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X-Men were the most popular and known Marvel characters by an order of magnitude, so much so that all their titles kind of existed in their own corner and hardly ever connected to the larger Marvel universe. The 90s was full of attempts to share that popularity by having events with the Avengers or whoever, but it didn't work. Spiderman and maybe Captain America also had recognition with the larger public. It's weird how things have completely reversed and now the c-string Marvel characters like Iron Man and the Hulk are understood to be the center of the narrative purely because they were less desirable when Marvel was selling off the rights, and the X-Men and Fantastic Four have zero visibility because they were sold off early and produced a lot of mediocre-to-bad movies.
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Feb 13, 2021 03:25
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Well the X-men are their own unique thing. They n the late 80s till about the mid 90s nothing could compete with them. Hell their cartoon is the only thing that prevented DC from completely dominating that market and their cartoon was objectively terrible.
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Feb 13, 2021 03:34
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CharlestheHammer posted:Well the X-men are their own unique thing. They n the late 80s till about the mid 90s nothing could compete with them. Hell their cartoon is the only thing that prevented DC from completely dominating that market and their cartoon was objectively terrible. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP4NF62DA3o
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Feb 13, 2021 03:39
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And of course this classic is eternal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-K1D8y_Pxs
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Feb 13, 2021 03:40
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Every time I've tried to watch Grease, the universe has conspired against me to stop me from finishing the movie. I've tried a dozen times throughout my life and every time something happens and I can't finish the movie. Blackouts. People needing me to run errands. Family wanting to go out and eat. Falling asleep towards the end of the flim. I have been cursed with never being able to see the ending to the movie. The furthest I've ever gotten is the end of the dance. This all came to a head a couple years ago when my wife didn't believe me about the Curse of Grease. She thought it was stupid and I was making it up so she went to the library and checked out their copy and forced me to sit down and watch it while she went to our computer room to do some work. About 2/3s of the way through the PS4 spit out the disc. Looking at it, it was covered in scratches and completely unwatchable from that point onward. I began to laugh my rear end off and took the dvd to show her. I don't think I've ever seen anyone as pissed as she was that day, at having to admit that my Curse of Grease is a real thing. 
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Feb 13, 2021 03:43
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Grease is still better than Grease 2.
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Feb 13, 2021 04:07
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Are people legitimately arguing that people wouldn't know who the Hulk was prior to the latest MCU?
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Feb 13, 2021 04:32
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The wholk?
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Feb 13, 2021 04:36
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Captain Monkey posted:Are people legitimately arguing that people wouldn't know who the Hulk was prior to the latest MCU? My mom thought the hulk was part of the super friends. Before marvel movies were a thing she assumed every superhero thing was a spinoff of super friends, and I kind of wish that was real because I want to see the Super Friends Cinematic Universe with maximum camp in every movie.
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Feb 13, 2021 04:49
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There was a 60s Hulk cartoon by some guys at Hanna-Barbera that looks very similar to Super Friends in that characteristically chintzy way.
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Feb 13, 2021 04:56
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Captain Monkey posted:Are people legitimately arguing that people wouldn't know who the Hulk was prior to the latest MCU? The Hulk had fallen out of a lot of public consciousness since the 70's show.
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Feb 13, 2021 05:04
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The Hulk is still pretty popular and memorable mostly just because his concept is so solid. 'Hulking out' becoming its own thing and all.CharlestheHammer posted:I mean the original justice league was built on here are the characters you like together. Outside the big boys A general audience isn’t going to have that connection. Most young people know the Justice League from the cartoon of the same name, in which only Superman and Batman were previously established, with Wonder Woman specifically newly taking up the mantle and Green Lantern not even being the same one introduced earlier in STAS. Or from Super Friends, which didn't have ANY characters previously established besides maybe the main three. I do remember there was a bit of a theme that between covid and disney+ you had a lot of people starting MCU rewatches and quickly starting to get bored with how formulaic the movies were once you're out of the hype cycle. Also, is funny that a lot of the people so loudly mad about snyder and accusing him of being a Randian fascist are very, very quiet on whedon.
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Feb 13, 2021 05:24
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Precambrian posted:Though I can't help but laugh that somebody posted about how MoS hit them when they were in a very depressed state and a Snyder fan's response to that was to demand that he account for besmirching the reputation of Superman films. "I was depressed and I watched a movie and it made me feel more depressed" going straight to "PROVE IT! CITE YOUR SOURCES!" Not the OP, but I was also extremely depressed around the time MOS was released, and was excited to see it. Left the theater even more depressed that not even a Superman film could cheer me up. I sat in my car, after the late-night screening let out, looked to my right and saw the people in the car to my right having sex. "At least someone is having a good night." I've come around to the film though, and love the ultimate cut of Batman V Superman. Also no longer depressed. somepartsareme posted:i didn't know there were zack snyder fanboys There are dozens of us.
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Feb 13, 2021 05:36
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Captain Monkey posted:Are people legitimately arguing that people wouldn't know who the Hulk was prior to the latest MCU? Listen brother, there is only one hulk around here and he's a cancelled hogan
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Feb 13, 2021 05:41
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I feel like X-Men, Spider-Man, Hulk, and Cap were your noteworthy Marvel franchises back then. And Hulk and Cap were most likely strength of concept rather than any particular storyline.
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Feb 13, 2021 07:52
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Toshimo posted:The Hulk had fallen out of a lot of public consciousness since the 70's show. 
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Feb 13, 2021 08:09
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I'm probably going to butcher the point I'm trying to make, but, I think what gave Marvel a leg up on DC as far as the movies go is that Marvel characters...there's more depth to who they are behind the mask, so it gives you more to work with. Like, when Iron Man is on the screen, it's action time. Shooting lasers, flying through the air, that fun stuff. But Marvel made sure to get plenty of story out of Tony Stark as well. Iron Man might be the title of the film/comic, but the story is about Tony Stark, there's a human element to it that makes it easier to get invested in. Compare that to Batman. Same thing, once the bat costume goes on, you know what you're going to get. But when Bruce Wayne is on camera, he's mostly just waiting for it to be time to be Batman again. Being Bruce Wayne is just a chore we all have to get through to progress the plot enough that Batman can show up to beat bad guys up with batarangs and drive around in the Batmobile again. I think another thing is just that Marvel has a more consistent cast. Again, using Batman as an example, I think we've had more Batmen than James Bonds at this point. Or drat near it. How many Thors have we had though? How many Black Widows or Iron Mans? On some level, I think that plays a part as well because you know you're not getting a consistent universe with DC.
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Feb 13, 2021 08:50
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the_steve posted:How many Thors have we had though? Does Vincent D'Onofrio count?
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Feb 13, 2021 09:12
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the_steve posted:I think another thing is just that Marvel has a more consistent cast. Again, using Batman as an example, I think we've had more Batmen than James Bonds at this point. Or drat near it. How many Thors have we had though? How many Black Widows or Iron Mans? If we're just counting 'serious' movies, and excluding weirdo Bonds that even people who like Bond don't really count like Woody Allen... Bond has Connery, Dalton, Lazenby (who seems to be accepted in Bond Canon), Moore, Brosnan, and Craig. So, six in the core canon. Batman has Keaton, Kilmer, Clooney, Bale, Affleck, and soon Pattinson. So five, soon to be six. They're at a draw right now, but Batman is much more willing to weave in people who played the character in other things, like Adam West and Kevin Conroy. So Batman can look bigger. Incidentally, I do think that expanded non-movie DC stuff might actually be why The Flash's action scenes turned out so well in Justice League. DC has generally 'solved' how to do good action between someone with super speed and someone without, thanks to both the Justice League cartoons and the Flash TV show. Mix in some of Quicksilver's scenes from Age of Ultron and X-Men, you've got a really good base for how to do 'super speed action' in an appealing way. Cleretic has a new favorite as of 11:48 on Feb 13, 2021 |
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Feb 13, 2021 11:06
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Grunch Worldflower posted:Hell, at any point before the MCU I'd have trouble naming a single Marvel hero other than Spider-Man*. Thanks to all the animated stuff, DC basically had a monopoly on my entire knowledge of superheroes and still managed to gently caress up the DCU. Yeah, I'd say before the superhero boom, if you asked anyone to name 3 superheroes it would have been Batman, Superman, and Spiderman 90% of the time.
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Feb 13, 2021 11:20
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:I never understood this particular complaint. You can absolutely make a team up movie without having a solo movie for each protagonist. It's not like they are all deep and complex characters anyways. You absolutely can, and you get Justice League. You probably just shouldnt, because what you dont want to end up with is justice league. Are the characters deep and complex? Well, no, they are AAA action movie protagonists. But they are deeper and more complex if you've spent a movie (or two) showing the audience their character, their world, their supporting cast and the way they interact with it than if you just give them 5 minute introductions minutes before you expect the audience to be excited to see them team up together. Thor having a whole movie showing hes fundamentally decent, but really needs to work on his ego sets up the inevitable first meeting fight before they team up with Iron Man in Avengers. To put it another way; What would it have done to the pacing of The Avengers if there hadnt been a Thor movie first, and the Avengers had to explain Thor and Loki to the audience? So show Asgard, ancient aliens that look like, but arent, literal norse gods, explain their powers and relationship, and still have to tell the story The Avengers movie was trying to tell. DC did that with Cyborg AND Flash AND Aquaman. And from a marketing point of view, doing the individual movies first builds hype and audience expectations for the team up. You liked these movies, now this movie is a sequel to ALL OF THEM! If you liked EVEN ONE of those then you NEED to see this! Come see it and buy a refillable giant drink cup with your favourite member on it!" Its a gimme. It also lets you quietly tune the writing of your team up to give more or less screen time to the characters whose solo movie did better or worse. The DC method gives you "Come See Superman, Batman and Wonderwoman in a movie with 3 other characters you dont know" (unless you've been watching the TV show of The Flash, but dont worry, this isn't that flash that you may already like. And I guess you may have heard of Aquaman because "talks to fish" is an easy punchline. And cyborg was in the hugely popular Teen Titans cartoon, but again, almost no relation to the character you're about to see). But didnt BvS already have the three characters you may have heard of before in it? So whats JL doing to add appeal, to add a "must see" feeling? Superman coming back? Well sure, if they'd actually had a movie or two with him dead for the duration that might have had an impact, but the only movie released between him dying and coming back was Wonder Woman and it was set in WWI. Now, I'm not holding The Avengers up as the ultimate in storytelling or anything. At the time I thought it was "Not as good as the better of the solo movies, but about as good as a comicbook team-up movie could possibly be, considering", but that was 2012 and the marvel train just kept on rolling, and in the 9 years since they honed this poo poo to a razors edge. They've made much better team-up movies since. Its just that The Avengers was the first one they did, and it made crazy money, so thats the one that made every company out there with more than one possible franchise character say "We should have a shared universe too...".
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Feb 13, 2021 11:26
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SiKboy posted:You absolutely can, and you get Justice League. You probably just shouldnt, because what you dont want to end up with is justice league. Doctor Spaceman has a new favorite as of 11:59 on Feb 13, 2021 |
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Feb 13, 2021 11:31
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Vandar posted:Every time I've tried to watch Grease, the universe has conspired against me to stop me from finishing the movie. I've tried a dozen times throughout my life and every time something happens and I can't finish the movie. Blackouts. People needing me to run errands. Family wanting to go out and eat. Falling asleep towards the end of the flim. I have been cursed with never being able to see the ending to the movie. The furthest I've ever gotten is the end of the dance. This is entertaining. Tell me more, tell me more!
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Feb 13, 2021 11:55
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Ghost Leviathan posted:The Hulk is still pretty popular and memorable mostly just because his concept is so solid. 'Hulking out' becoming its own thing and all. I mean if you assume they are quite about Whedon instead of it being self evident. Whedon doesn’t really have the cult like following Snyder has to defend him anymore. Hasn’t really had it in years
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Feb 13, 2021 12:18
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Even when Avengers was new most people I knew were like  about Whedon himself. It’s not like when Buffy and Firefly were huge in nerd circles.
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Feb 13, 2021 12:24
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Doctor Spaceman posted:Or Guardians of the Galaxy, Lord of the Rings, and X-Men. Team-up movies are not the same as any movie featuring a team, but sure, lets do this. List of special relevant backgrounds that the guardians of the galaxy which may require explanation to the audience as they work off different rules from everyone else: Guns, guns, is a good fighter, is very strong, is a treeman. List of characters in guardians of the galaxy who were being planned to have a solo movie based purely on their appearence in guardians: . Therefore they just picked Peter as our viewpoint character and the rest of the guardians are essentially there as supporting cast. It wasnt sold as a team-up movie, but rather "the next piece of the marvel universe IN SPAAAAAAAAACE". Lord of the Rings is an reasonably faithful adaptation of an incredibly well known and widely read specific story, and is generic fantasy (because everyone ripped off tolkien, or ripped off people who ripped off tolkien for better than half a century). Relevant special powers/backgrounds requiring introduction: Uh... Gandalf is a wizard and the magic ring makes you go invisible? Because this was a single book series afaik no spin offs were ever really considered (and this was before The Dawning Of loving Everything Having An Expanded Universe) its really comparing apples and oranges. List of special relevant backgrounds that the X-men have which may require explanation to the audience as they work off different rules from everyone else: Is a mutant. This is actually why Marvel came up with the Mutant idea originally, to simplify the "why does this person have superpowers and how do they work?" stage of character introduction. List of actual characters in X-men (the movie): Wolverine, Professor X. They just picked Wolverine as our viewpoint character and the entire movie is him with the rest of the X-men as essentially supporting cast as he is introduced to their world. And also, lets be honest; While the X-men was surprisingly good at the time, its time was 21 years ago, and at the time no-one knew how to make a superhero movie which wasnt batman or superman work. Theres a reason that Fox didnt go on to make cyclops solo movies. (Also its worth mentioning that James Gunn and Peter Jackson are in fact extremely good directors. When I was a kid I loved Guardians of the Galaxy as a comic, when I heard marvel were doing a movie I was convinced that "nope, this is it, this is the one that flops and heralds the end of superhero movies being a massive thing", and I was very much wrong.) Who is our viewpoint character in Justice League or The Avengers? Whose story is it? They are team-up movies, not just "A movie featuring a team". Freddy vs Jason is difficult to make, a slasher movie with two slasher monsters is comparitively easy.
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Feb 13, 2021 12:25
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Before the modern movies, superheroes normies had heard of were the ones with campy live action TV shows and it's amazing to me it took so long for a Wonder Woman movie to be made. Some executive decided loving Green Lantern was a more bankable character.
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Feb 13, 2021 12:54
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bitterandtwisted posted:Before the modern movies, superheroes normies had heard of were the ones with campy live action TV shows and it's amazing to me it took so long for a Wonder Woman movie to be made. Some executive decided loving Green Lantern was a more bankable character. I only remember the Green Lantern movie exists when I see Deadpool, i don't think there's any other movie I've seen that managed to be so forgettable that i cant think of the plot at all outside of him fighting a cloud thing? Which oddly enough was also a plot point in a fantastic 4 movie.
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Feb 13, 2021 13:04
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bitterandtwisted posted:Before the modern movies, superheroes normies had heard of were the ones with campy live action TV shows and it's amazing to me it took so long for a Wonder Woman movie to be made. Some executive decided loving Green Lantern was a more bankable character. Wonder Woman requires, like... physical action, acrobatics, and an audience of interested women. Whereas Green Lantern, in 2011, was a recipe Hollywood had honed quite well at that point: a handsome white guy in a bright costume shooting special effects at things. Wonder Woman was probably a higher potential payoff than Green Lantern even at that point, but it was marginally risky, so it wouldn't have happened.
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Feb 13, 2021 13:07
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Wonder Woman also really doesn't have a solid grounding to work from like Superman or Batman, it's hard to even say who her big villains are or think of any iconic storylines. A lot of pitches would struggle to find a tone especially since you still have studio execs unwilling to actually have Galactus or Dr Doom look or act remotely comics-accurate. Seems like there was a period where superheroes all ended up fighting big CGI clouds.
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Feb 13, 2021 13:28
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Well yeah superhero movies are more than willing to cash in on supers but are a bit embarrassed by the silliness Which is dumb general audiences will buy into silliness as long as it’s well made
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Feb 13, 2021 13:38
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Cleretic posted:If we're just counting 'serious' movies, and excluding weirdo Bonds that even people who like Bond don't really count like Woody Allen... One thing that’s worth noting in that case is the various actors who played Bond mostly did so over a number of films and years. Connery did six official movies over about a decade, Moore did seven over ~12 years, Brosnan had four over seven years and Craig will have five over 15 years. Keaton, Kilmer, and Clooney can fall into a similar category as the non-Craig versions of Bond, since they were intended to be the same universe but that was still three actors over just four movies in less than a decade, and the latter two of them aren’t particularly well remembered. Mind you, wasn’t a huge deal for any of those films (Bond or Batman) other than some supporting characters. Craig basically rebooted Bond at the same time Bale was doing the same as Batman, but since then they’ve gone and rebooted the character twice more, first with Affleck and soon again with Pattinson. I think the latter is probably the bigger issue with some of the superhero stuff, particularly when it’s happening so frequently. See also the Fantastic Four movies, and to a lesser extent, Spider-Man.
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Feb 13, 2021 14:01
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fartknocker posted:Craig basically rebooted Bond at the same time Bale was doing the same as Batman, but since then they’ve gone and rebooted the character twice more, first with Affleck and soon again with Pattinson. I think the latter is probably the bigger issue with some of the superhero stuff, particularly when it’s happening so frequently. See also the Fantastic Four movies, and to a lesser extent, Spider-Man. The Bond movies also all just do the exact same continuity, even their one outright reboot, with Craig, wasn't a complete and total reset. Bond is always supposed to be the same guy in the same continuity and they just don't ask you to think too hard about how that makes the continuity super weird. And realistically, that ends up working just fine; you can watch any of those movies in any order and it doesn't matter too much, you still get a whole movie of Bond Action and there's never any question about if the ones you watched previously 'count'. Whereas superhero movies have kinda invented their own problem where they just want to keep rebooting movies and having their own internal continuities to them that actually are very important... but also get rebooted constantly. So there's only one movie Bond and that doesn't matter, but there are four movie Batmen and it apparently DOES matter there. And you can't even assume that you can distinguish them by actor, because one of those movie Batmen was played by three different guys. I feel like, weirdly, we have Superman Returns to blame for this one. That was the one time where they did try to go the Bond route of 'it's the same guy, don't think too hard about the continuity because that doesn't matter'. And that movie didn't go so hot, so perhaps they decided that element of it was to blame. Cleretic has a new favorite as of 14:33 on Feb 13, 2021 |
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Feb 13, 2021 14:26
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Media that didn't age well.
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Feb 13, 2021 14:34
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Crowetron posted:Grease is still better than Grease 2. Grease 2: It's got bowling AND Adrian Zmed. What's not to like?
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Feb 13, 2021 15:11
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bitterandtwisted posted:Before the modern movies, superheroes normies had heard of were the ones with campy live action TV shows and it's amazing to me it took so long for a Wonder Woman movie to be made. Some executive decided loving Green Lantern was a more bankable character. Green Lantern was more or less an attempt by DC to do Iron Man, without really getting why it worked in the first place.
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Feb 13, 2021 16:36
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Alhazred posted:Media that did not age well. how long is her arrrrrrrm
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Feb 13, 2021 19:13
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Alhazred posted:Media that didn't age well. God, why would you put Dollhouse in your big Whedon fan thing. Dollhouse was not good!
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Feb 13, 2021 19:27
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thetoughestbean posted:God, why would you put Dollhouse in your big Whedon fan thing. Dollhouse was not good! See, I liked Dollhouse, but now I know what kind of person Whedon is, I feel a bit sick that I ever defended it. Like yeah the premise is evil and hosed up and I thought that was understood by the show and the showrunners but hey APPARENTLY NOT SO MUCH.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:39
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bitterandtwisted posted:Before the modern movies, superheroes normies had heard of were the ones with campy live action TV shows and it's amazing to me it took so long for a Wonder Woman movie to be made. Some executive decided loving Green Lantern was a more bankable character. Green Lantern was going through a huge boom in the comics at that point in time and was one of DC's biggest sellers, consistently outselling most of their other books including Wonder Woman. It's not unreasonable for them to have thought that a Green Lantern would have been a big deal, and hell, if the movie had been better it probably would have been.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:47
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