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tsob posted:It's been pretty clear from early on that Wanda did it out of grief, and that while she was in control it was her pain that was guiding her actions. I'm not really sure what you think should be an appropriate punishment for someone lashing out at the world because they've been hurt repeatedly, really. Even if Wanda had gone in to this driven as much by anger as sorrow, had made a deal with the devil to set the hex up at the cost of everyone else in Westview's lives etc. I don't think a prison sentence or any other kind of punishment is an appropriate narrative or social cost to the character. If she'd been entirely complicit I could see having Vision turn away from her despite living as an appropriate cost, but therapy, help and training has always seemed like it's going to be the most reasonable outcome honestly, rather than any kind of punitive measure. Society might distrust her, depending how much is known or revealed after this (Strange or someone might magic some of the issues away for instance and Wanda was known before this for manipulating memory), the people of Westview almost certainly will if things aren't setup to stop them remembering it all, but I don't think most Avengers will; especially guys like Clint who had trouble dealing with grief himself. They had a whole movie about how the government doesn't trust the Avengers so one of them holding an entire city hostage wouldn't just be excused in the MCU universe.
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Feb 26, 2021 22:37
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I think if anyone expected this thing to end with Wanda as a full blown villain they were deluding themselves. She's obviously got guilt and she's wrestled with it pretty overtly. Pietro and Vision have both directly called it out to her. She's probably going to have to suffer more loss for this to end and a lot of people will be sympathetic to her pain and forgiving. Some probably won't because what she did was wrong. But presuming everyone on the outskirts of town didn't starve to death and she doesn't go psychotic in the last act I'm comfortable with the likelihood that she ends up on "house arrest" with Strange or something. Are you gonna stick the most powerful person on the planet in Super Max? There's a potential interesting story there Marvel's done a few times in comics (Sentry, Justice) but the Strange route makes sense but from what we know and how the MCU world is setup. SWORD clearly is unequipped to deal with her from a tactical or ethical perspective.
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Feb 26, 2021 22:40
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eke out posted:"And here you are, using it to make breakfast for dinner" was such a good line lol I wonder if they let Kathryn Hahn ham it up a bit. Her remark about young Pietro being too loud felt improvised and it killed me. She truly gets the best lines.
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Feb 26, 2021 22:41
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Wanda is going to be a big figure in Phase 4 going forward so I doubt that she with have a low key ending here. Right before everything went to poo poo in Infinity War, Vision is asking Wanda if she wants to run away with him and live a normal life. It's a pre planned speech so I'm guessing that he bought the deed before then. Vision is adorable as gently caress in that scene
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Feb 26, 2021 22:41
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Everyone posted:So, where and how hard should the grieving, depressed, desperately lonely super-woman be slapped after all of this? "slap on the wrist" was extremely bad phrasing on my part so my apologies there. however, i guess if i walked into a supermarket with a gun and forced everyone to play a part in my self-penned malcolm in the middle fan fiction, people probably wouldn't accept me using depression and loneliness as an excuse. i really just want the show to acknowledge that being hurt doesn't entitle you to hurt other people and that wanda's actions, no matter how rooted in trauma they might be, are not acceptable (especially on such an enormous scale). there's a difference between empathizing with someone and condoning their actions and the show has seemed to veer pretty heavily toward the latter. idk. i think part of my problem is i hoped the show would stay tonally the same as it was in the first three episodes. E: I do adore Kathryn Hahn and her hamming it up in every scene she's in. QuoProQuid fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Feb 26, 2021 |
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Feb 26, 2021 22:44
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live with fruit posted:They had a whole movie about how the government doesn't trust the Avengers so one of them holding an entire city hostage wouldn't just be excused in the MCU universe. It depends on if you're talking "what should the appropriate outcome be morally to satisfy viewers" or "what should it be legally to satisfy the masses in universe"? I was talking former, personally but if it's the latter, Wanda was the entire cause of the former government response too. Which obviously hasn't worked out that well. Which maybe would make them think twice about making her more miserable as a consequence of her actions, when misery is the cause.
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Feb 26, 2021 22:47
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QuoProQuid posted:"slap on the wrist" was extremely bad phrasing on my part so my apologies there. however, i guess if i walked into a supermarket with a gun and forced everyone to play a part in my self-penned malcolm in the middle fan fiction, people probably wouldn't be able to use depression and loneliness as an excuse. They have also shown multiple times that Wanda might not be 100% in control or aware. She has shown multiple times that she is having memory issues on what is going on. Not knowing how it got started for one. Seeming confused that the people were in pain. There is a chance that whatever she did / whatever happened to her at the house to create all this new reality also effected her. Her outburst caused this, but it appears it was not intended and may be effecting her ability to understand what happened. There could be a split in her personality of aware and unaware. She seems to slip in and out of knowing what is happening and not knowing. Not saying she isn't the cause, but they definitely have left a way out to say she isn't a bad person.
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Feb 26, 2021 22:49
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QuoProQuid posted:"slap on the wrist" was extremely bad phrasing on my part so my apologies there. however, i guess if i walked into a supermarket with a gun and forced everyone to play a part in my self-penned malcolm in the middle fan fiction, people probably wouldn't be able to use depression and loneliness as an excuse. Well the situation you described would be premeditated. Wanda clearly didn't know what she was doing when she started, although clearly she gradually came to terms with it. But based on everything we saw it feels like she only really came to full understand the nature and ethical problems of the hex as we did. And I think the show has gone to great lengths to show us Wanda's growing guilt about this in her confrontations with Vision and Pietro, as well as her whole thing this episode before Agatha reveals herself. So if Wanda actively chooses to sacrifice her husband and sons to free everyone I think that goes a long way. I don't think it would lead to everyone forgiving her. SWORD would still probably still see her as a threat, the people of Westview would be angry and scared, and anyone who finds out would be scared of what Wanda might do next. But short of locking her up or turning her into a villain, sending her on magic retreat/therapy/house arrest with Strange feels about the best solution.
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Feb 26, 2021 22:49
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tsob posted:It depends on if you're talking "what should the appropriate outcome be morally to satisfy viewers" or "what should it be legally to satisfy the masses in universe"? I was talking former, personally but if it's the latter, Wanda was the entire cause of the former government response too. Which obviously hasn't worked out that well. Which maybe would make them think twice about making her more miserable as a consequence of her actions, when misery is the cause. Civil War is also the MCU's way of commenting on the destruction that the Avengers caused. They're too self-aware to throw in stuff like Norm panicking in the couple of seconds he was unfrozen if they wanted the audience to just feel "Yeah but Wanda was really upset."
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Feb 26, 2021 22:55
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live with fruit posted:Civil War is also the MCU's way of commenting on the destruction that the Avengers caused. They're too self-aware to throw in stuff like Norm panicking in the couple of seconds he was unfrozen if they wanted the audience to just feel "Yeah but Wanda was really upset." The thing is, Wanda up to this point has specialized in manipulating memories so I can absolutely see Wanda and Strange together just erasing the fortnight or so that the hex was in effect from people's memories. So far as we know no-one died or anything terrible that can't be undone by either or both of them through magic. SWORD could probably be convinced not to push the matter by pointing out that they lied about Wanda's actions to justify being more aggressive in their response, and that they disregarded Vision's will.
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Feb 26, 2021 22:59
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tsob posted:The thing is, Wanda up to this point has specialized in manipulating memories so I can absolutely see Wanda and Strange together just erasing the fortnight or so that the hex was in effect from people's memories. So far as we know no-one died or anything terrible that can't be undone by either or both of them through magic. SWORD could probably be convinced not to push the matter by pointing out that they lied about Wanda's actions to justify being more aggressive in their response, and that they disregarded Vision's will. Covering up an Avenger holding a city hostage for weeks is not a good solution.
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Feb 26, 2021 23:02
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live with fruit posted:Covering up an Avenger holding a city hostage for weeks is not a good solution. Isn't it? I doubt the people there want to recall that time (though you could certainly ask on a per person basis), and SWORD have been complicit in it at times; especially given that Hayward seemed more concerned with activating his Vision double than in resolving the Hex matter (forcefully or otherwise). I can certainly see an argument that it should be noted on public record that it did happen, for even the people who don't recall it (beyond maybe some fuzzy memories with no emotional attachment so they know why 2 weeks of their lives are gone on a logical basis), but I do think covering those two weeks over is a better solution regardless than slapping Wanda in a prison. Which is probably not going to work out all that well unless they can find some way to inhibit her powers while she's in prison, since she demonstrably isn't operating well under that kind of misery, and that denies her the training she obviously needs.
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Feb 26, 2021 23:08
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tsob posted:Isn't it? I doubt the people there want to recall that time (though you could certainly ask on a per person basis), and SWORD have been complicit in it at times; especially given that Hayward seemed more concerned with activating his Vision double than in resolving the Hex matter (forcefully or otherwise). I can certainly see an argument that it should be noted on public record that it did happen, for even the people who don't recall it (beyond maybe some fuzzy memories with no emotional attachment so they know why 2 weeks of their lives are gone on a logical basis), but I do think covering those two weeks over is a better solution regardless than slapping Wanda in a prison. Which is probably not going to work out all that well unless they can find some way to inhibit her powers while she's in prison, since she demonstrably isn't operating well under that kind of misery, and that denies her the training she obviously needs. Even if it was a good solution in-universe, which it isn't, as a storytelling device it's got very heavy "They were rescued by let's say Moe" vibes.
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Feb 26, 2021 23:10
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Big Mean Jerk posted:I was going to engage with this post in a serious manner but uh just lmao look at this dumb loving toxic rear end take Still living up to your name. Ok, just we’re clear the only problem I have with Steven Universe is all the crying. All the LGTBQ themes I am copacetic with and support. I’m a grouch, not toxic. Jesus.
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Feb 26, 2021 23:53
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That was probably the most disappointing episode of the series so far. Seeing how the sausage gets made with step by step directions kind of took all the fun out of it. Also, by conventional TV wisdom - having your penultimate episode still setting up exposition doesn't seem to bode well. The Marvel way of shoving all the firework factory in the last 30 minutes?
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Feb 26, 2021 23:54
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If this show has taught me anything, it's that I clearly don't have the patience for non-binge television storytelling anymore. When the credits hit on today's episode, I actually got mad that I didn't see any scenes that expanded on last week's tag. I'm all in on wanting FOX Pietro to stick around and hoped that would have been explained this week. I'm clearly the kid on the island in the Yo,Magic! commercial: I want the damned treat of knowing how everything fits together and I'm slowly dying in the wait to get there.
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Feb 27, 2021 00:03
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All I know is we're going to get a "you're children aren't real" scene next week, and it's going to be fun for everyone involved.
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Feb 27, 2021 00:14
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Marsupial Ape posted:Still living up to your name. Ok, just we’re clear the only problem I have with Steven Universe is all the crying. All the LGTBQ themes I am copacetic with and support. I’m a grouch, not toxic. Jesus. It's ok to have feelings
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Feb 27, 2021 00:15
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Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if the fallout from this is Wanda no longer being welcome on MCU earth anymore and what do you know, m-m-m-multiverse. Although I'd laugh if the ending is some quantum leap thing where she has to get Peter Evans back to the FOXverse.
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Feb 27, 2021 00:24
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I guess my main question right now is Why did Director Haywood lie about Wanda stealing Vision's body? I mean, that was a deliberate lie directed at one individual that almost everyone else was in on. The post credits scene hints at a malign motive but it's still unclear why the lie e: the show has been very clear that what Wanda is doing to everyone in the hex is torture for the people under her spell. Yes there's good reasons to feel sympathy for her but no she absolutely has to face some consequences by the end of the story for what she's done. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Feb 27, 2021 |
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Feb 27, 2021 00:31
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Marsupial Ape posted:Still living up to your name. Ok, just we’re clear the only problem I have with Steven Universe is all the crying. All the LGTBQ themes I am copacetic with and support. I’m a grouch, not toxic. Jesus. Is Toxic Man a Marvel character? If so, top casting choice right here. Won't even have to CGI in the toxic masculinity powers!
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Feb 27, 2021 00:31
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Robot Hobo posted:I saw that the license plate on Wanda's car said "Excelsior" underneath the plate number, which I thought was another clever Stan Lee nod, since that was one of his catchphrases. Excelsior has been the NY state motto since 1778. NY updates their license plate design every 5 years or so, the current one features the motto. They amended the motto to include E Pluribus Unum in 2020. Odds are Stan Lee got Excelsior from the state seal, not the other way around.
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Feb 27, 2021 00:34
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Marsupial Ape posted:No that part. the part about superhumans sitting around crying about their feelings like it’s goddam Steven Universe This is not only literally one of the foundations of the Marvel Universe since 19 goddamn 61, but the reason why it thrived and became so popular. It’s the reason an upstart comics organization blew past DC and three of the most recognizable characters in all of fiction and never looked back. This is a bad take on so many levels
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Feb 27, 2021 00:37
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live with fruit posted:Covering up an Avenger holding a city hostage for weeks is not a good solution. There are no "good" solutions here. None. Let's run them down, shall we? 1) Kill Wanda. Maybe she'll be so depressed and in grief and pain that's she'll let them kill her. Otherwise, figure there's going to be a lot of death and destruction in trying to implement that particular "solution." Oh, and this is a fairly permanent solution, so if some other Thanos-level horrible threat shows up, Earth won't have Wanda to help fight it. 2) Imprison and/or exile Wanda. This episode shows that it's at least possible given that Agatha did it. Of course imprisoning Wanda assumes that she can't/won't unleash some kind of grief/rage effect that overrides whatever is imprisoning her. It also assumes that Agatha can be trust as Wanda's warden instead of just killing Wanda herself or using her own magic to try to enslave/control Wanda for her own ends. Or send Wanda "away" into the Multiverse. Though that just makes her someone else's problem. And it's quite possible that that Someone Else might end up bcoming the MCU's problem down the line. 3) Talk Wanda Down. Recognize that in this case Wanda suffered the punishment before committing her crimes. And that compassion takes precedence over "justice." Because once again Wanda will have to kill Vision. And she'll have to kill her own children And that's punishment enough. So whatever "society" thinks that Wanda deserves, what it and she needs her to get is some therapy, friendship and some kind of honest-to-God support system because otherwise it's likely she'll do this or something like it again. 4) Surrender to Wanda. Just write Westview off as a loss and let Wanda keep her delusional sitcom heaven.
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Feb 27, 2021 01:02
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Alchenar posted:I guess my main question right now is Why did Director Haywood lie about Wanda stealing Vision's body? I mean, that was a deliberate lie directed at one individual that almost everyone else was in on. The post credits scene hints at a malign motive but it's still unclear why the lie It's actually unclear if the crew that came with him was in on it, considering almost all of them are in the Hex now, some of them might be old guard that he feared would side with Monica out of loyalty to Maria or the Avengers. And Darcy and the other nerds brought in were civilians, and Woo's a federal agent for another agency, so openly saying "Hey, we're vivisecting one of the people who saved the whole world like 3 times and the lady in that town didn't like that much" might have gotten a call to the press or the White House. Also, the people who think he's justified even slightly... if Captain America had died and this dude tried to reanimate the corpse because the super-soldier serum is 'government property', no-one would defend it. That's basically what he's doing seeing as everything the movies and the show gives us depicts Vision as a sapient being.
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Feb 27, 2021 01:04
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Everyone posted:. And she'll have to kill her own children And that's punishment enough. Uhhh... why?
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Feb 27, 2021 01:05
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Everyone posted:So, where and how hard should the grieving, depressed, desperately lonely super-woman be slapped after all of this? Interestingly, that seems to be what's going on in the opening scene with Agatha. While we don't know the details, although Agatha is guilty of wrongdoing, they're basically backing her into a corner in the name of punishment instead of trying to give her the help she needs. Much like Wanda, not only is attacking her the morally wrong answer, but it's also the logically wrong answer because their firepower has nothing on her and all it does is make things much, much worse.
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Feb 27, 2021 01:08
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I was chatting with a friend and she believes that Vision wasn't made by Wanda, what we were seeing was her pulling him or conjuring him from another dimension. That still wouldn't explain why he was falling apart when he left the Hex.
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Feb 27, 2021 01:11
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I liked it when the coven went all BZRRRRP with their cool mint lazers on the bad lady, who uno reversed them into grape BZZZRP lazers and she's all "I'm good mama!" and her moms all "No, actually" and she gets uno reversed too but I guess she thought she wouldn't because of her Molten Core crown??? Anyway everyone gets owned and its a super fun scene I loved it.
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Feb 27, 2021 01:13
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sure okay posted:I liked it when the coven went all BZRRRRP with their cool mint lazers on the bad lady, who uno reversed them into grape BZZZRP lazers and she's all "I'm good mama!" and her moms all "No, actually" and she gets uno reversed too but I guess she thought she wouldn't because of her Molten Core crown??? Anyway everyone gets owned and its a super fun scene I loved it. Or you could just actually post your criticism without being passive aggressive. Desperado Bones posted:I was chatting with a friend and she believes that Vision wasn't made by Wanda, what we were seeing was her pulling him or conjuring him from another dimension. That still wouldn't explain why he was falling apart when he left the Hex. I've been meh on the 'Infinity gem colours matter' thing, but I suspect this time it might. Vision's creation was all yellow glowys and she said she couldn't 'feel' him at the corpse, so I think whatever in the Mind Gem gave Vision consciousness, his 'soul' if you'd like, is what made this one.
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Feb 27, 2021 01:17
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Fun anachronism from this week's episode: Wanda was born in 89 and her parents died when she was 10, so that flashback would presumably happen in 99, before those editions of Bewitched S1 (June 2005) and Malcolm S1 (2002) were made. I figure it's just a production goof and not actual foreshadowing to things, fwiw 
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Feb 27, 2021 01:21
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Do we know why Tony Stark never attempted to fix Vision during the blip years? Or if he did and failed? I assume Heyward had him wheeled out of storage to see if Wanda could/would do something about him, not that they've been hammering and sawing at him those entire five years.
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Feb 27, 2021 01:26
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Gaz-L posted:I've been meh on the 'Infinity gem colours matter' thing, but I suspect this time it might. Vision's creation was all yellow glowys and she said she couldn't 'feel' him at the corpse, so I think whatever in the Mind Gem gave Vision consciousness, his 'soul' if you'd like, is what made this one. Yeah, I'm more in to the fan theory that /slight spoilers for today's episode ahead/ that was his soul. Like you said, it's all glowy yellow and that's definitely a sign that it's the mind stone. I'm believing that the stones weren't really destroyed. I mean, I see it as Thanos destroyed the containers: the stones. But not what they contained: all that wacky energy that can change reality or control a person's mind, etc,etc. So it's all probably just floating around, looking for a new container and that might explain why Dr. Strange MIGHT get the time stone back.
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Feb 27, 2021 01:26
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I want Agatha to be Phase 4's Loki. She's so much fun.
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Feb 27, 2021 01:32
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Gaz-L posted:It's actually unclear if the crew that came with him was in on it, considering almost all of them are in the Hex now, some of them might be old guard that he feared would side with Monica out of loyalty to Maria or the Avengers. And Darcy and the other nerds brought in were civilians, and Woo's a federal agent for another agency, so openly saying "Hey, we're vivisecting one of the people who saved the whole world like 3 times and the lady in that town didn't like that much" might have gotten a call to the press or the White House. Also, the people who think he's justified even slightly... if Captain America had died and this dude tried to reanimate the corpse because the super-soldier serum is 'government property', no-one would defend it. That's basically what he's doing seeing as everything the movies and the show gives us depicts Vision as a sapient being. It is kind of screwy that even if everyone on site now besides Heyward wasn't at SWORD headquarters that day apparently no one who was there would gossip about one of the most powerful people in the world paying a visit then leaving mostly without incident. I don't know why he'd lie for the benefit of three people when he just has them detained later anyway either.
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Feb 27, 2021 01:35
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ApeHawk posted:I want Agatha to be Phase 4's Loki. She's so much fun.
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Feb 27, 2021 01:42
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tsob posted:Isn't it? I doubt the people there want to recall that time (though you could certainly ask on a per person basis), and SWORD have been complicit in it at times; especially given that Hayward seemed more concerned with activating his Vision double than in resolving the Hex matter (forcefully or otherwise). I can certainly see an argument that it should be noted on public record that it did happen, for even the people who don't recall it (beyond maybe some fuzzy memories with no emotional attachment so they know why 2 weeks of their lives are gone on a logical basis), but I do think covering those two weeks over is a better solution regardless than slapping Wanda in a prison. Which is probably not going to work out all that well unless they can find some way to inhibit her powers while she's in prison, since she demonstrably isn't operating well under that kind of misery, and that denies her the training she obviously needs. It's not a great message to say "all these people's pain and suffering is meaningless compared to the super human's pain and suffering and we're just going to pretend it didn't happen."
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Feb 27, 2021 01:43
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i'm betting that wanda's kids survive along with agatha. vision will meld with the spectre vision, and end up leaving wanda/taking some space to process what she's done, or maybe he'll offer up himself to attone for what Wanda did and she can go off with strange. the reason why i think agatha survives is that billy is clearly a witch - the blue glow the witches had at the beginning looks a lot like the blue glow billy had when he used his powers - and i don't think strange would take on wanda AND billy at the same time, because he seems to be of the grumbly kind who takes wanda on as a student because she has such powerful, reality breaking magic but he doesn't know how to handle a second student. agatha would also tie in to his marvel comics superhero name as 'wiccan' since he's a witch, was trained by a witch - it all ties in together! he also said that he liked her but that was before she was magically choking him and his brother to threaten his mom. i think agatha is acting against wanda because she thinks she's dangerous and uncontrollable. remember how she was demanding how wanda did it and then bashed her around when she said she didn't know? her rant about how magic works does sound a little like her being jealous, but i'm also reading it as agatha explaining that magic is something that takes decades of training to even begin to manipulate smaller objects or beings, and wanda pops up being able to do it on the large scale. so she wants to know how wanda did it, because wanda seemingly appeared out of nowhere and performed something that would be impossible without a lot of training or preparation beforehand. it's one reason why she's so callous; it's not that she cares about wanda personally (although she may on a lower level) but she cares about what wanda's intentions are because mindcontrolling an entire city and warping reality is not a very benevolent gesture. and so the reveal at the end that confirms wanda didn't do this intentionally and it's all just her powers reacting to her grief because she really has no control over her true power, is where agatha goes "you're too dangerous, you don't even know what you are" this is where agatha's flashback will come into play, like how she pleaded with her mother that she can be good, wanda will plead with agatha in a similar way who will relent and give her the chance that her own mother denied her. anyways everyone in westview teams up to go fight hayward who turns out to have been replaced by a evil skrull or is mephisto or something, and against the ghost vision who it turns out hayward can't control.
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Feb 27, 2021 01:49
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Hobo Clown posted:Do we know why Tony Stark never attempted to fix Vision during the blip years? Or if he did and failed? Vision was such a perfect storm of circumstances that if I were Tony I, personally, would not even think about dinking with it you can only accidentally make Ultrons so many times before it looks suspicious and making GBS threads out one post-snap and pre-blip would have been a real dick move
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Feb 27, 2021 01:50
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Something about the scene with the Mind Stone scene confirms is that they do have some level of intelligence and agency. It detached itself from the staff, ejected its casing when Wanda approced, and it did something, something it chose to do. Wanda, as in the comics, is the Nexus Being, even if they are calling it The Scarlet Witch in the MCU, and the Mind Stone knew that and strengthened her connection to whatever powers Chaos Magic. But yea, if they're going full on Multiverse in the next phase of the MCU, Wanda is going to be a major part of it. I still feel like a Strange cameo at the end is really likely. ApeHawk posted:I want Agatha to be Phase 4's Loki. She's so much fun. Omg they'd play off each other sooooo well. And then they kiss, in this picture i drew.
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Feb 27, 2021 01:50
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