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Lmao https://twitter.com/DaRatbag/status/1368314530095263744?s=19
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Mar 7, 2021 12:02
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live with fruit posted:Who the victims are matters. Wolverine kills paramilitary types, as do the Avengers for that matter. This situation is more like the Hulk destroying that city in AoU or even Tony taking responsibility for what happened to Sokovia. Do all those paramilitary types deserve to be killed? Ditto the criminals Frank Castle kills by the hundreds? And that leaves aside people rooting for Doom, Loki and (really?) Apocalypse. One of the cooler issues from Grant Morrison's The Invisibles opens mid-gunfight with King Mob (one of the heroes) gunning down a bunch of mooks. And then the issue flashs back to take us through the life of one of those mooks, revealing to be a complex, flawed human being, making the best choices he could to take care of those he loved before his life was summarily ended. Once of the cooler bits from WV is when the mob of townspeople starts to gather around Wanda, you expect them to attack her, but instead they gather to beg her to please stop torturing them. It's that affirmation that there are not unimportant people.
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Mar 7, 2021 12:15
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Everyone posted:Do all those paramilitary types deserve to be killed? Ditto the criminals Frank Castle kills by the hundreds? And that leaves aside people rooting for Doom, Loki and (really?) Apocalypse. One of the cooler issues from Grant Morrison's The Invisibles opens mid-gunfight with King Mob (one of the heroes) gunning down a bunch of mooks. And then the issue flashs back to take us through the life of one of those mooks, revealing to be a complex, flawed human being, making the best choices he could to take care of those he loved before his life was summarily ended. No but with movies like this you have to accept a level of cannon fodder. Plus it's not like Wolverine is busting into a barracks while they sleep. It's usually in a fight. Compare that to a poor city in New Jersey where the citizens have been imprisoned and emotionally tortured. They're not the same.
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Mar 7, 2021 12:19
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Well having finished Wandavision all I can say is it didn't change much from the formula from the Netflix Marvel shows in that it has no idea how to end the story they've written and just lets things flicker out. It was an anticlimax but directed through the lens of portrayed as being a giant climax. Just all around odd and feels like they didn't know what to do with the threads they'd created so just ignored them JJ Abrams style while screaming "IT'S ABOUT THE CHARACTERS".
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Mar 7, 2021 13:13
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Lid posted:Well having finished Wandavision all I can say is it didn't change much from the formula from the Netflix Marvel shows in that it has no idea how to end the story they've written and just lets things flicker out. It was an anticlimax but directed through the lens of portrayed as being a giant climax. Just all around odd and feels like they didn't know what to do with the threads they'd created so just ignored them JJ Abrams style while screaming "IT'S ABOUT THE CHARACTERS". I'm pretty sure most of those threads are intentionally left dangling ready for Strange 2, Cap Marvel 2 and the like. What were the big dangles? Wanda's fate (and that of the twins) is clearly Doctor Strange territory. Monica is a Captain Marvel tie in. And maybe Secret War. Darcy and Woo aren't left dangling. They'll probably show up in more stuff going forwards. They make for good side characters. Cataract Vision is off figuring himself out. He'll be back in time for the next teamup movie. Unless he features in Strange. Agatha was basically "sent to the Raft". We know she'll show up again when we need a cool magic badguy. Kinda like Loki after Avengers. The Aerospace engineer was a bit of a red herring, although it might have been an Easter egg / hint that the F4 will be SWORD agents and were who Monica reached out to. Who says they didn't design it and send it with other more front line allies? Any other "dangling threads" were speculative narratives we spun up ourselves based on Dottie being annex part of the Scooby Gang or from hoping this was where Mutants would join the MCU.
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Mar 7, 2021 14:02
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Honestly just give me the Agatha show. Just following her through history stealing magic and making trouble.
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Mar 7, 2021 15:08
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Aside from Agatha...when are me getting these mockumentaries?  Come on Disney+, you got the power.  I wouldn't mind a whole hour of Stellan Skarsgård talking about Marvel cosmic time traveling theories.
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Mar 7, 2021 16:49
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There's something about the wild fan speculation that reminds me of Abrams and the mystery box style of plot-teasing. I think the problem is that the audience has no way of differentiating between a Chekhov's gun and a red herring in the moment, and particularly when it comes to serialized media, at some point the weight of unanswered questions or dangling threads becomes too cumbersome for the show to handle tidily. For a show like Lost, that became very apparent over time, but I'm kind of disappointed to see the same in a nine-episode show like Wandavision. I really do think this could have been plotted a lot tighter. Hayward drove into Westview and his final act was to shoot at children? What's that about? Are we supposed to assume his goal was to power up the white Vision and let him loose on Wanda, and that's it? What was the purpose of tracking Westview-Vision's location inside the hex? Was Agatha's sole throughline that she wanted power, and therefore she wanted Wanda's power... so she's just some sort of witch vampire? Jimmy Woo's mention of a subject in witness protection was just a complete coincidence to get him into the narrative, and then his purpose after six episodes is just to call in the feds at the end?
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Mar 7, 2021 16:58
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Vindicator posted:There's something about the wild fan speculation that reminds me of Abrams and the mystery box style of plot-teasing. I think the problem is that the audience has no way of differentiating between a Chekhov's gun and a red herring in the moment, and particularly when it comes to serialized media, at some point the weight of unanswered questions or dangling threads becomes too cumbersome for the show to handle tidily. For a show like Lost, that became very apparent over time, but I'm kind of disappointed to see the same in a nine-episode show like Wandavision. It's exactly as lazy as you think. Emma Caulfield did an interview where she said her casting was explicitly designed to trick people into thinking there might be something to her character and she hopes people don't egg her house. They just throw a whole bunch of plotlines in that they never plan to follow up on purely to try to keep people guessing about what's gonna happen. It works.
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Mar 7, 2021 17:09
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XboxPants posted:It's exactly as lazy as you think. Emma Caulfield did an interview where she said her casting was explicitly designed to trick people into thinking there might be something to her character and she hopes people don't egg her house. The old X-Files trick, they called this the Chris Carter Effect back in the day. It doesn't help in long-running shows where writers change, plans change, and storylines get dropped, forgotten about, or hastily wrapped up to make new for the next big ratings stunt.
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Mar 7, 2021 17:52
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I think there's a fundamental difference between 1) Dottie, a character who was absolutely established as a normal citizen of the town -- with no reason to suspect otherwise besides the fact that she's a popular genre actress from twenty years ago -- and then ended up being a normal citizen of the town. and 2) Ralph, a character who was explicitly teased in the story to be an important character -- played by an actor who played that character before -- and then ended up being a normal citizen of the town.
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Mar 7, 2021 18:04
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Yeah I didn't pick up on any clues at all that Dottie was important.
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Mar 7, 2021 18:06
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Robot Hobo posted:I loved that twist. They set up a character to make us Comic Book geeks in the audience think they knew what was going to happen, and then smashed those expectations in the best way. Really? I loved the Mandarin twist too, but Fake Pietro is the only thing that I'm a little salty about -- the fact that they actually cast the X-Men actor is a huge tease, and even feels a little mean-spirited considering they know there's a lot of people hoping and speculating that the X-Men might be incorporated into the MCU. Adus posted:i don't think they were intentionally trolling so much as just wanting a fun cameo. but they were dumb to think that making him literally a mind-controlled nobody wouldn't be a massive disappointment to anyone who likes peters' quicksilver (which is most people who saw those x-men movies), especially with the fox acquisition and their flat out casting electro and doc ock from the other spider-man movies in the next MCU spider-man. this basically yeah
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Mar 7, 2021 18:09
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The finale was garbage, but tbh the show basically peaked at the Quicksilver reveal and then rapidly deteriorated from there. And no I don't think it was some clever "bait and switch" I think they legitimately didn't know how to end the show so they slapped some gaudy special effects on a couple pew pew hero fights and shipped it. Made sure to toss in a couple references too so it maybe felt like less of a waste of time. Can't wait to be disappointed by the next one that I invariably watch.
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Mar 7, 2021 18:22
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Vindicator posted:There's something about the wild fan speculation that reminds me of Abrams and the mystery box style of plot-teasing. I think the problem is that the audience has no way of differentiating between a Chekhov's gun and a red herring in the moment, and particularly when it comes to serialized media, at some point the weight of unanswered questions or dangling threads becomes too cumbersome for the show to handle tidily. For a show like Lost, that became very apparent over time, but I'm kind of disappointed to see the same in a nine-episode show like Wandavision. Vision signed the sokovia accords to be granted personhood and human rights. He specified that in the event of his death, he should never be revived. Doing so would break international treaty due to how the accords worked. Heyward says in his first scene with Monica that 'times have changed since her mom died and SWORD needs the biggest guns' Heyward faked the taking of the body to make people think she had gone crazy and revived Vision (thus her being the one breaking the accords). He unleashed the White Vision to destroy the WandaVision, so he could (as he told Woo) tell the world the white vision was her failed attempt to bring Vision back. This is why he was tracking WandaVision, presumably. He entered the Hex because Woo said the FBI would be there inside the hour, and so heyward had to clean up all evidence of his misdeeds (killing wanda, the kids, possibly Monica or Darcy). This all ties back to his first scene with Monica, where its implied that Monica was the first choice for directorship but she got snapped. Now she is back and he needs a big new fancy weapon and a big win to stay in his now threatened position.
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Mar 7, 2021 18:22
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Kat Dennings says that she and multiple other actors for Wandavision will be in "several" upcoming MCU projects, but didn't say which ones or which other actors.
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Mar 7, 2021 18:30
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Vindicator posted:There's something about the wild fan speculation that reminds me of Abrams and the mystery box style of plot-teasing. I think the problem is that the audience has no way of differentiating between a Chekhov's gun and a red herring in the moment, and particularly when it comes to serialized media, at some point the weight of unanswered questions or dangling threads becomes too cumbersome for the show to handle tidily. For a show like Lost, that became very apparent over time, but I'm kind of disappointed to see the same in a nine-episode show like Wandavision. Good writing explains red herrings though...
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Mar 7, 2021 18:31
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:This is a parody article right because there is no way this is a real opinion held by a real person. It's really nasty and unpleasant though. The whole bit is making fun of nerds for engaging in speculation and theorycrafting about a show that would regularly pause the action to have hints of weird sinister stuff, name-dropped a bunch of other comic plots, and stunt-casted a guy from a different movie series. It's just some prick who wants to feel superior to nerds for not enjoying the nerd show correctly.
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Mar 7, 2021 18:44
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Strom Cuzewon posted:It's really nasty and unpleasant though. The whole bit is making fun of nerds for engaging in speculation and theorycrafting about a show that would regularly pause the action to have hints of weird sinister stuff, name-dropped a bunch of other comic plots, and stunt-casted a guy from a different movie series. It's just some prick who wants to feel superior to nerds for not enjoying the nerd show correctly. Reminds me of the 'journalists' complaining that the fans weren't grateful enough for Mass Effect 3.
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Mar 7, 2021 18:50
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Everyone posted:I generally agree with all of this, however, either Wanda does this or she just straight up executes Agatha right there. That's a false dichotomy precisely because this is a work of fiction. There are an infinite number of solutions beyond those two, but the writers worked furiously to winnow things down to kill Agatha or condemn her to an intended eternity of mind rape. Also, it's an intentional act, explicitly. This isn't an ironic backfire of Agatha's intended effects, or a misapplication of Wanda. We don't have the 'hero' do this accidentally, then vow to learn how to undo this. It isn't even something like so long as someone carries on the Wandavision effects she has a chance to learn how to save her kids. It is an act of spite, done not because sparing her was kinder but because Agatha might be used by her later. Everyone posted:In terms of her capabilities, those are the options Wanda has there. Because letting Agatha go to be a constant antagonist while Wanda is trying to learn magic so she won't brainwash entire towns just isn't a viable choice. Meanwhile, figure Agatha will have it a little easier than the townsfolk. She won't be subjected to Wanda's nightmares (which were likely broadcast through the Hex). She doesn't have children or a significant other to miss that we know of. Wanda doing this is kind of cruel, but either Agatha suffers this, which is at least potentially temporary or she gets death which kind of isn't. The townsfolk also lived entirely in a sitcom world intended to be an idealized life. Agatha is left in a real world small town. An economically depressed small town. An economically depressed small town that has been pretty well thrashed by superhero punchemups. An economically depressed partially destroyed small town that is full of people who watched her fire purple lasers and cackle evilly. Left to her own devices she doesn't survive the week. The reason we view the Salem Witch Trials as horrifying and abhorrent is because we know witches don't exist and therefore everyone who died there or in other witch hunts was innocent. Making it suddenly "well actually witches do exist" would end up killing a whole lot of people, and retroactively makes a lot of institutional murder justifiable. Now, of course whatever remains of SWORD under Monica or the FBI will squirrel Agatha away instantly. But that's narratively seperate from Wanda. She fully intends to keep Agatha as a pet reference book trapped in her own mind. Which if Wanda is going villainous, even temporarily, is fine. And given how well they did the Vision v iVision debate I have some level of hope that they intended it. But there are a whole lotta people out there who nodded their head and went 'ayup that's what she deservess' and the framing of it is really mealy mouthed at the present time. Cuz if she isn't villainous, that's some hosed up poo poo. That's a media empire saying you can enslave people so long as you're a good guy. You can torture innocent people. Knowingly*. So long as you're Better Than Them. And that gets real problematic real fast. *I still think a huge narrative fuckup was her exiting the Hex to confront SWORD. It showed intent and awareness of her actions.
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Mar 7, 2021 18:51
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Saw a poster earlier in the thread say this ultimately ended like a netflix marvel show and I have to agree. It’s kind of shocking but just like those shows, this ended with the main character getting the costume and giving up on the main conceit of the show just to have an action showcase that was ultimately underwhelming.
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Mar 7, 2021 18:59
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Yeah any of the fighting that took place was maybe the most disappointing part. If you're gonna give up on a decent story at least choreograph the fights to be more entertaining than "different colored lasers." I felt like season 2 of Cobra Kai had a better ending fight and that was literally just a bunch of high schoolers beating the poo poo out of each other for 20 minutes.
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Mar 7, 2021 19:03
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That one I chalk up to the fact that these productions are super loving expensive. There's a reason the end credits is almost as long as the show itself guys.
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Mar 7, 2021 19:06
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Vindicator posted:There's something about the wild fan speculation that reminds me of Abrams and the mystery box style of plot-teasing. I think the problem is that the audience has no way of differentiating between a Chekhov's gun and a red herring in the moment, and particularly when it comes to serialized media, at some point the weight of unanswered questions or dangling threads becomes too cumbersome for the show to handle tidily. For a show like Lost, that became very apparent over time, but I'm kind of disappointed to see the same in a nine-episode show like Wandavision. Hayward's final act was to shoot at battlefield combatants who had just neutralized most of his men. Hayward wanted a controllable sentient weapon (Vision). He sent White Vision after Wanda to kill her and Red Vision so that there would be no other stories competing with his story of "Wanda Maximoff lost her poo poo, resurrected Vision and enslaved a whole town full of innocent people. Fortunately Vision's programming re-asserted itself and allowed him to terminate Maximoff and free the town. Granted that resurrecting Vision was against the Sokovian Accords, but the person who did that, Wanda Maximoff is thankfully dead. Killing Vision again seems unnecessary. What's done is done and Vision can clearly be a highly effectively asset to protect humanity - under SWORD guidance and supervision." I don't know if that would have been Hayward's speech word-for-word, but based on his actions, it seems like a reasonable guess. Hayward was likely tracking "Wanda's" Vision in the Hex because he was hoping an opening would present itself to capture him and use him to empower/activate White Vision. Agatha wanted Wanda's power, but we really don't know why. It could be as simple as Agatha wanting to take the power of the Scarlet Witch in order to, among other things, prevent the Scarlet Witch from destroying the world as she was prophesied to do. Jimmy's purpose was to be the Good Government Guy as a foil to Hayward's Bad Government Guy, most likely.
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Mar 7, 2021 19:23
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  Seriously wtf guys?
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Mar 7, 2021 19:38
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Vindicator posted:There's something about the wild fan speculation that reminds me of Abrams and the mystery box style of plot-teasing. I think the problem is that the audience has no way of differentiating between a Chekhov's gun and a red herring in the moment, and particularly when it comes to serialized media, at some point the weight of unanswered questions or dangling threads becomes too cumbersome for the show to handle tidily. For a show like Lost, that became very apparent over time, but I'm kind of disappointed to see the same in a nine-episode show like Wandavision. Part of the problem with all the red herrings is what exactly they were supposed to be keeping the audience from seeing? It was pretty clear that Agnes was more than she was letting on and the reveal that Wanda is the reincarnation of the Scarlet Witch would have been impossible to predict so the misdirects don't seem to have served any actual purpose. And Heyward is a bottom five villain, if not just the single worst villain in the MCU. Like, at least whoever Walton Goggins played in Ant-Man and the Wasp was played by Walton Goggins. Heyward was a generic villain played by an actor who didn't really bring anything to the table. So they deliberately cast Emma Caufield and Evan Peters to mislead the audience and then forgot about the secondary antagonist.
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Mar 7, 2021 19:39
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Everyone is going to have so much egg on their face when Nick Fury calls up Ralph Bohner about the Avengers Initiative.
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Mar 7, 2021 20:07
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Honestly I would like to think it's a sign that they recognize how much fans loved him as Quicksilver and just wanted to acknowledge that, with the added caveat that when they decide to actually bring in mutants to the MCU they go ahead and cast him as Quicksilver and then they can just have a jokey reference with him and Wanda and call it a day.
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Mar 7, 2021 20:12
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Doctor Nutt posted:with the added caveat that when they decide to actually bring in mutants to the MCU they go ahead and cast him as Quicksilver and then they can just have a jokey reference with him and Wanda and call it a day. Ultimately Marvel/Disney figured out how to do a fun troll that got people talking and super-engaged with the show and then squared it really well with the story they were telling. There's no need to complicate it further.
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Mar 7, 2021 20:22
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I think comparing Wanda with the Hulk is pretty fair. They're both victims of their powers as well, and those powers hurt a lot of people, but there's no easy solution to the problem, certainly not to place yourself in the hands of people who have absolutely not shown any prospect of treating this power with any responsibility.mind the walrus posted:Ultimately Marvel/Disney figured out how to do a fun troll that got people talking and super-engaged with the show and then squared it really well with the story they were telling. 
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Mar 7, 2021 20:47
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Electric Phantasm posted:Everyone is going to have so much egg on their face when Nick Fury calls up Ralph Bohner about the Avengers Initiative. Ralph Bohner shows in Falcon and the Winter Soldier's last after-credits scene. Tables are thrown. Twitter explodes. This thread sets in flames.
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Mar 7, 2021 21:55
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BrianWilly posted:I think comparing Wanda with the Hulk is pretty fair. They're both victims of their powers as well, and those powers hurt a lot of people, but there's no easy solution to the problem, certainly not to place yourself in the hands of people who have absolutely not shown any prospect of treating this power with any responsibility. I don't think I ever had moment with Hulk as calculated and chilling as when Vision tells Wanda she can't control him like the others and she just stares at him and tilts her head and says "Can't I?"
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Mar 7, 2021 22:44
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Its Rinaldo posted:I don't think I ever had moment with Hulk as calculated and chilling as when Vision tells Wanda she can't control him like the others and she just stares at him and tilts her head and says "Can't I?" Exactly, the "Wanda didn't mean to hurt anyone" only works if you ignore everything but the last episode. She showed several times throughout the series when she threatened people and banished those that oppose her. Do you think those SWORD dudes she turned into clowns that she thought she was not hurting them?
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Mar 7, 2021 22:58
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Its Rinaldo posted:I don't think I ever had moment with Hulk as calculated and chilling as when Vision tells Wanda she can't control him like the others and she just stares at him and tilts her head and says "Can't I?" I mean, if they ever adapt Immortal Hulk, you could see it.
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Mar 7, 2021 23:04
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Desperado Bones posted:Ralph Bohner shows in Falcon and the Winter Soldier's last after-credits scene. Good
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Mar 7, 2021 23:22
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Wanda was introduced as a villain.
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Mar 7, 2021 23:26
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I don't really think slapping the label 'villain' on characters every time they gently caress up or do something horrible is the way to go.
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Mar 7, 2021 23:27
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What happened to the bee suit Sword guy?
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Mar 7, 2021 23:32
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Its Rinaldo posted:What happened to the bee suit Sword guy? stev posted:I don't really think slapping the label 'villain' on characters every time they gently caress up or do something horrible is the way to go.
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Mar 7, 2021 23:36
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Yeah, don't call someone a villain just because they enslaved and tortured thousands of men, women, and children
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Mar 7, 2021 23:40
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