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Everyone posted:Or she's pretty much been a red herring this whole time and the showrunners did what they did because they were hoping people would think "Anya the Vengeance Demon from Buffy can't possibly be mostly irrelevant to all this." Alternatively its even possible that nearly 20 years after Buffy went off the air its supporting characters aren't really registering that way in casting decisions.
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Feb 25, 2021 02:11
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STAC Goat posted:I'd even suggest that maybe its just a small meta laugh, like casting Debra Jo Rupp as a background character we haven't seen since the beginning. The whole show has been meta references to old tv so maybe someone thought it would be funny to throw an actress from an old supernatural show into their one. I think that first point is valid. The second one... I don't know. Joss Whedon wrote and directed the first two Avengers movies and created the Agents of SHIELD TV show. That's some pretty hefty (if relatively early) involved in some Marvel. Figure there might be some heightened awareness of her because of that.
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Feb 25, 2021 02:26
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I wouldn't bet money on there being another another villain, but if there is I bet they also get a song something witches and comedy have in common is a rule of threes, you see
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Feb 25, 2021 02:27
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Why the gently caress is it so hard to believe they would change a characters alignment from the comics? They did it to the entire Skrull race. Also Holy Hell that song.
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Feb 25, 2021 02:28
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STAC Goat posted:Alternatively its even possible that nearly 20 years after Buffy went off the air its supporting characters aren't really registering that way in casting decisions. Emma Caulfield also starred in Timer, which Jac Shaeffer wrote and directed. And I believe Caulfield has said that Shaeffer asked her to be on the show, so Shaeffer's doing Caulfield a solid by giving her a cameo, or there are plans for Dottie.
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Feb 25, 2021 02:35
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Lammasu posted:Why the gently caress is it so hard to believe they would change a characters alignment from the comics? They did it to the entire Skrull race. Also, Alexander Pierce, who I don't think ever turned heel in the comics.
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Feb 25, 2021 02:38
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Everyone posted:I think that first point is valid. The second one... I don't know. Joss Whedon wrote and directed the first two Avengers movies and created the Agents of SHIELD TV show. That's some pretty hefty (if relatively early) involved in some Marvel. Figure there might be some heightened awareness of her because of that. Yeah but Whedon's fallen out with MCU for awhile even before all his current troubles and I don't remember him getting any of the other Buffy people in roles? Maybe I forgot some? I mean I'm sure when casting her someone knew her resume. I just don't know how much that matters. howe_sam posted:Emma Caulfield also starred in Timer, which Jac Shaeffer wrote and directed. And I believe Caulfield has said that Shaeffer asked her to be on the show, so Shaeffer's doing Caulfield a solid by giving her a cameo, or there are plans for Dottie. That I didn't know and makes sense, but again could just be the creator getting a friend or reliable actress or something into a small role or a gag or anything. I don't think Caulfield is nearly a big enough deal to HAVE to be a bigger role than she appears to be.
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Feb 25, 2021 02:47
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Lunatic Sledge posted:I wouldn't bet money on there being another another villain, but if there is I bet they also get a song How do you think they're going to explain the hex's creation when neither Wanda or Agatha appear to have any idea how it started, and last episode showed us Agatha manipulating "Pietro," to try to find out it's origins, if not with another villain? Lammasu posted:Why the gently caress is it so hard to believe they would change a characters alignment from the comics? They did it to the entire Skrull race. Also Holy Hell that song. Putting aside that Marvel are doing a Secret Invasion storyline where Skrulls are going to be the villains, so they didn't change their alignment, only that of some Skrulls, the fact they did it once would not mean it's common. I don't think anyone has said "it's impossible", only that it's unlikely, since there are plenty of pre-existing villains they could use if they wanted a villain and Marvel generally does keep characters roughly similar to their comic portrayal.
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Feb 25, 2021 02:47
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tsob posted:How do you think they're going to explain the hex's creation when neither Wanda or Agatha appear to have any idea how it started, and last episode showed us Agatha manipulating "Pietro," to try to find out it's origins, if not with another villain? I mean I wouldn't bet against it, either I could armchair it swinging either way
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Feb 25, 2021 03:00
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The chance of there being a bigger threat behind Agatha isn't too far-fetched, but the idea that the Agatha villain reveal itself is some sort of fake-out, somehow, feels like trying to see twists as being twists just for the sake of there having to be twists behind every twist. Honestly, it'd be kind of emblematic of a story that's insecure about its own writing. You don't need to subvert the very expectations that you've established just to try and trick the audience. "And I killed the dog too!" is not them being subtle about this.
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Feb 25, 2021 03:04
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BrianWilly posted:The chance of there being a bigger threat behind Agatha isn't too far-fetched, but the idea that the Agatha villain reveal itself is some sort of fake-out, somehow, feels like trying to see twists as being twists just for the sake of there having to be twists behind every twist. Honestly, it'd be kind of emblematic of a story that's insecure about its own writing. You don't need to subvert expectations that you've established just to try and trick the audience. Do we know for sure that the dog was not evil? There is a canonical evil cat in the MCU, so Agatha could have been saving the world from the even more powerful evil dog.
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Feb 25, 2021 03:05
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BrianWilly posted:The chance of there being a bigger threat behind Agatha isn't too far-fetched, but the idea that the Agatha villain reveal itself is some sort of fake-out, somehow, feels like trying to see twists as being twists just for the sake of there having to be twists behind every twist. Honestly, it'd be kind of emblematic of a story that's insecure about its own writing. You don't need to subvert the very expectations that you've established just to try and trick the audience. See, I dont want to take away from the Agatha reveal (I loving adore Hahn) or wanting to see a twist that isn't there, I've loved every bit of this show so far since the Dick Van Dyke show love letter, but some of the things they've done with Dottie just jump out at me. I didn't even know she was a Buffy actress.
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Feb 25, 2021 03:07
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It honestly seems like it would be kind of annoying if the episode after "Agatha All Along" they went "nah, kidding, fakeout." There's definitely room for someone above both Wanda and Agatha and whether that someone will factor into the finale or not I do think they'll be revealed by the end of the season. But I think its safe to say Agatha's not secretly altruistic if only becaus that would be a dumb rear end thing to do right after revealing her as a cackling dog killing kidnapping villain. I think there's room for her be a Loki like character though. Not the ultimate bad guy, just an opportunist, too much fun to completely hate if she shows up later to help Wanda or Strange or someone when it suits her needs.
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Feb 25, 2021 03:08
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STAC Goat posted:Yeah but Whedon's fallen out with MCU for awhile even before all his current troubles and I don't remember him getting any of the other Buffy people in roles? Maybe I forgot some? Most of the Whedon alums popped up in Agents of Shield. Of the top of my head they brought in J August Richards, Ron Glass, Amy Acker, Dichen Lachman, and of course Enver (who did also have that bit part in Avengers). Plus Whedon said that he was going to cast Cobie Smulders as Diana in his Wonder Woman movie so that's probably why she wound up being Maria Hill.
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Feb 25, 2021 03:10
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BrianWilly posted:The chance of there being a bigger threat behind Agatha isn't too far-fetched, but the idea that the Agatha villain reveal itself is some sort of fake-out, somehow, feels like trying to see twists as being twists just for the sake of there having to be twists behind every twist. Honestly, it'd be kind of emblematic of a story that's insecure about its own writing. You don't need to subvert the very expectations that you've established just to try and trick the audience. Casting any arguments about why it's possible Agatha is either not a villain at all or not the main villain as a desire for a twist is reductive, and frankly kind of obstinate, since people have given multiple reasons that's have nothing to do with "but the show needs a twist".
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Feb 25, 2021 03:11
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tsob posted:Casting any arguments about why it's possible Agatha is either not a villain at all or not the main villain as a desire for a twist is reductive, and frankly kind of obstinate, since people have given multiple reasons that's have nothing to do with "but the show needs a twist". We don't know anything behind the specifics of Agatha's schemes at all, so preemptively deciding that there must be better explanations for an explanation that we haven't even heard yet absolutely feels like wanting there to be another twist for the sake of it.
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Feb 25, 2021 03:18
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Ok did a rewatch and the mailman is definitely fishy. There's going to be many magic users revealed I think.
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Feb 25, 2021 03:23
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VectorSigma posted:Ok did a rewatch and the mailman is definitely fishy. There's going to be many magic users revealed I think. It turns out Westview, NJ is the Hogsmeade of the eastern seaboard.
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Feb 25, 2021 03:26
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Like, I can see Dottie being significant, maybe -- it's not completely impossible -- but maybe it's also that with Monica and Agatha both being revealed as "interlopers," there aren't all that many named characters left in the story who are just normal people from Westville. There should be characters like that, like Herb and Norm and maybe Dottie.
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Feb 25, 2021 03:27
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Yeah, I think that's another side of it. The need to have every character who remotely stands out be a player in this intrusion kind of takes away from the fact that there's hundreds of victims and at least a few of them should be somewhat memorable.
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Feb 25, 2021 03:32
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BrianWilly posted:Like, I can see Dottie being significant, maybe -- it's not completely impossible -- but maybe it's also that with Monica and Agatha both being revealed as "interlopers," there aren't all that many named characters left in the story who are just normal people from Westville. There should be characters like that, like Herb and Norm and maybe Dottie. Agreed, it's silly for everyone to be somebody, and I honestly wouldn't if not for what I said in my last post. There absolutely should be just poor unfortunate bystanders like Norm, Herb, and Debra Jo.
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Feb 25, 2021 03:34
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The thing I can't figure out is the mailman. He was being mind controlled by Agatha to act suspicious to get Vision to leave to find the truth. That seems to pretty definitely indicate that he isn't "in on it" and he doesn't seem to have any special powers or other significance. But, he was also one of the three people who SWORD couldn't identify that were likely not originally from the town. Were he and Dottie just not identified yet by SWORD in order to keep it from being too obvious that Agatha was the only one not originally from the town? Was he just there to have a consistent character that they could show changing through the years? Intentional red herring?
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Feb 25, 2021 03:35
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They don't necessarily have to be "in on it" or be major characters, but I get the distinct feeling there's more magic here than just Agatha and Wanda. edit: the last appearance of the mailman is as a UPS-alike called "Presto"
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Feb 25, 2021 03:35
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howe_sam posted:Most of the Whedon alums popped up in Agents of Shield. Of the top of my head they brought in J August Richards, Ron Glass, Amy Acker, Dichen Lachman, and of course Enver (who did also have that bit part in Avengers). Plus Whedon said that he was going to cast Cobie Smulders as Diana in his Wonder Woman movie so that's probably why she wound up being Maria Hill. Also I'm pretty sure Alexis Denisof was Thanos' magic henchman
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Feb 25, 2021 03:56
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BrianWilly posted:What, that we don't know where exactly the Hex came from, if not Agatha? The answer could be as simple as "Wanda did it subconsciously." Or it could be anything else, without the whole eleventh-hour villain theme song actually just being another swerve. Agatha's reveal is not 11th hour. It happened at the end of the 7th episode of 9 episodes total. If it was to be 11th hour, it'd happen at the end of the penultimate episode; not the third to last episode. That aside, if the show builds up the mystery of the origin of the hex and Wanda's expanded powers for several episodes, with multiple characters, including Wanda herself, wondering about it, only to resolve it by going "well, she just didn't know about it" then that seems like some really weak writing and I would absolutely prefer the show have another villain than do that, yes. It's not just that though, or it being uncommon for Marvel to use a character like Agatha as a villain when they have plenty of pre-existing options for villains in the comics if that's all they wanted. It's also the fact that multiple characters have done the kind of things that made Agatha seem significant (beyond have a recognizable name), that Agatha herself possibly has sympathetic motives going off her constant talk about her husband and seemingly being behind the "For the Kids" chant from episode 2, that some of Agatha's actions don't really seem to have much purpose as villainous actions and that if she can't even control Wanda directly it'd seem odd to leave two episodes to deal with her, especially when Monica and Vision are both converging on her location at the moment. Oh, and the fact that Agatha has what looks like a demonic book; which implies there's a demon. Why was Agatha manipulating Herb just before Vision talked to him for instance? One would presume that she was trying to make him notice something weird, and rebel against Wanda but (a) that seems like a good thing, (b) Wanda was alone for hours on end plenty before that as Vision worked, if all she wanted was for Vision to leave for a villainous purpose (and she knows both that Vision is still around and that Monica is close; so she can't have been waiting specifically until he died or left unless she just gave up on that for no apparent reason) and (c) Vision had already been noticing weird stuff that it doesn't seem likely she's responsible for and generally questioning his new life in the Hex before Agatha even apparently came in to the Hex, so why have her involved in that plot point at all, if all she's doing is adding slightly to things that already exist without her? That just seems like needless complexity. What did having Vision find her in the car accomplish, for instance, when he's the one who tells her he intends to leave the Hex to find help before she ever mentions anything of the kind after interacting with lots of frozen people throughout the outskirts of the town? Or is the show going to say she's responsible for all of that too, and basically lift all responsibility off Wanda? Not only that, but what would she have done if Vision didn't fly up at that moment? Was she just going to sit there for a few hours hoping he'd spot her and decide to investigate her car specifically, even though she did nothing to influence him to do so? It's just odd behavior for a villain to have, since she appears to be relying on luck to have things work out towards her desired goal and not actually accomplishing anything even if luck is on her side, since again, Vision had already noticed lots of things and decided to leave town going off his own words to Agatha. All of which is putting aside that until a week ago, a lot of people were acting like Wanda was the villain of the story and that having an external villain for her like Agatha would be a twist for it's own sake. One that might happen, but that would weaken the story the show was setting up if it did. The over the top nature of the Agatha reveal, including having her own theme song, seems to point to it being something within the fake reality Wanda is creating, and not an external force acting against her all too. One or two things on their own wouldn't really stand out, but there are half a dozen or more seemingly odd things about Agatha as a villain, so it does seem like there's more going on. Maybe there isn't though. We'll know in two weeks. On the other hand, why must the villain introduction be stuck to, once revealed? Why can't the show do something else with Agatha, such as using her as Wanda's attempt to externalize her guilt or casting her as someone else acting due to grief who Wanda can see herself and how horrible her actions are through once it's revealed she's in league with some greater power? Is there some rule of TV the show would be breaking if they did that? Is discussing just the possibility, in a show that's encouraging that kind of thinking, so against the grain that it could only be desired as a twist, for it's own sake? tsob fucked around with this message at 13:45 on Feb 25, 2021 |
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Feb 25, 2021 04:02
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When Agatha froze Herb in the 70s, they told Vision that Monica was an outsider and didn't belong in Westview. Then Agatha stood by Wanda and told her Monica was wrong. She definitely doesn't want any outsiders interfering with the Hex
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Feb 25, 2021 05:18
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Lunatic Sledge posted:I wouldn't bet money on there being another another villain, but if there is I bet they also get a song So you're saying Seline? Or maybe Saturnyne?
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Feb 25, 2021 05:35
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Everyone posted:I stated it up-thread, but I don't have a problem with Agatha being "the villain." The real question for me is "Who is singing the Agatha All Along" song? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkxuRYQtmdw
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Feb 25, 2021 05:39
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I know IMDB isn't always reliable but re: Dottie being important Her actress is only listed as being in three episodes, which if true means she won't be showing up again
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Feb 25, 2021 05:46
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Hey guys does anyone have any cool opinions on what sort of songs Hitler would sing ITT?
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Feb 25, 2021 05:53
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Infinitum posted:Hey guys does anyone have any cool opinions on what sort of songs Hitler would sing ITT? Garagecore, Triphop, and Mumblenoise.
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Feb 25, 2021 05:55
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Infinitum posted:Hey guys does anyone have any cool opinions on what sort of songs Hitler would sing ITT? Too bad this version of Bucky didn't kill Hitler, we could ask him.
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Feb 25, 2021 06:01
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We are getting a Salem witch trial scene from set photos, and I think it's likely it's not a coincidence that there is a coven of witches in Westview. Geographically it might be a site of The Nexus (which in the comics is in Florida), or the site of a witch massacre or something similar. If that's the case Dottie is likely one of them If you rewatch the trailers there is a scene of Wanda looking at a floating exploding/imploding soul stone so I think it's very likely the stones reforming will be a plot point.
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Feb 25, 2021 06:07
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BurritoJustice posted:We are getting a Salem witch trial scene from set photos, and I think it's likely it's not a coincidence that there is a coven of witches in Westview. Geographically it might be a site of The Nexus (which in the comics is in Florida), or the site of a witch massacre or something similar. If that's the case Dottie is likely one of them It's the mind stone, which is in Vision's head.
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Feb 25, 2021 06:15
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There's a probable spoiler for Black Widow from the new Hawkeye show. It's not super surprising, but Florence Pugh is guest starring in an episode and is credited as "Black Widow" on the cast sheet. So far, all of the Phase 4 projects have some sort of connection to the cosmic/multiverse; except for Falcon and The Winter Soldier and Hawkeye. Is there any way they could be connected or probably just off on their own contained stories?
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Feb 25, 2021 06:25
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VectorSigma posted:Ok did a rewatch and the mailman is definitely fishy. There's going to be many magic users revealed I think. I unironically want this reveal for Westview, because Marvel's doorways to secret magical realms and fictional countries are always in far off "exotic" places like the Himalayas or Eastern Europe or Africa. Put one in suburban New Jersey for a change, you cowards.
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Feb 25, 2021 06:47
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:It's the mind stone, which is in Vision's head. Colourblindness strikes again
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Feb 25, 2021 06:50
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:There's a probable spoiler for Black Widow from the new Hawkeye show. It's not super surprising, but Florence Pugh is guest starring in an episode and is credited as "Black Widow" on the cast sheet. Falcon and Winter Soldier is probably gonna help set up mutants in the MCU. Hawkeye might end up having Kate meet up with some Young Avengers, but I think those two series are gonna be more grounded. Loki though is apparently gonna be another series worth mutiverse shenanigans.
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Feb 25, 2021 06:54
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Everyone posted:I stated it up-thread, but I don't have a problem with Agatha being "the villain." The real question for me is "Who is singing the Agatha All Along" song? Go back to posting in D&D, pal
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Feb 25, 2021 09:33
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I'm fairly strongly in the 'Agatha isn't really a villain, that isn't really a swerve' camp now. The show has been entirely consistent that the 'show within a show' is entirely controlled by what Wanda is thinking/feeling/wants. Agatha 'reveals' herself to say 'it was me all along' right at the point where Wanda is most questioning whether she's actually being the bad guy. The only thing that's different now is that the show isn't being broadcast, which is either Agnes preventing the outside world from knowing she exists, or a bit of writing sleight-of-hand to take Sword out of play from the story.
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Feb 25, 2021 10:04
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