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That gundam picture but its Zeke and the point being "war makes monsters out of all of us" being ignored because the guy is focusing on the armband instead of all the rocks he's throwing.
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Mar 2, 2021 21:10
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I'll never get tired of when stuff is popular the absolute flood of morons who have to shout at the top of their lungs about how, actually, they don't like thing, pleebs, and furthermore that means it's actually satan. Has any Content Creator ever managed to say "It's well done it's just not for me," or "It's all right" or even "It's not that great but who gives a poo poo" or does that take away time you could be using to tell me to use squarespace.
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Mar 2, 2021 21:13
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Pootybutt posted:Ask the writer w me, I'd love to know. I sure hope it isn't what it looked like for awhile there, ie. "Japan should go nuclear." Well see, if your reading of the story can't account for all elements of the story I'm not sure I'd consider it a valid reading. I don't really know very much about the author's intent but this reading was the most convincing one I've seen asserting that AoT is actually fascist, so I was wondering if it could account for the nuke imagery compellingly And i guess the answer is "not really, but it's possible the author is not just fascist but super extra turbo fascist and future story elements might help fit the nuke imagery in." Which is kind of a depressing read on a story I've always read as very powerfully antifascist, but I suppose until the story is complete there's no telling which way it might turn.
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Mar 2, 2021 21:14
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Maybe I missed it, but what kind of government is Marley? A dictatorship? Parliamentary monarchy? Actual democracy?
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Mar 2, 2021 21:15
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Marley appears to be a military dictatorship that is also manipulated from the shadows by those guys that Eren ate a few episodes ago. Anyway all this drama about AoT and real world political comparisons makes me wonder why no one was freaking out about Fullmetal Alchemist and Ishval annexation and the leader who was literally called the Fuhrer whose country also had a military dictatorship ruled over from the shadows by a golden haired guy. It even sort of had blood libel what with the creation of the philosopher's stones. I guess it was missing some of the bloodline stuff.
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Mar 2, 2021 21:18
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Thundercracker posted:Maybe I missed it, but what kind of government is Marley? A dictatorship? Parliamentary monarchy? Actual democracy? 
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Mar 2, 2021 21:20
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Marley has a civilian government that Willy talked about. His plot focused around creating a crisis that would simultaneously get rid of the military brass and convince the civilian leadership to promote Magath to the position of supreme commander.
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Mar 2, 2021 21:31
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Ccs posted:Marley appears to be a military dictatorship that is also manipulated from the shadows by those guys that Eren ate a few episodes ago. FMA also draws comparisons between Japanese internment camps in the US and Nazi ones (Fuhrer signs order mirroring the one Roosevelt did, but for a middle eastern coded people). FMA actually handles this issue worse because there's this dumb scene where an Ishvalan soldier at Briggs brings up his animosity on account of the whole genocide thing, and Ed is like "well, an Ishvalan man was mean to me once. I judge on a personal level. I don't see race." And I never got the sense that Brotherhood was interested in critiquing Ed on this point. FMA 03 actually did confront Ed's subliminal racism more directly, but I digress. The thing is, using poo poo as allegory, where each thing needs to stand in for one specific other thing, and all of the relationships between the signifiers and what they represent need to be preserved - that is a really bad way to go about reading pretty much anything. All metaphors are messy. And thank God for it, because literature would suck poo poo otherwise.
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Mar 2, 2021 21:40
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ninjewtsu posted:Well see, if your reading of the story can't account for all elements of the story I'm not sure I'd consider it a valid reading. I don't really know very much about the author's intent but this reading was the most convincing one I've seen asserting that AoT is actually fascist, so I was wondering if it could account for the nuke imagery compellingly Let's back up, because you're talking about Dan Olsen's pov, not mine. Reading Paradis/Japan never neccesarily made me think AoT is fascist, just weird and perhaps really right-wing/pro-nationalist but trying to have its cake and eat it under the surface, but anybody looking at that element of the story at this incomplete point and finding the author suspect cuz of it, well, it's not NOT there.
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Mar 2, 2021 21:41
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It would be pretty hosed up if the series was intended as a direct analogy for Japanese/Korean relations. But what exactly is the evidence that this was intended? Hell, even if unintended what elements of the series even push you in this direction other than some very superficial similarities between Paradis and Japan? It seems like a staggeringly backwards read to me. If we were meant to come to this reading why isn't Paradis Japan-coded? Why is there a very obviously Japanese coded country which is not presented in a positive light? Why does Marley have absolutely nothing in common with Korea? Why does the Marleyan treatment of the Eldians have obvious visual parallels to the Nazi (allies of imperial Japan) treatment of Jews if those groups are supposed to represent Koreans and the Japanese respectively? Who exactly are the Eldians outside of the wall meant to represent, and why does the story focus heavily on the conflict with them rather than the Marleyans (Koreans?) that it's supposed to be vilifying? Ultimately, if you're prepared to insist that the good guys represent the Nazis and the bad guys represent the Allies you can claim any piece of media is pro-fascist. To make that kind of reading hold you need actual evidence to support it, and you certainly can't just ignore the vast swathes of the series that do not support your read.
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Mar 2, 2021 21:42
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Pootybutt posted:Simply disagreeing isn't what anyone in here is doing in response to any reading that isn't their own lol. That last sentence comes from a place of "yall need to get over yourselves lol" Treating any reading of a narrative that treats any lil part of it like it isn't just the best like it "loving sucks" is a much older and more direct harm to media literacy than anything youtube ever did lol. The thing is these kinds of readings have been around for a while and have been used to put down people who like the show/manga, so a lot of people are pretty sick of arguing against them. People aren't really going to give you the benefit of the doubt when you include "get over yourselves lol" in your supposedly legitimate criticism based on your (flawed imo) reading of the series as an allegory for Japanese/Korean relations.
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Mar 2, 2021 22:00
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Where are the "fascism is cool and good" parts of the show, I missed those on my rewatch
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Mar 2, 2021 22:03
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Saagonsa posted:The thing is these kinds of readings have been around for a while and have been used to put down people who like the show/manga, so a lot of people are pretty sick of arguing against them. That's a poor excuse imo. It's exactly cuz the discourse is crusty that ppl should be over the turbodefensiveness by now. What is the reason
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Mar 2, 2021 22:07
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Pootybutt posted:Simply disagreeing isn't what anyone in here is doing in response to any reading that isn't their own lol. That last sentence comes from a place of "yall need to get over yourselves lol" Treating any reading of a narrative that treats any lil part of it like it isn't just the best like it "loving sucks" is a much older and more direct harm to media literacy than anything youtube ever did lol. Ok, then what is the goal of the reading you're presenting/arguing for then?
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Mar 2, 2021 22:11
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Alan_Shore posted:Where are the "fascism is cool and good" parts of the show, I missed those on my rewatch Did you not see their stylish outfits?
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Mar 2, 2021 22:11
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Pootybutt posted:That's a poor excuse imo. It's exactly cuz the discourse is crusty that ppl should be over the turbodefensiveness by now. What is the reason It's because people keep insisting things that are just not true about the story, generally. See: "The titans are fantasy jews who in the story need to be eradicated" and whatever else was being passed around post-basement. So people generally aren't going to give you much slack for weird shots at people like you did.
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Mar 2, 2021 22:13
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Arakawa has gone on record saying the the racial politics in FMA are based on her experiences in Hokkaido and the relations between the Japanese and the Ainu, both historically and in modern times.
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Mar 2, 2021 22:25
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On second thought, the actual funny part of that video is when the guy says that the Titan designs are anti-Semitic because one of them has.... a big nose?
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Mar 2, 2021 22:44
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I'm still trying to figure out what's up with Zeke. Did he care about Eldia when he invaded 4 years ago and murdered a ton of Eldians? When he turned in his own parents? He better have a drat good explanation for all this. He was written as an overconfident dumbass 4 years ago. The same as Galliard.
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Mar 2, 2021 22:46
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I assume he had basically the same plan, but wanted to steal the Founding Titan to do it. He may have thought Paradis would be impossible to negotiate with.
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Mar 2, 2021 22:49
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dipwood posted:I'm still trying to figure out what's up with Zeke. Did he care about Eldia when he invaded 4 years ago and murdered a ton of Eldians? When he turned in his own parents? He better have a drat good explanation for all this. He was written as an overconfident dumbass 4 years ago. The same as Galliard. Zeke has the biggest brain in AoT.
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Mar 2, 2021 22:50
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Alan_Shore posted:Who on earth could watch/read this and think it's fascist? Absolutely unbelievable People in the old threads a couple years ago. I don't know if those still post now but it was a factor in why I discontinued for so long.
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Mar 2, 2021 22:55
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Mar 2, 2021 23:01
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Beefstew posted:FMA also draws comparisons between Japanese internment camps in the US and Nazi ones (Fuhrer signs order mirroring the one Roosevelt did, but for a middle eastern coded people). FMA was absolutely a product of its time and couldn't be made today without getting lamblasted on Twitter. In example in a completely different direction, it starts out pro-science sure, but ends up very science critical by the end. The genocidal bad guy is motivated by a desire to learn as much as possible at the expense of everything else, and the protagonist literally gives up his superpower to perform science at the end because his humanity is more important to him. Strawberry Pyramid fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Mar 2, 2021 |
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Mar 2, 2021 23:20
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Strawberry Pyramid posted:FMA was absolutely a product of its time and couldn't be made today without getting lamblasted on Twitter. In example in a completely different direction, it starts out pro-science sure, but ends up very science critical by the end. The genocidal bad guy is motivated by a desire to learn as much as possible at the expense of everything else, and the protagonist literally gives up his superpower to perform science at the end because his humanity is more important to him. Not really, FMA is pretty much Gnosticism 101. The true Wisdom is accumulated through struggling with your weakness and personal experience, not just knowing a lot of stuff. Father's sin wasn't that he wanted to learn as much as possible, it was that he tried to outsource the whole "struggling" part to others. The Truth even pointed out that he ultimately learned nothing. As for Ed, giving up alchemy was pretty much his last test. He started as someone who viewed alchemy as the solution to every possible problem, therefore his personal road to enlightenment was about stopping to use it as a crutch. Note that none of the other people who got through the Gate had to give up alchemy and Roy even got to regain his sight eventually.
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Mar 2, 2021 23:34
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Conspiratiorist posted:Zeke has the biggest brain in AoT. Technically, the guidebooks say he's tied with Hange. And we've all seen how much Hange has screwed up lately.
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Mar 2, 2021 23:49
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Irony Be My Shield posted:It would be pretty hosed up if the series was intended as a direct analogy for Japanese/Korean relations. But what exactly is the evidence that this was intended? Hell, even if unintended what elements of the series even push you in this direction other than some very superficial similarities between Paradis and Japan? It seems like a staggeringly backwards read to me. No reading has to be a direct analogy, intentional or unintentional, or completely 1:1 with plot point A thru Z. That's what makes analyzing AoT so fun and frustrating, it makes analogies and parallels to real world politics all over the place. Can you explain what is "very superficial" or "surface-level" about "isolated island nation that willingly gave up its military force years ago, surrounded by hostile neighbors who dog their every lil attempt to assert themselves on the world stage due to earlier imperialistic atrocities said island's pacifistic govm is devoted to denying to its people(also now there's a small but vocal right-wing nationalist contingent that desires to reclaim earlier imperial glory and proliferate a doomsday weapon to defend themselves((EDIT: which they can do now bc the heroes just overthrew the law forcing them to never exercise force against the outside world)))"? Bc it isn't "coded"? Cuz they ain't walkin around in kimonos? quote:Why does the Marleyan treatment of the Eldians have obvious visual parallels to the Nazi (allies of imperial Japan) treatment of Jews if those groups are supposed to represent Koreans and the Japanese respectively? Yeah, WHY IS THAT. I'm still waitin on that one. Saagonsa posted:It's because people keep insisting things that are just not true about the story, generally. Get over it. The thing you love is big and mainstream, you're gonna see lots of takes on it. Pootybutt fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Mar 3, 2021 |
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Mar 2, 2021 23:50
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Can you blame her? Zeke has more information, more resources, and knows what the bigger picture is. You can be a genius but you're still going to lose a game of chess if you don't know all the pieces and how they can move.
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Mar 2, 2021 23:53
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Pootybutt posted:No reading has to be a direct analogy, intentional or unintentional, or completely 1:1 with plot point A thru Z. That's what makes analyzing AoT so fun and frustrating, it makes analogies and parallels to real world politics all over the place. Can you explain what is "very superficial" or "surface-level" about "isolated island nation that willingly gave up its military force years ago, surrounded by hostile neighbors who dog their every lil attempt to assert themselves on the world stage due to earlier imperialistic atrocities said island's pacifistic govm is devoted to denying to its people(also now there's a small but vocal right-wing nationalist contingent that desires to reclaim earlier imperial glory and proliferate a doomsday weapon to defend themselves)"? Bc it isn't "coded"? Cuz they ain't walkin around in kimonos? 1. Paradis didn't give up its military force. They didn't even give up their world-breaking superweapons. 2. Their goal isn't to "assert themselves on the world stage", it's not getting exterminated. 3. They didn't even know that the rest of the world exists and only managed to figure it out after a terrorist attack nearly destroyed them. 4. Self-isolating from the entire world and becoming a large open-air museum did happen in Japanese history once. Except it was during the Edo period and Tokugawas didn't isolate their country because they loved peace so much. Your analysis is bad, because you decided to focus on specific tropes that remind you of Japan while conveniently ignoring the rest that don't. Paradis' situation is nowhere near real-life, post WW2 Japan.
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Mar 3, 2021 00:03
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Pootybutt posted:Can you explain what is "very superficial" or "surface-level" about "isolated island nation that willingly gave up its military force years ago, surrounded by hostile neighbors who dog their every lil attempt to assert themselves on the world stage due to earlier imperialistic atrocities said island's pacifistic govm is devoted to denying to its people(also now there's a small but vocal right-wing nationalist contingent that desires to reclaim earlier imperial glory and proliferate a doomsday weapon to defend themselves)"? Bc it isn't "coded"? Cuz they ain't walkin around in kimonos? For starters the Eldians didn't willingly give up anything, nor was Eldia an island nation - the Paradisians are the descendants of a social experiment implemented by a ruling king with magic powers.
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Mar 3, 2021 00:07
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The Japanese didn't reallllly "willingly" give up their military. I mean come on son
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Mar 3, 2021 00:14
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You'd think a post ww2 japan allegory would have some very, very heavy direct analogues to the nukes that were dropped on them. I guess that would be when shiganshina was originally kicked down? But this happens very long after their "willing" disarmament of their military, and in story more or less serves as the impetus for rearmament. Which is, uh, the opposite of how I'd expect a historical allegory to play japan getting nuked. I'm not sure what the paradis=japan reading is really making of the titans or how they're initially viewed as unknowable monsters or what's meaningful about that understanding being entirely wrong and actually, the titans are just mutated brethren of the paradisians. The more I think about it the less it seems like what the story is aiming for so much as what you'd get if you went in with a conclusion already in mind. There's just major aspects of the show that don't really fit and apparently the answer to why don't they fit is "good question, you should ask the author"
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Mar 3, 2021 00:22
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SpartanIvy posted:Can you blame her? Zeke has more information, more resources, and knows what the bigger picture is. You can be a genius but you're still going to lose a game of chess if you don't know all the pieces and how they can move. I'm not blaming Hange. I'm noting how, given how many mistakes we've seen from the Survey Corps, Zeke's plans not all going 100 percent as planned and leading to unforeseen consequences is pretty much to be expected. Zeke's just more likely to pretend he meant to do that instead of going hard on self-doubt.
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Mar 3, 2021 00:24
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ninjewtsu posted:You'd think a post ww2 japan allegory would have some very, very heavy direct analogues to the nukes that were dropped on them. I guess that would be when shiganshina was originally kicked down? But this happens very long after their "willing" disarmament of their military, and in story more or less serves as the impetus for rearmament. Which is, uh, the opposite of how I'd expect a historical allegory to play japan getting nuked. It doesn't fit because it's not meant to be Japan. It's normal that an author who grew up in a specific country will heavily use at least some elements of their country's history and culture, as they are familiar to them. This doesn't mean that fictional countries are meant to represent their home country in any way. Sapkowski made a lot of nods to Polish history in his books; it doesn't mean that Temeria in Witcher is the expy of Poland.
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Mar 3, 2021 00:31
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Pootybutt posted:Get over it. The thing you love is big and mainstream, you're gonna see lots of takes on it. True. What's also true is that some takes are totally poo poo.
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Mar 3, 2021 00:44
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Pootybutt posted:Yeah, WHY IS THAT. I'm still waitin on that one.
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Mar 3, 2021 00:51
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Again, to me this is the equivalent of insisting that the good guys represent the Nazis in some random film. If someone points out the many ways in which the good guys do not resemble the Nazis then well, that's just because the author really loved the Nazis!!
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Mar 3, 2021 00:54
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Again, to me this is the equivalent of insisting that the good guys represent the Nazis in some random film. If someone points out the many ways in which the good guys do not resemble the Nazis then well, that's just because the author really loved the Nazis!! B-b-b-but have you thought that maybe the Rebel Alliance in Star Wars is meant to represent Werwolf, neo-nazis and this Japanese soldier that spent 40 years on some random island before surrendering?
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Mar 3, 2021 00:58
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Pootybutt posted:Get over it. The thing you love is big and mainstream, you're gonna see lots of takes on it. I'm sure you can get over a few people being dismissive of you, in that case.
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Mar 3, 2021 01:03
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Pootybutt posted:
Your posts in this thread suck. People have explained to you how your takes fall apart because they don't take the whole work into effect and don't follow along with the work's themes, and instead of accepting the criticism, you keep on insisting everyone else is wrong and that they should just accept people posting harmful, lovely takes that spread misinformation without getting defensive because it's a mainstream piece of media and lots of people will have lovely opinions. No, misinformation should be curtailed, and it is understandable for people to be tired of having to defend and explain why the media they are enjoying isn't some sort of pro-fascist propaganda when the themes pretty clearly are not in alignment with that, from people who only give the series s cursory glance and don't do proper research beforehand.
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Mar 3, 2021 01:19
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