearsome, so these are also 1-2 Sergeants, and can carry back up whips) Throwers (also carry a bow/crossbow - one neat idea I want to try is a Firelance as a backup weapon/last ditch melee) Dedicated Archers (I know throwing has better damage, but it's so much fun to snipe Necromancers/Hexen) On top of those archetypes I'm looking for a good recruit to use 2H Mace/Qatal dagger, and a Fencer. I've got one specialist Brute Headhunter to use flails, but his MAttk makes me a bit down on him, we'll see. Do you get named 1handed flails, beside the 3-headed flail? I always find the 3HF very disappointing, seems like the individual tiny hits never go through armour well with Duelist; I also don't think they would all benefit from the guaranteed head-hit of HH following Lash.
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Jan 23, 2021 09:49
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For my throwers I actually like to give them a nomad sling in addition to their two stacks of throwing weapons. - Long-ranged enough to frequently snipe casters, or plink at approaching foes on turn one - Daze is actually super handy - Damage sucks less than you'd think - In early-midgame it being ammo-free isn't bad either - Saves a precious, precious perk point vs making thrower-bow hybrids
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Jan 30, 2021 07:50
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I have a really good ironman run going, some really strong Matk bros, just a bit short on money and still havent developed a number 2 archer yet! Day 30 or something so anything can happen.
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Jan 30, 2021 09:50
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I find slings to be really bad early game because they have the worst accuracy so they exacerbate the problems low level ranged dudes have. Best thing for a low level ranged dude is attacking at 2 tile range with a javelin, since that will have the highest chance to hit of any ranged weapon at point blank range. Heavy slings are fine in the later game but the problem for me is there are very, very few fights where 3 stacks aren’t enough - pretty much only the library and the monolith and the goblin city; but a sling is a fine choice for those (and a drat good idea for taking out priests in the monolith). These days though I primarily go with hybrid javelin/bow users so they’ll have 2 javelin stacks and a bow with 14 arrows. Vs ancient dead I switch the javelins for axes and add a third stack in place of the bow or a heavy sling.
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Jan 30, 2021 10:51
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GreyjoyBastard posted:For my throwers I actually like to give them a nomad sling in addition to their two stacks of throwing weapons. I too enjoy this, though some of it is just wanting to make slings work because I enjoy the thought of people getting bonked on the head with a rock. Named Slings when, Overhype?
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Jan 30, 2021 14:53
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To be clear, daze is -25% init (eh), -25% max fatigue (middling-handy against living foes but functionally an init debuff most of the time), and -25% melee damage (ooooowns). Admittedly you get the same effect in Serious Fights from flash pots, but bonking a couple pike skeletons or whatever in a routine battle goes a long way.
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Feb 2, 2021 01:36
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In the time it took you to bonk them on the head so to speak you could have actually killed several of them with throwing axes. A 25% chance of inflicting a debuff is absolutely not worth the crippled accuracy and damage of using a sling. If you absolutely had to debuff an ancient pikeman rather than killing a whip or a throwable is a far more reliable and effective way of doing that. Better yet, have gunners/swordlances with overwhelm, then they can’t hit you. But I maintain the best way to deal with ancient dead is to get the front line destroyed as quickly as possible so that you can move in and attack the pikes; or use front line AOE that can hit the pikes (greatsword, bardiche, front line swordlancers) The high accuracy of throwing weapons means that throwers can reliably take out even the shield carrying ancient dead.
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Feb 2, 2021 03:38
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Slings are great because i don't run out of ammo 4 fights in on my expedition because i've thrown my entire armoury at the first few fights 
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Feb 2, 2021 14:38
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dogstile posted:Slings are great because i don't run out of ammo 4 fights in on my expedition because i've thrown my entire armoury at the first few fights It takes a hell of a lot of fights to run out of ammo. And if it does become an issue I hear there’s a super adorable kid just looking to get his foot in the door with his first job who can help get you more.
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Feb 2, 2021 15:35
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Bah! Humbug!
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Feb 2, 2021 15:44
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Genghis Cohen posted:Do you get named 1handed flails, beside the 3-headed flail? I always find the 3HF very disappointing, seems like the individual tiny hits never go through armour well with Duelist; I also don't think they would all benefit from the guaranteed head-hit of HH following Lash. There are some named flails (1H I'm sure, 2H maybe ?), but flails in general don't do well in the endgame for a few reasons : - most named flails come with the "+25% chance to hit head" attribute. Thank you I'm already hitting 100% head hits, that's the whole point of a flail, game. I assume that replaces some other good stat the weapon could have rolled, too. - by the mid/endgame your wrecking crew will all have 80+ melee accuracy (or 70+ and pikes/swords), so the target having a shield won't matter unless they shieldwall, but flails don't ignore shield walls, only passive shields. And the targets you *really* want to kill with a quickness are the ones who don't have shields to begin with ! Typically if you're trying to deal with the shielded tarpits at all beyond the mopping up phase of a skirmish, you're doing something wrong. - Flails have bad damage stats/high fatigue costs to balance their special abilities. Shield tarpits also have big armour, big hitpoints. Because they're tarpits. See above. - endgame targets either wear heavy head armour, which means you can't two-shot them with flail hits like you can thugs/brigands in the early game, or are goblins that you can two shot with any weapon. Hell, even tier 2 nomads always seem to come with decent hats. Which means your one flail guy has to spend multiple turns hacking at some dude's head and here's the big kicker : the rest of your bros can't help him because *they're* not hitting head 100% of the time and any hit that lands armor (so 3/4th of hits give or take) is just wasted. The only person(s) that can support your flail dude is either another flail dude, or a dagger dude. There is still *some* token utility to flail boys in noble army fights because pikemen/billhooks and sometimes Man With A Crossbow come to war with a bandana, but if you've got a dude in melee with those guys *at all* you've already cracked the code and a solid 2H hit or two would bisect them just as well, they don't really have stellar body armour. Or any type of duelist for that matter. EDIT : that being said the 3H flail has one niche application, which is that each head can trigger overwhelm and fearsome (if only it could also do reach advantage...). So you could use it as a debuff weapon for stuff that can't be whipped. Not that debuffs are super great. EDIT 2 : oh, and yeah headhunter is awkward with it, each individual head can toggle on/use up headhunter but since each is small damage the multiplicative factor doesn't do much. Kobal2 fucked around with this message at 06:20 on Feb 3, 2021 |
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Feb 3, 2021 06:10
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The Lord Bude posted:In the time it took you to bonk them on the head so to speak you could have actually killed several of them with throwing axes. A 25% chance of inflicting a debuff is absolutely not worth the crippled accuracy and damage of using a sling. I think we're talking past each other just a bit: I am, mostly, advocating for slings as a first-round alternative to bows. Once the baddies are within regular throwing range I switch to axes or javelins.
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Feb 3, 2021 06:27
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GreyjoyBastard posted:I think we're talking past each other just a bit: I am, mostly, advocating for slings as a first-round alternative to bows. Once the baddies are within regular throwing range I switch to axes or javelins. Ok that’s not quite what I thought you meant. I suppose you can do that if you’ve made a pure thrower; but these days I almost always use hybrids. My guys get a bow, one stack of 14 arrows, 2 stacks of javelins and of course quick hands. I’d much much rather have the bow in that scenario over the sling; ancient dead not withstanding.
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Feb 3, 2021 12:31
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Kobal2 posted:There are some named flails (1H I'm sure, 2H maybe ?), but flails in general don't do well in the endgame for a few reasons :
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Feb 3, 2021 14:17
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Is the DLC important for this, or just more of the same for veterans? Thinking of getting the base game during the sale. I've been discouraged by the art style since I first heard of it, but everything else seems right up my alley. E: I find the colours and general art to be stunning, but I'm less sure on the matryoshka look of your dudes. THE BAR fucked around with this message at 15:41 on Feb 12, 2021 |
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Feb 12, 2021 15:39
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THE BAR posted:Is the DLC important for this, or just more of the same for veterans? Thinking of getting the base game during the sale. I've been discouraged by the art style since I first heard of it, but everything else seems right up my alley. You don't need the DLC, but if you like the base game it ends up being a must buy. The matryoshka look ends up being pretty easy to stop noticing as it gives a lot of good information .
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Feb 12, 2021 15:44
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THE BAR posted:Is the DLC important for this, or just more of the same for veterans? Thinking of getting the base game during the sale. I've been discouraged by the art style since I first heard of it, but everything else seems right up my alley. The DLC adds a lot.
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Feb 12, 2021 16:11
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stopgap1 posted:You don't need the DLC, but if you like the base game it ends up being a must buy. The matryoshka look ends up being pretty easy to stop noticing as it gives a lot of good information . The Lord Bude posted:The DLC adds a lot. It does sound a bit less Paradox-y in its approach, and more of just being good additions when you want to advance the game a bit. Think I'll go for the base game to start with, as there's no real sale going on with the DLC right now. Thanks! Game's just looking like something I need right now, as the RPG kit I'm working on is causing me some trouble during the lockdown. This could be a good palate cleanser.
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Feb 12, 2021 16:16
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THE BAR posted:It does sound a bit less Paradox-y in its approach, and more of just being good additions when you want to advance the game a bit. Think I'll go for the base game to start with, as there's no real sale going on with the DLC right now. Thanks! The DLCs expand the map a bit and just add more "stuff" rather than some dramatic change to the narrative. More enemy factions you can fight (Barbarians, Southerners), an additional possible crisis, some more origins (which you should mostly only get into once you've gotten the hang of the game anyway), giving you a reason to fight beasts outside of contracts, lets you source some weapons/weapon types that were somewhat difficult to get in the base game, etc. I got really into the game because I think it did a pretty good job of "story telling" in connecting you to your unit in addition to having a pretty cool combat system. I just love the idea of there being so many unit backgrounds/"perks" that interact in so many ways, and I hope if anyone imitates BB they steal that part of it.
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Feb 12, 2021 16:35
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