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Wheeee posted:the primary conceit of Jeffrey's drive is making travel fast enough to be plot-convenient and ships small enough to fulfill the space opera fantasy, we had nuclear drive designs during the cold war that could make establishing colonies on Mars and farther out possible, just not as convenient and cool as in the Expanse with little ships full of plucky little bands of heroes This is true at the plot device level, but also hashing out the details at the in-universe level (as well as comparing to real life) is part and parcel of the hard scifi experience.
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Jan 23, 2021 02:03
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Wheeee posted:the primary conceit of Jeffrey's drive is making travel fast enough to be plot-convenient and ships small enough to fulfill the space opera fantasy, we had nuclear drive designs during the cold war that could make establishing colonies on Mars and farther out possible, just not as convenient and cool as in the Expanse with little ships full of plucky little bands of heroes Yeah it's a hand-wave for the story to happen. But also point A to point B is constant acceleration, flip, constant deceleration. It's the simplest way to accomplish space travel and provides a comfortable 0.3~1g for the occupants of a ship. 404notfound posted:One thing I've always wondered about the flip-and-burn is the risk of something going wrong during deceleration. If the reactor stops working for whatever reason, you've now got a fairly sizable hunk of metal flying at thousands of kilometers per second directly toward a station. I wonder what sort of protocols are in place to mitigate that risk Also back to this for a moment, if the reactor gives out during a deceleration burn you'll maintain the same velocity. You're just going to arrive at where the station is going to be at a later time, but as someone else mentioned, everything in space is always in motion, so the station isn't there yet. You'll fly past and never interact with the station in any way. If you're close enough that you could feasibly see the station (even as a tiny dot in the distance), your deceleration burn is probably done anyway and you're just on thrusters to finish the rest.
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Jan 23, 2021 02:12
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Baron Fuzzlewhack posted:
All that, and even if everything went perfectly right they still didn't aim to stop exactly where the destination station would be at the time of arrival, so they don't melt it with the exhaust.
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Jan 23, 2021 02:27
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vessbot posted:I'm not sure I'm understanding your post right, but what I think I'm getting is a choice between 1) constant very-low acceleration, and 2) periods of higher acceleration punctuated by periods of float. Well, those aren't the only choices. There is also 3) constant higher acceleration, and you get there faster. Yeah but that's only usually done when you're in an emergency because it's at the very least uncomfortable, and in some cases very harmful, to the occupants.
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Jan 23, 2021 02:35
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These are some good points, I assumed that the nav system would aim toward where the dock would be at end of deceleration, but the deceleration dropping to 0 would also throw off that calculation, so chances are it would just miss. And if it does happen to be on a direct path that's not influenced by the acceleration, it would probably be far enough away or going slow enough that the collision risk is minimal. It's fun sometimes following these fictional conceits to their logical conclusions. And if it can stand up to the rigors of people posting about it on the internet, it's probably some pretty solid world-building.
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Jan 23, 2021 02:38
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Nail Rat posted:Yeah but that's only usually done when you're in an emergency because it's at the very least uncomfortable, and in some cases very harmful, to the occupants. No, there is no mention in the books or TV show (or real life) of any harm or discomfort from long periods of acceleration. See Earthers spending their entire lives at 1G, or Belters their entire life (like on Ceres) at 1/3 G. Discomfort and harm comes from high amounts of acceleration (2 G, 3 G, 10G, etc.; or lower numbers for Belters) not duration. High amount G is what happens in emergencies/combat. High duration of 1 (Earther) or 1/3 (Belter) G is what happens during constant-burn cruise (as well as existence on planets and stations). vessbot fucked around with this message at 02:48 on Jan 23, 2021 |
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Jan 23, 2021 02:44
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404notfound posted:These are some good points, I assumed that the nav system would aim toward where the dock would be at end of deceleration, but the deceleration dropping to 0 would also throw off that calculation, so chances are it would just miss. And if it does happen to be on a direct path that's not influenced by the acceleration, it would probably be far enough away or going slow enough that the collision risk is minimal. Like someone else pointed out recently, even in real life they specifically aim to arrive at some point with some offset from the destination station; then, once stabilized, proceed (with maneuvering thrusters, not main drive) at low rates for final approach and docking.
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Jan 23, 2021 02:47
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vessbot posted:No, there is no mention in the books or TV show (or real life) of any harm or discomfort from long periods of acceleration. See Earthers spending their entire lives at 1G, or Belters their entire life (like on Ceres) at 1/3 G. This is right. The books always mention that most ships typically cruise at constant .3 g acceleration. Earthers can handle more comfortably but it probably saves on fuel efficiency or whatever.
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Jan 23, 2021 02:50
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vessbot posted:No, there is no mention in the books or TV show (or real life) of any harm or discomfort from long periods of acceleration. See Earthers spending their entire lives at 1G, or Belters their entire life (like on Ceres) at 1/3 G. We're talking past one another here because when you say "higher" acceleration I'm not sure what you mean inherently. It's going to be a very specific set of routes where you can constantly accelerate/decelerate within a certain amount of G, though. quote:This is right. The books always mention that most ships typically cruise at constant .3 g acceleration. Earthers can handle more comfortably but it probably saves on fuel efficiency or whatever. Cruise yes, but they spend good portions of the trip on the float too. If you're going at exactly .3 G acceleration and you slow down at the same rate with no breaks, there is exactly one length of trip that will cover. And things are usually different distances based on orbits. Nail Rat fucked around with this message at 03:04 on Jan 23, 2021 |
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Jan 23, 2021 02:59
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I dunno what to tell you. What you're saying is not what the books say. It also doesn't make sense to me, an engine like the Epstein drive negates all the orbital mechanics that we use for real space missions and you can more or less just fly straight toward your destination instead of doing Hohmann transfers. I'm not a physicist though, just going off books, Kerbal, and http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/torchships.php E: Specific link: http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/torchships.php#id--Brachistochrone_Equations Grand Fromage fucked around with this message at 03:11 on Jan 23, 2021 |
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Jan 23, 2021 03:09
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I'll have to look back at the books but I was pretty sure they spent significant time on the float, and burns were still planned out based on orbital mechanics. Gravity does still matter, constant acceleration or no. I realized I was thinking wrong about .3 G only being useful for a specific distance though. Obviously how long you burn matters,  Also I am super into KSP right now...I have a problem. Nail Rat fucked around with this message at 04:12 on Jan 23, 2021 |
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Jan 23, 2021 03:37
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Nail Rat posted:I'll have to look back at the books but I was pretty sure they spent significant time on the float, and burns were still planned out based on orbital mechanics. Gravity does still matter, constant acceleration or no. I realized I was thinking wrong about .3 G only being useful for a specific distance though. Obviously how long you burn matters, No, they rarely go on the float. When they were all on the float in the slow zone inside the ring space, characters were always complaining about it and wishing they could have thrust gravity again. The only time I can remember them doing it during travel might have been when they were going out to the ring, which is around Neptune orbit. And even then it more to save reaction mass in case they had to do some unexpected maneuvering or fighting when they got there. The only big exception was the Nauvoo. The Epstein drive might be super efficient, but it's still not efficient enough to burn the whole way to another solar system. The Nauvoo was going to burn for a year or so, then float most of the way there, doing a slow down burn when they got to their destination. That's why they build it with the drum that they could spin up to provide gravity during that long voyage.
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Jan 23, 2021 04:27
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I've read/seen/played so many sci-fi things that I just accept whatever the magic wand drive is in that setting, as long as its consistant. Opens portals through hell? Sure! Actually creates a bubble of real space around the ship so i can go faster than light? Why not? Literally just straight up faster than light travel? Lets do it. I do not know enough about physics and engineering and math to see problems with it. And I'm just a vast majority of people are like that.
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Jan 23, 2021 04:30
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Nail Rat posted:Also I am super into KSP right now...I have a problem. Not playing Kerbal is the real problem.
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Jan 23, 2021 04:34
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twistedmentat posted:I've read/seen/played so many sci-fi things that I just accept whatever the magic wand drive is in that setting, as long as its consistant. Opens portals through hell? Sure! Actually creates a bubble of real space around the ship so i can go faster than light? Why not? Literally just straight up faster than light travel? Lets do it. My favorite sci-fi propulsion system is from star carrier, in which the space fighters project artificial black holes in front of their ship, but constantly turning them on and off again, like multiple times a second or whatever.
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Jan 23, 2021 04:40
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Nail Rat posted:We're talking past one another here because when you say "higher" acceleration I'm not sure what you mean inherently. You're right, with too many relative words it's easy to get lost. Let's go back to your original post: A. You ended with "a tiny bit" that's nearly indistinguishable from zero G, and is too low for maintaining the entire trip. ("If you constantly do just a tiny bit, there'll be no appreciable gravity and living in nothing but zero G is hard even on belters.") B. As an alternative, you have a higher amount that "makes life more comfortable that there are periods where they're thrusting enough for gravity comfortable to the occupants." Let's call this one the "more comfortable" one. For this same amount, you say it would have to be interrupted with periods of float, for which there's no reason to say. I'd say what's most comfortable is what home planets or space stations are at, and obviously this does not need to be interrupted. C. In the later post, you introduce discomfort/danger from too much G. This is the emergency/combat case, that can only be sustained for limited times. It does need to be interrupted. D. For completeness' sake, let's bring in, as D, the even more dangerous levels, that require the juice I'd guess you were thinking of C, requiring interruptions, and misapplying that to B. B is the most common G level in the system. 1/3 G, which most spin stations are at, and is the constant-burn cruising G for long duration trips for Belter and mixed-crew ships. quote:Cruise yes, but they spend good portions of the trip on the float too. It is also true that they spend a lot of time on the float, but this is not any requirement of the Epstein/constant-burn travel paradigm. It's simply when they're not going anywhere, such as waiting for a rendezvous, or performing mining operations, or hiding out, etc. quote:It's going to be a very specific set of routes where you can constantly accelerate/decelerate within a certain amount of G, though. This is not true. You can take a given distance of trip, plan to acc/decelerate at any chosen G, and that would result in a certain time duration. (But you can reverse it and choose the time duration, which would then dictate the G.) (Since there are gravity sources around, of course the paths would have to account for them and curve around them, but they're far straighter curves than coasting trajectories. The higher the acc/deceleration, the straighter the path.) quote:If you're going at exactly .3 G acceleration and you slow down at the same rate with no breaks, there is exactly one length of trip that will cover. And things are usually different distances based on orbits. Yes, allowing for an unplanned early stop would dictate a lower-than-otherwise-chosen G, so it can be increased if you're partway down the trip and decide to do the early stop. Like the Canterbury which saw the emergency beacon, which was short of the destination, and decided to fly to it without having planned for this possibility. So we got the dramatic high-G burn on the juice to open the series with. But if we're not allowing for an unplanned stop/diversion, and just talking about a basic A to B cruise, there is nothing preventing constant .3G. vessbot fucked around with this message at 05:59 on Jan 23, 2021 |
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Jan 23, 2021 04:49
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Now, Thread, if you can help me with the reason I came over. I want to get a Pur'n'Kleen sticker, and there are basic ones like this with simply the logo. And there are ones like this, with a round backdrop with writing in the style of a squadron patch. Was this second style actually seen in the show or any official materials? Or is it a fan creation?
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Jan 23, 2021 05:00
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Is there any explanation in the show or books about why the belt relies so much on manual labor instead of just robots doing everything? I’m gonna guess  but it’s still weird that you never see too many robots given how advanced ship AIs are.
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Jan 23, 2021 05:01
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Ur Getting Fatter posted:Is there any explanation in the show or books about why the belt relies so much on manual labor instead of just robots doing everything? The authors wanted to write about people, not AI/robots. I know you want an in-universe answer but I don't think they ever really go into it
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Jan 23, 2021 05:02
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gfarrell80 posted:Agreed. Amos and Peaches totally would have banged pretty shortly after Peaches started feeling better. Going to spoiler because I'm not sure if it came up in the show previous to this (I'm almost positive it did), but : No way would they sleep together, because Amos actually likes her (as a person, not romantically). Amos has a 'complicated' relationship with sex.
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Jan 23, 2021 06:09
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Now, a lot of Belter ships end up on-the-float because they don't actually have Epstein drives, but all Earth/Mars/Corpo ships cruise constantly. 
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Jan 23, 2021 06:19
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Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:Now, a lot of Belter ships end up on-the-float because they don't actually have Epstein drives, but all Earth/Mars/Corpo ships cruise constantly. That's another good exception, belters flying simpler torch drive ships.
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Jan 23, 2021 06:21
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Kaedric posted:Going to spoiler because I'm not sure if it came up in the show previous to this (I'm almost positive it did), but : No way would they sleep together, because Amos actually likes her (as a person, not romantically). Amos has a 'complicated' relationship with sex. “I like her, you know? Like my kid sister, only smart and I'd do her if she let me. You know?” - Amos talking about Naomi when Holden asks what their deal is in S1. If he'd sleep with Naomi when she was his only / best friend; he would 100% sleep with peaches if she expressed interest.
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Jan 23, 2021 06:44
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Infidelicious posted:“I like her, you know? Like my kid sister, only smart and I'd do her if she let me. You know?” - Amos talking about Naomi when Holden asks what their deal is in S1. Yeah that bit of characterization was a bit of a miss, imo. Wish I could find the quote I'm talking about.
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Jan 23, 2021 07:21
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Infidelicious posted:S2 / 3 basically had a major thing happening every episode with everything building to a climax. The pacing is so bad. Amos entire subplot should have been shoved into a bottle episode (as it ties into literally no part of the rest of the plot) and the Mars subplot similarly is just build-up for a pay-off the story doesn't seem interested in exploring. The martians disappeared from the plot the moment our cast stopped looking at them. Naomi, Holden and Drummers drama could have been central this season since they're separate perspectives of the same conflict. But, they're competing for time with literally three other plots. Amos on Earth, Avasarala on the moon and whatever disappointing pay-off the razorback is leading towards. Seriously, how has the razorback still not re-united with any part of the cast yet. Whose idea was this. "The martians gave us the ships and stealth tech" could have been told in like 2 lines of dialogue. Whomever said season 4 was an example of why it's better not be focused did not understand the problems of season 4. I took us away from the central stakes of the three former seasons and was virtually a bottle season. Something especially reinforced by the time-skip and us being back at the same conflict we left in back in season 3.
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Jan 23, 2021 08:33
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Speaking of space travel, is the scene in the previous season where the Martians land on Earth for the first time and get dizzy and puke realistic? Like, obviously we've never been able to test that scenario in real life, but theoretically, is that how their bodies would react?
Carbon dioxide fucked around with this message at 08:53 on Jan 23, 2021 |
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Jan 23, 2021 08:33
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I think that's.... agoraphobia? The open spaces one from having a wider horizon and no dome overhead, etc.
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Jan 23, 2021 08:37
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Ur Getting Fatter posted:Is there any explanation in the show or books about why the belt relies so much on manual labor instead of just robots doing everything? I think an easy in-universe answer would be, it's one thing to have the hardware for an advanced AI that probably has few moving parts aside from cooling systems. But look at how much everything breaks mechanically in the Belt. You'd spend more time fixing robots than you would getting poo poo done. Purely because you don't have the money for good robots / robot parts, of course.
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Jan 23, 2021 09:49
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vessbot posted:
Yes, and I admitted my mistake 5 posts up from yours. You're spending an awful lot of this post on a gotcha I just copped to! I hosed up there. I still don't agree that orbital mechanics won't apply at all to an epstein drive unless it's literal magic, but I do concede the .3 G is doable as long as you can plot a course that it works for. And I really don't think it was constant acceleration in the books but it has been a year since I binged them all in a few weeks so I could be wrong there for sure. I will say, in the show, either they're on the float a lot or they really love fighting against their magboots for fun. And in the end, this is the show thread. They're on the float a lot. Because there's a lot of magboot clomping. Like, unless I am seriously making poo poo up, I distinctly remember a lot of instances of Alex saying "next burn is in X minutes people.' Maybe I'm just imagining all that, or imagining one instance is many. It's possible. As I said I read all the books in a few weeks so sorry on the book side if I'm completely wrong. quote:Speaking of space travel, is the scene in the previous season where the Martians land on Earth for the first time and get dizzy and puke realistic? Like, obviously we've never been able to test that scenario in real life, but theoretically, is that how their bodies would react? Probably best not to think about that scene. Part of it is spent talking about the effect gravity will have on them, but Bobbie is taking Gs the air force wouldn't require and saying, without strain in her voice, "I could do another four Gs standing on my head*" to Avasarala in an early season. And they make a big deal in the UNN scenes about talking about how Martians all serve and they all train at one G. That scene is there for drama for Bobbie, but if you think it through, it makes the concept of a Martian invasion laughable. And it doesn't make sense at all for what the best of the best in a military society would be prepared for. They train at high G, and they do surface exercises where they see an open sky. It's not a stretch to think that the training would include sun level light. You can't really combine all 3 but they wouldn't be reduced to uselessness like they are in that scene, except it's what the plot requires. *I first said 3 Gs but she said 4 Gs after looking it up. But she needs gravity pills? Again, just a thing the plot required at the time and not worth thinking about too much. Nail Rat fucked around with this message at 10:21 on Jan 23, 2021 |
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Jan 23, 2021 09:51
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Nail Rat posted:That scene is there for drama for Bobbie, but if you think it through, it makes the concept of a Martian invasion laughable. And it doesn't make sense at all for what the best of the best in a military society would be prepared for. They train at high G, and they do surface exercises where they see an open sky. It's not a stretch to think that the training would include sun level light. You can't really combine all 3 but they wouldn't be reduced to uselessness like they are in that scene, except it's what the plot requires. In the books Bobbie reflects on the fascist propaganda she has been fed about Martian superiority over Earth (“they’re weak and all on basic and they don’t do anything and they’re also the boot on our throat”) and her realisation of that point is an important part of her character arc. Bobbie - Caliban’s War posted:“But one thing was for sure: All that running and exercising the Martian Marines did at one full gravity was bullshit. There was no way Mars could ever beat Earth on the ground. You could drop every Martian soldier, fully armed, into just one Earth city and the citizens would overwhelm them using rocks and sticks” Avarasala pushes on that door repeatedly with her.
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Jan 23, 2021 10:34
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gonna colonize a planet with two G and create an unstoppable race of mighty space dwarfs
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Jan 23, 2021 10:46
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Kaedric posted:Yeah that bit of characterization was a bit of a miss, imo. Wish I could find the quote I'm talking about. I took that as a joke to rile up Holden more than anything, but in regards to what is going on right now in the show, it feels like they are playing the long game with a romance subplot regardless of Amos' relationship with sex in the books.
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Jan 23, 2021 11:17
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Nail Rat posted:I still don't agree that orbital mechanics won't apply at all to an epstein drive unless it's literal magic, but I do concede the .3 G is doable as long as you can plot a course that it works for. If you have a high thrust, high efficiency engine (which is what the fictional torch drive is) you can start using Brachistochrone trajectories instead. Here's a video explaining how trajectories like that work, using KSP: https://youtu.be/toMnjO8aJDI You may also want to hear about the nuclear salt water rocket, which is the closest maybe workable concept to a real life epstien drive: https://youtu.be/cvZjhWE-3zM
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Jan 23, 2021 11:32
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Carbon dioxide posted:Speaking of space travel, is the scene in the previous season where the Martians land on Earth for the first time and get dizzy and puke realistic? Like, obviously we've never been able to test that scenario in real life, but theoretically, is that how their bodies would react? GodFish posted:I think that's.... agoraphobia? I think agoraphobia is more a psychological fear of social interaction with large crowds than a physiological reaction to open spaces. Vertigo would be disorientation due to open spaces. Martians whose bodies are naturally adapted to .37 g for their entire life would almost certainly have some kind of reaction to walking around on Earth's surface (I don't care how much they 'train' in 1g). Theoretically yes, they would have some kind of reaction what it is exactly... egh, dunno. Wheeee posted:gonna colonize a planet with two G and create an unstoppable race of mighty space dwarfs yeaaah. Gotta find a 1.5 g to train up first. Don't want hearts exploding.
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Jan 23, 2021 15:10
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gfarrell80 posted:Martians whose bodies are naturally adapted to .37 g for their entire life would almost certainly have some kind of reaction to walking around on Earth's surface (I don't care how much they 'train' in 1g). Theoretically yes, they would have some kind of reaction what it is exactly... egh, dunno. In the books it's explicitly a reaction to being in open air with no suit, dome or covering. Just being outside in the atmosphere for the first time in their lives, when your training and experience dictates that being outside with no suit is essentially certain death. Nothing to do with the gravity. So yeah, basically vertigo or agoraphobia or something like that.
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Jan 23, 2021 15:51
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Gully Foyle posted:In the books it's explicitly a reaction to being in open air with no suit, dome or covering. Just being outside in the atmosphere for the first time in their lives, when your training and experience dictates that being outside with no suit is essentially certain death. Nothing to do with the gravity. Huh, I am only on the 2nd book but just read a passage that says otherwise. Roberta being outside and at a tea shop realizes that despite training at 1 g they would never win a land war on Earth, that its exhausting even with overcoming the agoraphobia. Its just too hard to do at constantly.
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Jan 23, 2021 16:03
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Gully Foyle posted:In the books it's explicitly a reaction to being in open air with no suit, dome or covering. Just being outside in the atmosphere for the first time in their lives, when your training and experience dictates that being outside with no suit is essentially certain death. Nothing to do with the gravity. i think kenophobia is more accurate
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Jan 23, 2021 16:24
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Agoraphobia is definitely a psychological fear of crowds or public interaction (that might have a physical manifestation): https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/agoraphobia/symptoms-causes/syc-20355987 I wouldn't use the term agoraphobia to describe what happens to Bobby, Martians, or Belters when trying to deal with gravity or open spaces. Goes back to the Greek agora: fear of the marketplace, where there are people and hustle and bustle. <edit> Yep, Kenophobia, or vertigo look more the ticket. gfarrell80 fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Jan 23, 2021 |
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Jan 23, 2021 16:26
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gfarrell80 posted:Agoraphobia is definitely a psychological fear of crowds or public interaction (that might have a physical manifestation): Agoraphobia is a catch all term used in medicine to basically describe a fear of leaving your home. In the article you linked it evens gives seemingly contradictory examples of fear of enclosed places as well as fear of open spaces. Again, its a large umbrella term to describe a variety of symptoms and fears but conveys the general idea. As with a whole host of other medical conditions and their names, the details are important and direct the management of the condition. In the books, the term agoraphobia is specifically used.
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Jan 23, 2021 16:32
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MiddleOne posted:The pacing is so bad. Amos entire subplot should have been shoved into a bottle episode (as it ties into literally no part of the rest of the plot) and the Mars subplot similarly is just build-up for a pay-off the story doesn't seem interested in exploring. The martians disappeared from the plot the moment our cast stopped looking at them. Naomi, Holden and Drummers drama could have been central this season since they're separate perspectives of the same conflict. But, they're competing for time with literally three other plots. Amos on Earth, Avasarala on the moon and whatever disappointing pay-off the razorback is leading towards. Book Structure (non-plot) Spoilers This is the first book in the series where Non-Holden Roci Crew Memebers have POV chapters. Before this they were all basically defined by their relationship to Holden. Them being split up is our first time getting inside their heads, literally. It made sense and was a change of pace to see a lot of them on their own having their own adventures. On the show, we've gotten to spend a lot more time with the Non-Holden folks so some of the purpose is kinda rendered moot That's my opinion at least.
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Jan 23, 2021 16:35
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