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I think the generalist factions maybe just feel like they're too good at being able to do everything well instead of actually paying a price for being swiss army knives. If you just accept that campaign balance doesn't matter then who cares though.
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Feb 21, 2021 23:34
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I guarantee that no matter who it ends up being, I WILL keep using peasants forever, as is tradition! No I don't care that it is turn 300 and the Dwarftide is in full effect with armies full of Ironbreakers and flame cannons, have a lovely polearm and some gambeson and get out there! For ze lady!
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Feb 21, 2021 23:34
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orangelex44 posted:Also Magical cav with bound spells and doggo "cav". Their light cav (both ranged and melee) exists, but is so trash that it *basically* doesn't. As the last guy said, a chariot-type unit that disrupts frontlines without necessarily getting stuck in or having to turn around for cycle-charging. nah they just need their cav to be tuned better. dont turn bretonnia into a generalist faction, their non-cav is already efficient.
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Feb 21, 2021 23:37
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Just play orcs, they get several types of spider cavalry, wolf cavalry, chariots, light and heavy boar cavalry AND squig cavalry
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Feb 21, 2021 23:38
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Psycho Landlord posted:None of this justification makes you look like you actually understand Brettonia's schtick lol Look man if all you're going to counter with is "clearly you don't understand things the way that I, a superior being, do" then I will freely admit I have no counterpoint to that. I think that from a tactical mechanics perspective the race has some flaws. I am a strong proponent that sometimes you need to sacrifice on the thematic side in order to get the gameplay to function, and right now I think Bretonnia is just discount Empire. Being able to do a a third as much, even if they're 10% better at that fraction, is a sucky place for them to be. Psycho Landlord posted:It also occurs to me that the low model count mounted monster whatever unit to center your line around bit is a role occupied by both Paladins and Hippogryph Knights so this just keeps coming back to "they already do this by applying something else in a different way" Hippogryph Knights are overcosted for the role because they're flyers, and are a bit of a glass cannon. Paladins are ultimately just another variant on a basic melee hero, and is a duellist as opposed to a proper sustained frontliner. Muscle Wizard posted:nah they just need their cav to be tuned better. dont turn bretonnia into a generalist faction, their non-cav is already efficient. Should the Wood Elf DLC have only included more archers? Somehow despite not including any archers or wood spirits all three of the new units fit with the themes and playability of the race, without suddenly making them a generalist faction. I hardly think expanding options by three units is going to drastically alter the baseline of how Bretonnia plays. IMO the only time that's really happened was when the Skaven got their proper ranged toys in their first DLC, which most people at the time thought should have been in the base game release in the first place.
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Feb 21, 2021 23:43
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More units please more units = fun
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Feb 21, 2021 23:46
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Sinteres posted:I think the generalist factions maybe just feel like they're too good at being able to do everything well instead of actually paying a price for being swiss army knives. If you just accept that campaign balance doesn't matter then who cares though. The problem is that Bretonnia is in the position where they aren't wide enough to be a generalist faction, but aren't min/maxed enough to feel good as a specialist faction. They can't flex around in the same way as Empire, Greenskins, or High Elves but they also don't have the borderline-OP highs and nigh-crippling lows of Skaven, Dwarves, or Vampire Counts. The Bretonnian baseline is too close to the Empire. The Brets have flying cav, a slight edge in heavy cav, and a slightly larger disadvantage in medium and heavy infantry... which is not near enough of a specialization to make up the difference of not having gunpowder, multiple magic lines (including "religious" magic), war machines, and viable light cav. I'm OK with pushing them in either direction of more generalist or more specialized, but the former is honestly just a lot easier to do with their roster as currently constructed.
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Feb 21, 2021 23:55
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orangelex44 posted:I think that from a tactical mechanics perspective the race has some flaws. Yes this here, this is what you don't get Brettonia is flawed. It is intended to be flawed. It is very good at what it does in a vacuum but *what it does in a vacuum is not how the real world works and is why they are constantly on the backfoot* CA Brettonia does a very good job of being both incredibly flawed and still getting the knightly superman feeling down when things go your way on the field, both in MP and in Campaign. They don't need more tools in their toolbox. Hell if anything having some sort of Regenerating Monster Cavalry will just make them OP lol, Grail Knights are already extreme shitwreckers against every unit in the game on a charge and then when the guardians hit right behind them the game's basically over. Unless you're suggesting this unit should exist at the KotR tier, which is lol Pretty much the only thing you've suggested for your fanfiction brets that was good is the truffle hound unit (that is what you were getting at with the dogs, right?) Also again, lol at the idea of brets having just roving units of unicorns
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Feb 21, 2021 23:58
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Psycho Landlord posted:Yes this here, this is what you don't get To this I reiterate - orangelex44 posted:I am a strong proponent that sometimes you need to sacrifice on the thematic side in order to get the gameplay to function, and orangelex44 posted:if all you're going to counter with is "clearly you don't understand things the way that I, a superior being, do" then I will freely admit I have no counterpoint to that
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Feb 22, 2021 00:08
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I am a strong proponent of not that and also lol at not reading my post after complaining about people not reading about your unridden unicorns Were you the one that did those kickass AoW Planetfall tutorial vids? Because that lends a lot of context for your extreme insistence on perfect homogenous balance to everything Psycho Landlord fucked around with this message at 00:18 on Feb 22, 2021 |
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Feb 22, 2021 00:14
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Psycho Landlord posted:they did at one point at least, and it owned And in the new edition of the RPG they have cavalry who ride giant badgers. There's a reason why the Vampire Counts have never taken the Moot, and it's not the excuse that it's not worth the effort that they trot out to their friends. 
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Feb 22, 2021 00:22
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Cythereal posted:And in the new edition of the RPG they have cavalry who ride giant badgers. That's even better holy poo poo Add the halflings, CA
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Feb 22, 2021 00:23
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Ok, I tried playing Skaven, I can't do it. I was going for a full ranged army due to the fact that I couldn't get my Rattling Gunners to shoot over my infantry, but that's just to stressful to manage. Got rolled by loving Tilea so I'm going to head out for a bit. Make sure to quote this if I ever decide to give advice in this thread. Looks like another Vampire Counts campaign for me.
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Feb 22, 2021 00:28
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Try Brettonia!
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Feb 22, 2021 00:30
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Cardboard Fox posted:Ok, I tried playing Skaven, I can't do it. I was going for a full ranged army due to the fact that I couldn't get my Rattling Gunners to shoot over my infantry, but that's just to stressful to manage. Got rolled by loving Tilea so I'm going to head out for a bit. I just now finally beat a Skaven campaign just so I can finally say I did it and I just can't mesh with them. I love playing other gunline-happy factions but something about the Skaven was just constantly anti-fun for me. 194 turns to win as Ikit on ME and now I'm just thankful I don't ever have to do it again.
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Feb 22, 2021 00:31
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Psycho Landlord posted:I am a strong proponent of not that and also lol at not reading my post after complaining about people not reading about your unridden unicorns I did read your post. You said that their heavy cav was good at being heavy cav (and their elite heavy cav, good at being elite heavy cav), which isn't really any different from what others have already said today. That in no way addresses or replies to my point, which is that just being good (even being reallygood) at heavy cav is not enough of a niche for an entire faction to reasonably operate, even if it was their original theme from the tabletop. And yes, I did make those, and not, I don't think your second point follows at all. I am not advocating for, and have never insisted on, "perfect homogenous balance". Rather, my goal is on having the best asymmetric balance possible. I also prefer to have fewer options with more depth over more options that are more shallow; i.e. I'd rather have 5 factions with multiple viable playstyles over 100 factions with one apiece. orangelex44 fucked around with this message at 07:16 on Feb 22, 2021 |
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Feb 22, 2021 00:32
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Cardboard Fox posted:Ok, I tried playing Skaven, I can't do it. I was going for a full ranged army due to the fact that I couldn't get my Rattling Gunners to shoot over my infantry, but that's just to stressful to manage. Got rolled by loving Tilea so I'm going to head out for a bit. Don't go completely ranged, it's a trap. Use doomflayers and rogers and poo poo like that to tie up the enemy in melee THEN let the shooters loose. The fewer models the better, helps prevent friendly fire. But really just play Brettonia. Then your ranged absolutely can shoot over people's heads!
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Feb 22, 2021 00:33
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Everyone but me is wrong but Bretonnia is missing one single, vital cavalry unit from their roster. Horses riding horses. I'll take my cheque in the mail, CA.
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Feb 22, 2021 00:34
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Psycho Landlord posted:That isn't a warhammer picture you fool, you buffoon Warhammer and anime go well, like peanut butter and chocolate 
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Feb 22, 2021 00:36
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orangelex44 posted:The problem is that Bretonnia is in the position where they aren't wide enough to be a generalist faction, but aren't min/maxed enough to feel good as a specialist faction. They can't flex around in the same way as Empire, Greenskins, or High Elves but they also don't have the borderline-OP highs and nigh-crippling lows of Skaven, Dwarves, or Vampire Counts. The Bretonnian baseline is too close to the Empire. The Brets have flying cav, a slight edge in heavy cav, and a slightly larger disadvantage in medium and heavy infantry... which is not near enough of a specialization to make up the difference of not having gunpowder, multiple magic lines (including "religious" magic), war machines, and viable light cav. I'm OK with pushing them in either direction of more generalist or more specialized, but the former is honestly just a lot easier to do with their roster as currently constructed. Is this about total war or some other version of brett? Their heavy cav in Total War: Warhammer 2 is not just slightly better than the empire's. It's a ton better.
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Feb 22, 2021 00:39
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orangelex44 posted:I did read your post. You said that their heavy cav was good at being heavy cav (and their elite heavy cav, good at being elite heavy cav), which isn't really any different from what others have already said today. That in no way addresses or replies to my point, which is that just being good (even being reallygood) at heavy cav is not enough of a niche for an entire faction to reasonably operate, even if it was their original theme from the tabletop. So my assertion that adding such units would very likely overpower the Brets given how good they already are in their niche isn't worth commenting on? Have you seen how fast a well microed Brettonian army can route the other guy? Giving them an actual, no bullshit, purpose built supertank tarpit to fling around and let their cav work unopposed would be actually absurd. orangelex44 posted:And yes, I did make those, and not, I don't think your second point follows at all. I am not advocating for,, and have never insisted on, "perfect homogenous balance". Rather, my goal is on having the best asymmetric balance possible. Those were good vids, thank you for making them. That said orangelex44 posted:I also prefer to have fewer options with more depth over more options that are more shallow; i.e. I'd rather have 5 factions with multiple viable playstyles over 100 factions with one apiece. I have very bad news for you about Warhammer, the IP.
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Feb 22, 2021 00:39
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Vulnerabilities in rosters own, especially flavorful ones. I like Brets as is.
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Feb 22, 2021 00:43
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I guess a line of pure halberd infantry would be a real problem for an all heavy cav army, but the solution there is not to get bogged down, and keep your cav wheeling, charging and flanking.
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Feb 22, 2021 00:47
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Personally I like to crash a bunch of Pegasi and Hippogryphs into the rear end end of such forces If you're getting flank charged from above is that like a double flank charge
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Feb 22, 2021 00:49
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Psycho Landlord posted:Don't go completely ranged, it's a trap. Use doomflayers and rogers and poo poo like that to tie up the enemy in melee THEN let the shooters loose. The fewer models the better, helps prevent friendly fire. I'll have to look up some videos on Rattling Gun positioning because it's obvious I was doing it wrong. I have a serious problem when I need to reposition ranged units to the side of my infantry, and it's one of the reasons I also never use Handgunners when playing Empire. Sisters of Avelorn have also spoiled me from my recent High Elf campaign. This brings me to a question: How do I know if a ranged unit will fire over my infantry line? Empire Crossbowmen and Huntsman can do it easily, but Handgunners can't? Is there an in-game stat that lets me know?
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Feb 22, 2021 00:53
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Cardboard Fox posted:This brings me to a question: How do I know if a ranged unit will fire over my infantry line? Empire Crossbowmen and Huntsman can do it easily, but Handgunners can't? Is there an in-game stat that lets me know? It's kind of a common sense thing. If the weapon is direct fire and doesn't have elevation, like a gun, it won't fire through troops. Bows and the like can be arced. Yes I know this makes no sense for crossbows.
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Feb 22, 2021 00:58
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Cardboard Fox posted:I'll have to look up some videos on Rattling Gun positioning because it's obvious I was doing it wrong. I have a serious problem when I need to reposition ranged units to the side of my infantry, and it's one of the reasons I also never use Handgunners when playing Empire. Guns can't, everything else can. That said, bows and crossbows shouldn't be able to either, and you will not convince me otherwise.
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Feb 22, 2021 01:05
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Psycho Landlord posted:It's kind of a common sense thing. If the weapon is direct fire and doesn't have elevation, like a gun, it won't fire through troops. Bows and the like can be arced. Yes I know this makes no sense for crossbows. Yeah, I was going to say what kind of magic crossbows do these Empire troops use. Sounds like some Chaos magic... I have not decided whether I want to get better with direct fire units or to just not use them at all. Thanks!
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Feb 22, 2021 01:06
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Checkerboard formation will save you
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Feb 22, 2021 01:08
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Ravenfood posted:Guns can't, everything else can. That said, bows and crossbows shouldn't be able to either, and you will not convince me otherwise. Against unarmored or low armor targets, bows being able to arc works perfectly fine. Like, a Flagellant might not be as hurt by an arced arrow as one fired directly, but it's still going to dig in and do damage - particularly when taking massed volley fire into account. It's when they're arcing shots into your full/gromril/chaos plate armored infantry and still doing full AP damage that it's incredibly silly.
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Feb 22, 2021 01:10
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I would like a Bretonnia roster overhaul because I keep forgetting the differences between all their various knight cavalry units
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Feb 22, 2021 01:10
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Just make those cowardly ranged units fight in melee, they got swords and poo poo too
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Feb 22, 2021 01:11
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For sigmar
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Feb 22, 2021 01:11
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Lt. Danger posted:I would like a Bretonnia roster overhaul because I keep forgetting the differences between all their various knight cavalry units More gold/bigger hats = better
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Feb 22, 2021 01:13
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Psycho Landlord posted:It's kind of a common sense thing. If the weapon is direct fire and doesn't have elevation, like a gun, it won't fire through troops. Bows and the like can be arced. Yes I know this makes no sense for crossbows. they're like COD players who got really good at arcing their knife throws
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Feb 22, 2021 01:19
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Psycho Landlord posted:So my assertion that adding such units would very likely overpower the Brets given how good they already are in their niche isn't worth commenting on? Have you seen how fast a well microed Brettonian army can route the other guy? Giving them an actual, no bullshit, purpose built supertank tarpit to fling around and let their cav work unopposed would be actually absurd. I don't think it would, provided things were costed appropriately. I trust that CA generally gets it right, and on the occasions they don't they have been receptive to making changes to fix it later. I'm also looking primarily to MP over SP, because let's be honest SP balance as went out the window with Ikit Claw anyway. Psycho Landlord posted:I have very bad news for you about Warhammer, the IP. I mean, there actually aren't any other races in TW:WH that are exclusively one-note like Brettonia - except, perhaps, Chaos but that's a discussion for a different day. Everyone else has several viable plans in MP. Aside from Chaos the next closest is the Dawi (always playing defense, but they can mix and match from gunpowder/archers/grenadiers/artillery as ranged, slayers/warriors/miners as melee, and have the flying machines overhead while you wait for the enemy) followed by one of Norsca (who still have infantry, skirmish cav, monstrous infantry, summons, and single entities to mix and match between), Lizardmen (who actually have a flexible roster that can accommodate several builds but currently are tuned to lean on a couple specific units far too much), or Vampire Counts (flyers, summons, monster mash, or hammer-and-anvil). It only gets more diverse from there. I don't think it's a stretch to say that Bretonnia is an outlier, and that every other race that even approaches a similar position is generally considered overdue for a roster rework.
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Feb 22, 2021 01:30
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yikes! posted:Is this about total war or some other version of brett? Their heavy cav in Total War: Warhammer 2 is not just slightly better than the empire's. It's a ton better. If you compare cost-to-cost? It's not that big of a difference, assuming you aren't using the explicit "THIS HEAVY CAV HARD COUNTERS LARGE" unit as your baseline. Bretonnia has a slightly higher top end, but they pay for it. They also get flying cav but as a general claim the mobility increase from flying is overcosted.
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Feb 22, 2021 01:35
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orangelex44 posted:If you compare cost-to-cost? It's not that big of a difference, assuming you aren't using the explicit "THIS HEAVY CAV HARD COUNTERS LARGE" unit as your baseline. Bretonnia has a slightly higher top end, but they pay for it. They also get flying cav but as a general claim the mobility increase from flying is overcosted. 1) Flying Cav is much, much harder (in some match ups impossible) to intercept. That is absolutely worth the cost. 2) Are you accounting for Lance formation in your comparisons here? Because pure stats are missing some important context re bret cav being as good as it is.
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Feb 22, 2021 01:47
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After playing as bandits in three kingdoms it would be cool to see a herrimault legendary lord that focused on buffing peasants to be sneaky, setting traps, and general guerrilla warfare stuff, but I realise at that point the faction basically wouldn't be Brettonian.
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Feb 22, 2021 01:49
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Id be interested in a "King of the Jungle" archetype for Bretonnia
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Feb 22, 2021 02:08
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