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Oh dear me posted:Who will be elected because too many lefties have quit. Yes, it is likely, but it is not certain. They didn't stop the porridge filled balloon getting elected in the first place.
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Feb 26, 2021 13:42
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sinky posted:They didn't stop the porridge filled balloon getting elected in the first place. In fact lots of them elected him
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Feb 26, 2021 13:43
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Which is why I predicated my thought on the idea that the last year will be instructive as far as trusting people goes. It is also possible that a better, less timid left wing candidate might run. I did say I didn't think it was a very good plan, only that all the other ones seem worse.
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Feb 26, 2021 13:44
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Continuity NIP posted:In fact lots of them elected him That was indeed depressing, but I don't think you can assume they would again. The one good thing Starmer has done is teach another generation about the dangers of choosing respectable haircuts.
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Feb 26, 2021 13:52
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Isomermaid posted:I do wonder how badtheir numbers really are though if theyre still counting people who have left If a bunch of unpaid leftist members voted someone left aligned onto the NEC, I'm sure there'd suddenly be an inquiry. But as it stands, it currently suits them to inflate the numbers. Flayer posted:I'm guessing it's some dumb strategy so they can use it as a "pro-business" bullet point in their promotional material. There are a lot of millionaires and billionaires who want to consider themselves progressive (I know that in reality they're not, by nature of their being). I'm thinking about dickheads like Branson who would love to be regarded as the British Bill Gates despite running a number of businesses that are openly poisoning the planet. In the US, one way to do that is to dump money on the Democrats as the less nakedly evil face of capitalism. The problem is that in the UK the Labour party was briefly led by a man who was suggesting actual socialist policies that would be anathema to their way of life. What Keith wants to be is the democrats in the US. He wants to say he's progressive while hiring ministers who keep saying and validating transphobic things. He wants to say he's not racist while promising to crack down on "inner city gangs" and "youth knife crime" (why is my dog barking). Most important of all, he wants to be seen as the nice party so that all of the businesses who know how toxic the tories are can donate to politics without being called a tory donor, just not that nasty Jerimy Crobny who wants to take away all our yachts and replace them with genders. Honestly what Keith wants is money from donors who are evil enough to want to preserve the status quo, but don't want to be tarred by association with the tories. And he thinks somehow that with a big warchest he can out-tory the tories. Which just shows his absolute baseline lack of political savvy.
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Feb 26, 2021 13:53
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If he does have a big enough warchest he can buy positive exposure in the centrist press. Who reads the centrist press though?
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Feb 26, 2021 13:55
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We are, right now, seeing Keir Starmer poo poo himself on the national stage. He has basically zero base of dedicated support. Corbyn could hang on as leader despite monstering in the press and very low approval ratings because he had a large base of support in the Labour party, and his leadership had a wider goal than "be elected". Starmer has none of that. Almost no one is a die-hard Starmerite. The people he was elected to placate - The Guardian - have turned on him. Every day that passes, the likelihood that he'll be the leader at the next election drops. I still wouldn't bet on it yet, but the odds are better all the time. If there is a leadership election, it would be really good if there were leftists in the party already to vote and organise. Also, leftists can try and limit the damage done to the party until that time. There is a clear reason to stay in the Labour party. forkboy84 posted:I'm at a point where I am struggling to justify regarding Labour members as comrades because they seem more interested in a political party unfit for purpose than in the working class. Sorry. So, suffice to say, go gently caress yourself. AFAICT you have two alternative plans: 1) A pipe dream about the SCG splitting away with union backing and becoming a splinter party. Even putting aside the fact that the history books are littered with leftist splinter parties that amounted to very little (and while not leftist we have just had the illustrious example of Change UK) and that the most likely outcome would be a shitload of socialists losing their seats while the Labour right gains total utter control, similar to what happened to the Tories in 2019 - you still admit that the biggest impact this new party could have would be to influence the Labour party. Which won't work at all if there are no leftists left in the Labour party. 2) An even more ludicrous fantasy about a violent revolution or coup that will be enacted by persons unknown, but apparently not you. These are not good plans. And significantly less likely to work to create anything approaching a socialist country than being a Labour party member and organising for the left. I'm not sure exactly what kind of comradeship you even offer? The incredible solidarity of quitting exactly when things get difficult and dedicating to yourself of the ultimate praxis of posting, and calling people actually doing poo poo traitors, presumably.
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Feb 26, 2021 13:59
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We need to give up on the labour party, we need to fling our bodies at the conservatives in a desperate last ditch attempt at inflicting temporary damage against them
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Feb 26, 2021 14:01
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Comrade Fakename posted:2) An even more ludicrous fantasy about a violent revolution or coup that will be enacted by persons unknown, but apparently not you.
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Feb 26, 2021 14:02
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Ash Crimson posted:We need to give up on the labour party, we need to fling our bodies at the conservatives in a desperate last ditch attempt at inflicting temporary damage against them Tories, unlike killbots, do not have a preset kill limit.
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Feb 26, 2021 14:03
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Jeremy Gilbert (read him if you don't already) also points out that the Labour right are very incurious about the Tories and think they are literally cartoonish laissez faire Victorians and so Labour only needs to be *slightly* better than that to be electable. This means Labour is very vulnerable to the Tories throwing money at key constituencies and doing things like having black and brown voices at the top of the party railing against "wokeness" and wanting tough immigration policies to head off racism accusations.
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Feb 26, 2021 14:06
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shamima begum is a perfect example of why starmer is never winning the flag shagging vote
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Feb 26, 2021 14:06
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Comrade Fakename posted:We are, right now, seeing Keir Starmer poo poo himself on the national stage. He has basically zero base of dedicated support. Corbyn could hang on as leader despite monstering in the press and very low approval ratings because he had a large base of support in the Labour party, and his leadership had a wider goal than "be elected". Starmer has none of that. Almost no one is a die-hard Starmerite. The people he was elected to placate - The Guardian - have turned on him. I think it's very important to point out that Starmer basically won power by hoodwinking a lot of people (the fact that many people on the left including one of the founders of Momentum were able to be hoodwinked is a problem for the left of course) and that a lot of those people are now very upset. Personally I think Starmer will be in power by the 2024 election but mainly because there will not be any major elections before that point most likely, and the fact the party generally doesn't like to change tack between elections. But the right are going to be going after him the worse he does, especially if polling consistently ends up below the 32% mark that Labour got in 2019.
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Feb 26, 2021 14:12
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I went and looked up Jeremy Gilbert and jesus christ if this is actually the plan https://twitter.com/jemgilbert/status/1365058705520263175?s=20
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Feb 26, 2021 14:13
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Comrade Fakename posted:We are, right now, seeing Keir Starmer poo poo himself on the national stage. He has basically zero base of dedicated support. labour: big donors tories: big dinners Except that never works for Labour because the Tories are so much better at throwing money around and being pro capitalism. Blair seemed able to leverage Murdoch and Dacre by convincing them that the tories were toxic and that he wouldn't rock the boat for them. I think Keith is trying to do the same, except Blair already poisoned that well and shame is not a concept that exists in politics any more. The other possibility is that he knows he's on his way out, and is trying to set up habitable conditions for the next right wing ghoul that slithers in after him. The press can then back the new person (Jessflips) while Keith takes all of the damage as interrim fall guy. Bobby Deluxe fucked around with this message at 14:21 on Feb 26, 2021 |
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Feb 26, 2021 14:14
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In lighter news: https://twitter.com/DawnHFoster/status/1365229375877238786
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Feb 26, 2021 14:21
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Comrade Fakename posted:In lighter news: https://twitter.com/markpopham/status/1186995263807864832?s=20
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Feb 26, 2021 14:25
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For a moment given the tweet I thought that was in character as the naomi from metal gear.
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Feb 26, 2021 14:26
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Comrade Fakename posted:2) An even more ludicrous fantasy about a violent revolution or coup that will be enacted by persons unknown, but apparently not you. If things continue as they are, we are on track for another worldwide revolution, but not before things get a lot worse - maybe even another hundred years. While it would be stupid to say its impossible, people are not in the right place yet to push hard at this time. What we are seeing is the age old pattern of the people in charge forgetting that they are outnumbered, and that they need to placate the masses to keep their power - noone cares who the social elite is (and there is always an elite), as long as they are getting on fine. once the elite start to treat the workers like slaves, we get back on track to the pitchforks. We had a good time after WWII, but a lot of those regulations got rolled back by Regan/Thatcher, and its been downhill since. I've been watching the documentry Capital in the 21st century, and while its TV bite stuff, it does a good job at making you mad about stuff.
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Feb 26, 2021 14:26
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I am already mad all the time, I do not have the capacity to get madder.
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Feb 26, 2021 14:27
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Is Naomi Wolf the one who accidentally misread a term in old documents and then created a book that was hilarious inaccurate because of it?
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Feb 26, 2021 14:27
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Comrade Fakename posted:In lighter news: There's a reason Naomi Klein (author of The Shock Doctrine and a bunch of other influential anti capitalist literature) has to keep going 'no, I'm not that Naomi'. Wolf's Wikipedia page is amazing, BTW.
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Feb 26, 2021 14:28
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Josef bugman posted:Is Naomi Wolf the one who accidentally misread a term in old documents and then created a book that was hilarious inaccurate because of it? Oh is she the "death recorded" person? I have no idea who naomi wolf is.
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Feb 26, 2021 14:29
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I honestly cannot begin to justify paying money to a political party that hate me and my very existence for the vague hope of getting someone who might be more leftist and might have a chance of winning.
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Feb 26, 2021 14:29
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OwlFancier posted:Oh is she the "death recorded" person? I have no idea who naomi wolf is. I think she's the one who injected Snake with FOXDIE, so it checks out she's in the know on this nanopatticle development
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Feb 26, 2021 14:32
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Comrade Fakename posted:In lighter news: Is this a TNG season 8 plot
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Feb 26, 2021 14:32
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peanut- posted:I went and looked up Jeremy Gilbert and jesus christ if this is actually the plan  i see this ending well, a person incapable of taking downturns gracefully and whose popularity is at best very specific, vs. the political equivalent of a union-jack-coloured wacky inflatable arm flailing tubeman seriously though, do the right have any candidates capable of confronting a fully powered-up Johnson, bursting with spunk, at all?
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Feb 26, 2021 14:33
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Jose posted:shamima begum is a perfect example of why starmer is never winning the flag shagging vote The wider press narrative that I saw was of "keep bad terrorist out" vs. "she was groomed" (and the right wing response "boo hoo who cares") and the actual argument that "making British citizens stateless is more illegal than anything that she did" never even got a look in from any quarter, because lol if anyone in the press is really going to talk about state criminality in honest terms, the state's got all their lists. But framing it as an injustice around the idea that someone somewhere was getting away with something (apparently a core part of the British id) seemed to go over a lot better than any of them, the "so if the next Ronnie Biggs said 'I've converted to Islam and love ISIS' we'd make no effort to bring him in, is that what we are now?" tactic. And nobody anywhere in the wider press/political circles seemed to want to touch that. Comrade Fakename posted:In lighter news: Josef bugman posted:Is Naomi Wolf the one who accidentally misread a term in old documents and then created a book that was hilarious inaccurate because of it? OwlFancier posted:I am already mad all the time, I do not have the capacity to get madder.
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Feb 26, 2021 14:35
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Comrade Fakename posted:We are, right now, seeing Keir Starmer poo poo himself on the national stage. He has basically zero base of dedicated support. Corbyn could hang on as leader despite monstering in the press and very low approval ratings because he had a large base of support in the Labour party, and his leadership had a wider goal than "be elected". Starmer has none of that. Almost no one is a die-hard Starmerite. The people he was elected to placate - The Guardian - have turned on him. See, I agree, violent revolution is a ludicrous fantasy in 21st century Britain. But the relevant point is it's barely more fantastical than the Labour Party being a force for socialism in 21st century Britain. I don't know how someone can look at the last 5 years and conclude anything else. It can't even be taken over from the left because the infrastructure is so infested with careerist rats who have shrines to Tony Blair in their bedrooms. Again, comparing the SCG/union splinter to previous splinters is stupid because the last time there was a split that took as many elected officials & that much solid financial backing was what, the Peelites in the 19th century? And for the record, no, I don't think the biggest impact it could have is influencing Labour, I think that's the most immediate impact but in the medium to long-term I think it can replace the Labour Party which continues to waddle down the road of PASOKification, representing a very small section of the liberal/progressive middle class that it's been on for decades now bar the brief detour into "Corbynism". At some point your arguments against abandoning Labour just ring as hollow as the people arguing for the continuation of the labour movements collaboration with the Liberal Party, where the Liberals allowed some TUC backed candiates, rather than the founding of a party specifically for the labour movement.
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Feb 26, 2021 14:37
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Guavanaut posted:Are we talking more like going back 30 years like BTTF or 13 seconds like Galaxy Quest? Cognitive displacement along your own world line. But only as far back as when you get the nanomachines obviously.
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Feb 26, 2021 14:42
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we should be flinging our ugly, disgusting greasy bodies against the walls of the house of the closest tory only then can we impact upon real change
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Feb 26, 2021 14:45
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So if JessFlaps is 'the answer' for the right, why did she stand down from the leadership election last year? Has she a closet full of skeletal remains? Sadly, a fair few of my former female comrades think she walks on water because she is 'outspoken and assertive'. Never mind the actual content of what comes out of her gob, babs.
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Feb 26, 2021 14:46
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Ash Crimson posted:we should be flinging our ugly, disgusting greasy bodies against the walls of the house of the closest tory You first
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Feb 26, 2021 14:46
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this is a nugget of my high-brow, broadsheet headline style, incisive, biting observational wit for yous to enjoy EEEEEHEM (clearing phlegm/sputum/mucus from throat) Alec Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon at loggerheads?! I dare say there is something fishy behind all this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
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Feb 26, 2021 14:47
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Regarde Aduck posted:You first My friend, my body is already shattered against the wall of the local labour mp
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Feb 26, 2021 14:47
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No. The right just fundamentally don't understand the current situation. Cargo cult is completely right - they just have no analysis beyond "appeal to soft Tories like Blair?!?!!!?". People on both right and left need to understand how New Labour got to power. It was a combination of specific events; - Foot in 1983 winning back a load of industrial seats and votes but losing the election, postponing a slide that started in the 60s in the "Red Wall" and allowing New Labour to win a landslide after holding onto these seats but also winning over middle class voters - Kinnock spends the 80s bitterly infighting with the left and loses 2 elections but hands a party with a mostly cowed left to Blair - A combo of the Tories being lovely losers and Murdoch being pissed off about the ERM leads to the Sun and co being willing to back Blair in exchange for New Labour agreeing to not go for any legislation they don't like - The total defeat of the global left after the 80s and the fall of the USSR meant opposition to New Labour was very low and a lot of people just went along with it in the hope Blair wasnt going to be as bad as people feared (there was also a big element of "he doesn't really believe all the right wing stuff he says) - The great economy (fuelled by debt and dropping labour costs thanks to globalisation) meant that you could actually make arguments about making everyone richer Starmer is just trying to repeat history without understanding any of the above.
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Feb 26, 2021 14:47
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Rumda posted:I honestly cannot begin to justify paying money to a political party that hate me and my very existence for the vague hope of getting someone who might be more leftist and might have a chance of winning. This. Over and over again. This.
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Feb 26, 2021 14:47
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Ash Crimson posted:My friend, my body is already shattered against the wall of the local labour mp I don't know who my MP is other than they're the Tory who replaced Guto Bebb, one of the 6 Tories shitcanned for standing up to Brexit Since Keith i'm basically retired in terms of giving a gently caress about politics. I'm not without hope, i'm just saving the batteries until there's a point again.
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Feb 26, 2021 14:49
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:So if JessFlaps is 'the answer' for the right, why did she stand down from the leadership election last year? Has she a closet full of skeletal remains? She was obviously unprepared and just totally hosed all of her public appearances, basically because she's never faced hostile questioning before and had nothing but praise lavished on her by the press. It's quite possible she learns from her mistake and polishes up, but ultimately she suffers from he major problem that her primary appeal is to middle class reactionary white feminists, not working class people, because again all the people who like her have been huffing their own farts.
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Feb 26, 2021 14:51
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crispix posted:Alec Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon at loggerheads?! I dare say there is something fishy behind all this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  This is the kind of clearsighted Scotpol discussion we need on the podcast, someone please get this poster a mic.
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