Stephen King: Beep Beep, Jealous Cow

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Phanatic: Mar 13, 2007; Please don't forget that I am an extremely racist idiot who also has terrible opinions about the Culture series.

Ugly In The Morning posted:

I wonder how much of that is misreading the text and how much of it is from being made in the mid 90�s when Angel poo poo was super popular.

Misreading the text?

quote:

And suddenly Ralph shrieked: "Larry! Larry! The Hand of God!" Ralph's face was transported in a terrible joy. His eyes shone. He was pointing into the sky.

Larry looked up. He saw the ball of electricity Flagg had flicked from the end of his finger. It had grown to a tremendous size. It hung in the sky, jittering towards Trashcan Man, giving off sparks like hair. Larry realized dimly that the air was now so full of electricity that every hair on his own body was standing on end.

And the thing in the sky did look like a hand.

It's just a dumb ending, misreading the text has nothing to do with it. The book has an awful climax, is provincially American, and has a very shallow and lazy theology. The good parts are the characters, and the miniseries is constructed in such a way that you cannot give a poo poo about the characters.

# ? Feb 6, 2021 02:51

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# ? Apr 27, 2024 12:38

Eason the Fifth: Apr 9, 2020

I'd always pictured it like a clawed hand-shape but not specifically the 90s version glowing hand of god rubbing one out on a nuclear dong. But even that was better than what this new series did.

# ? Feb 6, 2021 05:47

DrVenkman: Dec 28, 2005; I think he can hear you, Ray.

I always read it as Larry's interpretation of what he's seeing, rather than King's.

# ? Feb 6, 2021 13:26

joepinetree: Apr 5, 2012

Yeah, in the book it is clearly a"ball of electricity" where the sparkles branch out in such a way that, to Larry and Ralph, who are in the middle of their public execution, it looks like a hand. It clearly is not described anywhere near what is shown in either the 1994 or current adaptations. The only way the text itself describes the "hand" is as a giant ball of electricity. Like, the stand isn't my favorite and the ending is pretty bad, but I am pretty sure that the intent of the ball of electricity that came from Flagg's hand being described as the hand of god was not to imply that it really was a hand, especially not the hand of god. You can sort of see what King was trying to go for there (after all, it literally came from Flagg's hand), and it wasn't "god intervened and saved them all."

joepinetree fucked around with this message at 17:01 on Feb 6, 2021

# ? Feb 6, 2021 16:57

Breadallelogram: Oct 9, 2012

I don't think it's really that outlandish to interpret the ending as literal divine intervention. The Boulder group has been following the instructions of an old woman who appeared in their dreams and speaks for god.

# ? Feb 6, 2021 18:01

Ugly In The Morning: Jul 1, 2010; Pillbug

Breadallelogram posted:

I don't think it's really that outlandish to interpret the ending as literal divine intervention. The Boulder group has been following the instructions of an old woman who appeared in their dreams and speaks for god.

I don�t think anyone disagrees there was a bit of divine intervention, but more in the sense of setting up the situation where things would go that way instead of straight up giving a nuke a handy.

# ? Feb 6, 2021 18:17

BiggerBoat: Sep 26, 2007; Don't you tell me my business again.

Breadallelogram posted:

I don't think it's really that outlandish to interpret the ending as literal divine intervention. The Boulder group has been following the instructions of an old woman who appeared in their dreams and speaks for god.

Seriously.

Outlandish? No. To the contrary, I always read it as a that being the definitive interpretation and can't really see it any other way. Been a while since I read it but IIRC the book wasn't shy about setting it up as Good v Evil and God v The Devil in an apocalyptic setting that calls on The Book of Revelations, culminating in a rather literal Hand of God.

How else was I supposed to read it?

I'm not trying to be a smart rear end here and I agree with you. Just a little surprised that some people would think that the story having rather strong and blatant religious overtones is some sort of outlandish interpretation.

# ? Feb 6, 2021 20:01

joepinetree: Apr 5, 2012

I mean, it depends on what we are talking about.

There is obviously some divine intervention in that when the 4 are sent to Vegas and Mother Abigail foresees that "one will fall along the way." That obviously indicates some sort of supernatural power, though if it is god or her being psychic is unclear.

But there is no possible interpretation where what comes down is the literal hand of god. Not only is it not described as the hand of god (two characters about to be executed say it looks like the hand of god), not only is its source clearly described, but it goes against the theme of the ending. Flagg kills Nadine. Flagg flings the electricity ball that ends up killing Vegas. The point is that the god that demands obedience and worship above all else is self destructive. Not only is it not what is described, but it goes against the obvious point of the scene to have the ball of electricity that Flagg himself created to silence his critic actually become the hand of god.

I don't think anyone ignores the religious themes of the book. King himself called it his tale of "Dark Christianity." But there is a pretty big gulf between talking about the religious overtones of the book, and thinking the book ends with the literal hand of god (because god apparently can physically manifest itself, but needs trashcan's help to defeat Flagg).

# ? Feb 6, 2021 21:06

Eason the Fifth: Apr 9, 2020

joepinetree posted:

I mean, it depends on what we are talking about.

There is obviously some divine intervention in that when the 4 are sent to Vegas and Mother Abigail foresees that "one will fall along the way." That obviously indicates some sort of supernatural power, though if it is god or her being psychic is unclear.

But there is no possible interpretation where what comes down is the literal hand of god. Not only is it not described as the hand of god (two characters about to be executed say it looks like the hand of god), not only is its source clearly described, but it goes against the theme of the ending. Flagg kills Nadine. Flagg flings the electricity ball that ends up killing Vegas. The point is that the god that demands obedience and worship above all else is self destructive. Not only is it not what is described, but it goes against the obvious point of the scene to have the ball of electricity that Flagg himself created to silence his critic actually become the hand of god.

I don't think anyone ignores the religious themes of the book. King himself called it his tale of "Dark Christianity." But there is a pretty big gulf between talking about the religious overtones of the book, and thinking the book ends with the literal hand of god (because god apparently can physically manifest itself, but needs trashcan's help to defeat Flagg).

Tom and Nick's ghost both describe it as the hand of god, though:

Tom, talking to Stu: "It was the bad man killed Nick. Tom knows. But God fixed that bad man. I saw it. The hand of God came down out of the sky."

And then Nick talking to Tom: "You have to get back to Boulder and tell him that you saw the hand of God in the desert."

I'm sort of arguing against myself here (I'm on the not-literal train), but Tom's knowledge of Flagg and the business around him exceeds everyone else's, except Mother Abagail's. I can see readers taking the hand of god literally on account of that.

Unrelated, and potentially hilarious, I remember reading somewhere (but I couldn't tell you the source for the life of me) that King said that if he was going to continue the story, he had an image of Frannie falling down a well. I hope that makes it into the miniseries. :zaurg:

# ? Feb 6, 2021 21:38

Ugly In The Morning: Jul 1, 2010; Pillbug

The whole point is that things are set up so that good takes a stand against evil, and that evil destroys itself (which is something that King loves to go back to). The literal hand of god ending idea sabotages the story pretty drat hard.

# ? Feb 6, 2021 21:48

Medullah: Aug 14, 2003; FEAR MY SHARK ROCKET IT REALLY SUCKS AND BLOWS

Eason the Fifth posted:

Unrelated, and potentially hilarious, I remember reading somewhere (but I couldn't tell you the source for the life of me) that King said that if he was going to continue the story, he had an image of Frannie falling down a well. I hope that makes it into the miniseries.

I want the writers of the Mist movie to update all of Kings endings.

# ? Feb 6, 2021 21:59

Phanatic: Mar 13, 2007; Please don't forget that I am an extremely racist idiot who also has terrible opinions about the Culture series.

Ugly In The Morning posted:

I don�t think anyone disagrees there was a bit of divine intervention, but more in the sense of setting up the situation where things would go that way instead of straight up giving a nuke a handy.

Which is what makes King's God in the Stand really very pathetic and weak.

The God of the Old Testament could just loving rain down fire. He didn't need to be some mere chess player, arranging his pieces in just the precise order to allow some amazing coincidence to occur, bringing about the end of his enemies through their own incompetence. He could just, you know, flood the entire planet and spare only his elect, or turn people into salt, whatever. The whole bit where it is *necessary* for the Boulderites to send spies into Vegas specifically so that chain of coincidences that lead to Vegas getting nuked can take place is silly as hell.

joepinetree posted:

There is obviously some divine intervention in that when the 4 are sent to Vegas and Mother Abigail foresees that "one will fall along the way." That obviously indicates some sort of supernatural power, though if it is god or her being psychic is unclear.

Nah. Regarding Mother Abigail:

quote:

"But she was also very clear about wanting to be consulted on all matters that have to do with the dark man. She believes we are all a part of a chess game between God and Satan; that Satan's chief agent in this game is the Adversary, whose name she says is Randall Flagg...that for reasons best known to Himself, God has chosen her as His agent in this matter.

Now, you could argue that mother Abagail is just fuckin' nuts, the kind of senile old bat who goes out into the woods in her birthday suit and ends up eating twigs, and just got lucky a lot. You could also argue that mother Abigail is just deceived and that it is some other supernatural entity, a demiurge or what have you, that is responsible for events.

But psychic power? There is nothing, nothing whatsoever in the text of the book, that suggests the dreams, Flagg's powers, the "hand of God" at the end, the visions *and their accuracy*, are psychic power in nature. This isn't Firestarter, this isn't the Dead Zone, this is the real world until the plague comes about and then supernatural events start to occur. And there's Tom's whole hypnosis bit.

quote:

"Tom," Ralph said suddenly, "Do you know if Mother Abagail...if she's still alive?"

"She's alive, but she's not right with God yet."

"Not right with God? Why not, Tommy?"

"She's in the wilderness, God has lifted her up in the wilderness, she does not fear the terror that flies at noon or the terror that creeps at midnight...neither will the snake bite her nor the bee sting her...but she's not right with God yet. It was not the hand of Moses that brought water from the rock. It was not the hand of Abagail that turned the weasels back with their bellies empty. She's to be pitied. She will see, but she will see too late. There will be death. His death. She will die on the wrong side of the river. She-"

..

"Tom," Stu said.

"Yes."

"Are you the same Tom that Nick met in Oklahoma? Are you the same Tom we know when you're awake?"

"Yes, but I am more than that Tom."

"I don't understand."
...
"I am God's Tom."

What's going on here is literal divine intervention, it's not psychic power.

# ? Feb 6, 2021 22:08

Eason the Fifth: Apr 9, 2020

Ugly In The Morning posted:

The whole point is that things are set up so that good takes a stand against evil, and that evil destroys itself (which is something that King loves to go back to). The literal hand of god ending idea sabotages the story pretty drat hard.

I agree with you on that theme there, but there's also statements in the story ('Man proposes, God disposes'; 'It was not the hand of Moses that brought water from the rock') that speak toward the miracle-making old testament god that split the Red Sea and brought manna down from heaven. The hand of god as a physical miracle that uses Flagg's own magic against him isn't out of the question.

edit - One of the strengths of the novel is that the characters run the range from agnostic to faithful, leaving the reader to interpret the particulars. I definitely fall on the agnostic, Glen Bateman side of things, but I have no problem understanding people having a faith-driven, Mother Abagail literal interpretation.

Eason the Fifth fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Feb 6, 2021

# ? Feb 6, 2021 22:08

Ugly In The Morning: Jul 1, 2010; Pillbug

Medullah posted:

I want the writers of the Mist movie to update all of Kings endings.

I think the short story and movie both had great endings but yeah, the mist movie guys also showed they now how to put a full stop on a kind story. And Darabont also directed Shawshank, soooo...

# ? Feb 6, 2021 22:09

Medullah: Aug 14, 2003; FEAR MY SHARK ROCKET IT REALLY SUCKS AND BLOWS

Ugly In The Morning posted:

I think the short story and movie both had great endings but yeah, the mist movie guys also showed they now how to put a full stop on a kind story. And Darabont also directed Shawshank, soooo...

Oh yeah the ending to the short story was great, but the movie just said "Nah, still too much hope". As a huge fan of the story i couldn't stop laughing at the end for an hour straight. So dark.

# ? Feb 6, 2021 22:12

Ugly In The Morning: Jul 1, 2010; Pillbug

Phanatic posted:

Which is what makes King's God in the Stand really very pathetic and weak.

The God of the Old Testament could just loving rain down fire. He didn't need to be some mere chess player, arranging his pieces in just the precise order to allow some amazing coincidence to occur, bringing about the end of his enemies through their own incompetence. He could just, you know, flood the entire planet and spare only his elect, or turn people into salt, whatever. The whole bit where it is *necessary* for the Boulderites to send spies into Vegas specifically so that chain of coincidences that lead to Vegas getting nuked can take place is silly as hell.

God in the stand is more Old Testament Satan than a regular interpration of God. It�s �dark Christianity� in kings words. He�s not sending angry displeasure down. To explode poo poo. He�s the prosecuting attorney. He set humanity up with a test and in the ending they passed.

E: gonna be blunt btw, just winging this but it�s fun explaining how I interpret the ending in this kind of argumentative context.

# ? Feb 6, 2021 22:14

Breadallelogram: Oct 9, 2012

Eason the Fifth posted:

Unrelated, and potentially hilarious, I remember reading somewhere (but I couldn't tell you the source for the life of me) that King said that if he was going to continue the story, he had an image of Frannie falling down a well. I hope that makes it into the miniseries.

Look up the title of the final episode!

joepinetree posted:

it goes against the obvious point of the scene to have the ball of electricity that Flagg himself created to silence his critic actually become the hand of god.

I agree it's not a very satisfying ending.

# ? Feb 6, 2021 23:09

Mat Cauthon: Jan 2, 2006; The more tragic things get,
the more I feel like laughing.

Eason the Fifth posted:

Unrelated, and potentially hilarious, I remember reading somewhere (but I couldn't tell you the source for the life of me) that King said that if he was going to continue the story, he had an image of Frannie falling down a well. I hope that makes it into the miniseries.

Well now the title of the final episode of the miniseries makes a lot more sense.

# ? Feb 6, 2021 23:12

joepinetree: Apr 5, 2012

Eason the Fifth posted:

Tom and Nick's ghost both describe it as the hand of god, though:

Tom, talking to Stu: "It was the bad man killed Nick. Tom knows. But God fixed that bad man. I saw it. The hand of God came down out of the sky."

And then Nick talking to Tom: "You have to get back to Boulder and tell him that you saw the hand of God in the desert."

I'm sort of arguing against myself here (I'm on the not-literal train), but Tom's knowledge of Flagg and the business around him exceeds everyone else's, except Mother Abagail's. I can see readers taking the hand of god literally on account of that.

Unrelated, and potentially hilarious, I remember reading somewhere (but I couldn't tell you the source for the life of me) that King said that if he was going to continue the story, he had an image of Frannie falling down a well. I hope that makes it into the miniseries.

Again, those are characters describing it. In a book that is about the faith of the characters and the need for faith. It makes sense that the characters would see it that way. But it is clearly now how the text describes it.

# ? Feb 6, 2021 23:52

Eason the Fifth: Apr 9, 2020

joepinetree posted:

Again, those are characters describing it. In a book that is about the faith of the characters and the need for faith. It makes sense that the characters would see it that way. But it is clearly now how the text describes it.

Breadallelogram posted:

Look up the title of the final episode!

lmao holy poo poo

Eason the Fifth fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Feb 7, 2021

# ? Feb 6, 2021 23:55

Rev. Bleech_: Oct 19, 2004; ~OKAY, WE'LL DRINK TO OUR LEGS!~

what sort of 1,000MT nuke would you have to groundburst in Las Vegas to make the sky turn red in Boulder anyway

# ? Feb 7, 2021 04:34

Leave: Feb 7, 2012; Taking the term "Koopaling" to a whole new level since 2016.

The kind with divine intervention.

# ? Feb 7, 2021 05:03

Devo: Jul 9, 2001; Caught Cubs Posting

I always thought that the nuke scene from 1994 was kind of hokey, but I vastly prefer it to whatever the gently caress it is I just watched

# ? Feb 7, 2021 06:26

Leave: Feb 7, 2012; Taking the term "Koopaling" to a whole new level since 2016.

Personally, I've always pictured the Hand of God alluded to in the text as the flaming middle finger from Johnny Mnemonic.

# ? Feb 7, 2021 06:36

Darko: Dec 23, 2004

Wait, the new Creepshow show did Survivor Type but (badly) animated it like a motion comic? What in the world?

That is possibly the easiest King story to actually film and not mess up too.

# ? Feb 10, 2021 11:22

DrVenkman: Dec 28, 2005; I think he can hear you, Ray.

Darko posted:

Wait, the new Creepshow show did Survivor Type but (badly) animated it like a motion comic? What in the world?

That is possibly the easiest King story to actually film and not mess up too.

Yeah but I think it was made by Shudder as a lockdown treat. It has great voice work from Keifer Sutherland though.

# ? Feb 10, 2021 12:10

ruddiger: Jun 3, 2004

The animation is really really bad

# ? Feb 10, 2021 19:29

Rev. Bleech_: Oct 19, 2004; ~OKAY, WE'LL DRINK TO OUR LEGS!~

still better than The Stand I'm certain

# ? Feb 11, 2021 06:33

Medullah: Aug 14, 2003; FEAR MY SHARK ROCKET IT REALLY SUCKS AND BLOWS

Well that was definitely a 9th episode of a show which ended on the 8th episode.

# ? Feb 11, 2021 17:49

E.G.G.S.: Apr 15, 2006

M-O-O-N that spells woof

# ? Feb 11, 2021 18:05

The Berzerker: Feb 24, 2006; treat me like a dog

pure dog poo poo finale for an absolutely terrible series

# ? Feb 11, 2021 18:07

The Fuzzy Hulk: Nov 22, 2007; ASK ME ABOUT CROSSING THE STREAMS

So, that was garbage.

Maybe The Institute will be good.

# ? Feb 11, 2021 18:15

Phanatic: Mar 13, 2007; Please don't forget that I am an extremely racist idiot who also has terrible opinions about the Culture series.

The Fuzzy Hulk posted:

So, that was garbage.

Maybe The Institute will be good.

Well, they turned a decent book into a lovely miniseries so maybe they can turn a lovely book into a decent miniseries.

# ? Feb 11, 2021 18:19

BiggerBoat: Sep 26, 2007; Don't you tell me my business again.

E.G.G.S. posted:

M-O-O-N that spells ~~woof~~ poo poo

Glad I passed on this.

# ? Feb 11, 2021 18:20

gh0stpinballa: Mar 5, 2019

always thought the stand should have just been book 1. would have been a terrific bit of pop nihilism if he just ended it after the first 200 or 300 pages. shell shocked survivors of an apocalyptic plague tormented by magical dreams.

# ? Feb 11, 2021 18:23

Phanatic: Mar 13, 2007; Please don't forget that I am an extremely racist idiot who also has terrible opinions about the Culture series.

Or even just unconnected short stories. Because Night Surf was loving chilling.

# ? Feb 11, 2021 18:26

gh0stpinballa: Mar 5, 2019

Phanatic posted:

Or even just unconnected short stories. Because Night Surf was loving chilling.

i might cut book 1 out and clip night surf to the end as an incredibly grim final chapter.

# ? Feb 11, 2021 18:27

Breadallelogram: Oct 9, 2012

2 overnight stops in Nebraska but they made it to Maine in a week. Alright.

# ? Feb 11, 2021 19:10

DrVenkman: Dec 28, 2005; I think he can hear you, Ray.

I do appreciate that they tried to include things like tension after having 8 episodes of none of that at all.

# ? Feb 11, 2021 19:44

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# ? Apr 27, 2024 12:38

Eason the Fifth: Apr 9, 2020

lmao a literal magical negro. King dude you're my favorite author and you're on the right side of the fight but holy lol

best ep of the series, frannie in the well was everything i dreamed

Eason the Fifth fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Feb 11, 2021

# ? Feb 11, 2021 23:09

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