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I started rewatching the ghost in the shell series after like ten years, and I found myself asking: "why isn't the major wearing clothes again?" and "why does this shot of two government officials talking have half the frame taken up by the major's camel toe?"
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Mar 13, 2021 16:49
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somepartsareme posted:Some people get really annoyed when you bring up Attack on Titan's blatant fascist sympathizing poo poo Because it really doesn’t AOT couldn’t be more anti fascist. It honestly is so unsubtle it hits you over the head with it and can get insanely tedious. From what I’ve seen people that say this are just getting their info from out of context panels that thrive on online outrage. Though like I also said this take is literally years old and died a long time ago. It’s the equivalent of saying American History X is about how cool Neo Nazis are CharlestheHammer has a new favorite as of 17:09 on Mar 13, 2021 |
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Mar 13, 2021 17:05
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AoT does seem fairly anti-fascist in its leanings, but it does that thing a lot of Japanese stuff does where it uses a lot of fascist and vaguely Nazi-esque imagery because they think it looks cool. Not to say Japan is unaware of Nazi atrocities, but they seem a bit more inclined sometimes to see western fascist iconography as "that cool style the Germans were into back in the 40s." Anime also seems to occasionally flirt with the "Jewish people are a cabal of secret world-controlling blood sorcerers" thing, largely I suspect because Japan has like, a cartoonishly miniscule Jewish population so they don't have the cultural context that makes the cool fantasy worldbuilding in a vacuum really really offensive. Doesn't excuse it, obviously, but still.
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Mar 13, 2021 17:20
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Asterite34 posted:AoT does seem fairly anti-fascist in its leanings, but it does that thing a lot of Japanese stuff does where it uses a lot of fascist and vaguely Nazi-esque imagery because they think it looks cool. Not to say Japan is unaware of Nazi atrocities, but they seem a bit more inclined sometimes to see western fascist iconography as "that cool style the Germans were into back in the 40s." That touches on the one thing I that I actually ended up catching about the whole AoT thing. Apparently the people who are related to the first Titans (and can in turn potentially turn into Titans) are very explicitly coded as 1930s Jews, complete with being forced into ghettoes and made to wear star-shaped insignia distinguishing them. And, well, "these people are an intrinsically different monstrous race who may pass as regular people but could easily destroy your society from within" is a super bad look in that context. 
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Mar 13, 2021 18:37
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Japan saved Jews from the Holocaust because they wanted to get the ancient secret society of blood mages on their side
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Mar 13, 2021 18:44
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Perestroika posted:That touches on the one thing I that I actually ended up catching about the whole AoT thing. Apparently the people who are related to the first Titans (and can in turn potentially turn into Titans) are very explicitly coded as 1930s Jews, complete with being forced into ghettoes and made to wear star-shaped insignia distinguishing them. And, well, "these people are an intrinsically different monstrous race who may pass as regular people but could easily destroy your society from within" is a super bad look in that context. but no that and everything else is all excused because the manga said persecuting them is still bad or something
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Mar 13, 2021 18:45
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The Japanese made a point of securing Jews during the war because they wanted to use their influence and business acumen. They were like, "If these people are so powerful and influential, why not use them?"
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Mar 13, 2021 19:02
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No no I said Jewpanese
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Mar 13, 2021 19:06
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Perestroika posted:That touches on the one thing I that I actually ended up catching about the whole AoT thing. Apparently the people who are related to the first Titans (and can in turn potentially turn into Titans) are very explicitly coded as 1930s Jews, complete with being forced into ghettoes and made to wear star-shaped insignia distinguishing them. And, well, "these people are an intrinsically different monstrous race who may pass as regular people but could easily destroy your society from within" is a super bad look in that context. It's essentially X-Men in that regard, with the "what if minorities actually were as potentially dangerous as nutjob bigots say they are," with all the accompanying pitfalls of that metaphor being kinda  but everyone's mutant power is "turn into a Meat Mecha when you inject them with the special sauce"Eren Jeager is basically Magneto at this point.
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Mar 13, 2021 19:09
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CharlestheHammer posted:Because it really doesn’t AOT couldn’t be more anti fascist. It honestly is so unsubtle it hits you over the head with it and can get insanely tedious. From what I’ve seen people that say this are just getting their info from out of context panels that thrive on online outrage. Though like I also said this take is literally years old and died a long time ago. Isn't one (positively portrait) character based on an Imperial Japanese Army General?
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Mar 13, 2021 19:14
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On that day humanity recieved a grim reminder; we live in fear of hot takes. The comic's final issue is due next month, and I for one fear the oncoming rumbling of a million million thinkpieces. Join us next year for Erenuto, the wacky adventures of Eren's wisecracking son or something.
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Mar 13, 2021 19:29
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The Japanese comic book about how genocide is bad is bad, because it was made in Japan (a country that likes fascism) and therefore promotes fascism, because it was made in a country that likes fascism. The American comic book about how genocide is bad is good, because it was made in America (a country that likes freedom) and therefore promotes freedom, because it was made in a country that likes freedom. This makes sense, because I am Progressive American Man Who Likes Freedom (But Not Foreigners).
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Mar 13, 2021 20:31
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I've seen this conversation happen a dozen times and it's always just a bunch of people saying "the comic says this" and "no, the comic does not say that" (with a healthy dose of "Hey, I heard the comic does [deeply offensive thing]") so can we just get someone who's read the comic to give a serious effortpost about what's going on?
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Mar 13, 2021 20:36
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Waci posted:The Japanese comic book about how genocide is bad is bad, because it was made in Japan (a country that likes fascism) and therefore promotes fascism, because it was made in a country that likes fascism. American comics and especially comic book movies are largely fascist-sympathizing war propaganda too, hth
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Mar 13, 2021 21:00
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Perestroika posted:That touches on the one thing I that I actually ended up catching about the whole AoT thing. Apparently the people who are related to the first Titans (and can in turn potentially turn into Titans) are very explicitly coded as 1930s Jews, complete with being forced into ghettoes and made to wear star-shaped insignia distinguishing them. And, well, "these people are an intrinsically different monstrous race who may pass as regular people but could easily destroy your society from within" is a super bad look in that context. It’s not so much that they’re explicitly coded as Jews as it is that people claim they’re explicitly coded as Jews so they don’t actually have to engage the text. It’s lazy discourse.
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Mar 13, 2021 21:22
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christmas boots posted:It’s not so much that they’re explicitly coded as Jews as it is that people claim they’re explicitly coded as Jews so they don’t actually have to engage the text. It’s lazy discourse. they're forced to wear white armbands with stars on them to identify them. you're correct that it's not "explicit" as in there is no narrator explicitly connecting it to the real life treatment of jewish people
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Mar 13, 2021 21:26
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Mar 13, 2021 21:28
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The series is very clear about how war and nationalism has explicitly made the world a shittier place and brutalized everyone to the point where it ushers in the apocalypse so it’s just really weird to see people claiming the underlying themes are pro-fascist
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Mar 13, 2021 21:32
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I didn't realize bringing up Bridget Jones would eventually morph into AOT discourse, that's pretty funny. It also feels vaguely familiar. Has the series come up before in this thread or am I remembering discourse from a different one?
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Mar 13, 2021 21:43
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Blood Nightmaster posted:I didn't realize bringing up Bridget Jones would eventually morph into AOT discourse, that's pretty funny. It also feels vaguely familiar. Has the series come up before in this thread or am I remembering discourse from a different one? Same, the exact same arguments too!
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Mar 13, 2021 21:52
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How could the favorite show of ISIS fighters be fascist?
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Mar 13, 2021 21:59
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Precambrian posted:I've seen this conversation happen a dozen times and it's always just a bunch of people saying "the comic says this" and "no, the comic does not say that" (with a healthy dose of "Hey, I heard the comic does [deeply offensive thing]") so can we just get someone who's read the comic to give a serious effortpost about what's going on? MariusLecter posted:In the anime Attack on Titan, they outright textually state that atrocities committed by a world conquering empire should be forgotten and never mentioned again. Nothing about the show suggests that ANY of the atrocities committed, whether by heroes or villains, past or present, are morally justifiable or should be forgotten.
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Mar 13, 2021 22:04
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I'm not sure I can parse this without Rainbow Dash.
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Mar 13, 2021 22:20
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Attack on Titan also has a lesbian character get married and have kids because it's in the best interest of the nation.
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Mar 13, 2021 23:00
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VinylonUnderground posted:I'm not sure I can parse this without Rainbow Dash.  I'm bad at photoshop
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Mar 13, 2021 23:05
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just a minor thing, but didnt american school used to offer German as a language but then WW1 and 2 happened and obvious german stuff took a hit / deletion?
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Mar 13, 2021 23:24
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MariusLecter posted:Attack on Titan also has a lesbian character get married and have kids because it's in the best interest of the nation.
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Mar 14, 2021 00:05
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I’m mad about anime
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Mar 14, 2021 00:17
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PhazonLink posted:just a minor thing, but didnt american school used to offer German as a language but then WW1 and 2 happened and obvious german stuff took a hit / deletion? Up until WWI it was the second most common language in America and lots of schools and churches used it as a first language, but during the war there were States where it became illegal to teach or even speak it in public.
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Mar 14, 2021 00:19
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bees x1000 posted:You're tilting at windmills. The scenario in question is portrayed as an awful thing and doesn't actually happen. She gets pregnant precisely to _avoid_ becoming a military tool. And the text never says she's lesbian; bisexual people exist. Yeah they do and I'd love that representation but that's not what happens either. What does happen is she is shown to love another woman and then the bury the gays trope happens to that love interest which is also cringe. MariusLecter has a new favorite as of 00:25 on Mar 14, 2021 |
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Mar 14, 2021 00:22
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MariusLecter posted:Attack on Titan also has a lesbian character get married and have kids because it's in the best interest of the nation. Oh so you're doing the thing where something not good in the story happens and you pretend that the story thinks that it's good, despite being called out in the actual text
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Mar 14, 2021 01:15
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People get really upset over the show that became a million times less interesting when the main character turned into a titan.
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Mar 14, 2021 01:29
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Precambrian posted:I've seen this conversation happen a dozen times and it's always just a bunch of people saying "the comic says this" and "no, the comic does not say that" (with a healthy dose of "Hey, I heard the comic does [deeply offensive thing]") so can we just get someone who's read the comic to give a serious effortpost about what's going on? If you strip away the supernatural/sci-fi biomecha elements AoT is at its core a war story that looks to explore the reasons why people fight wars, with emphasis on looking through various different perspectives, and a great deal of attention paid to building a logically-consistent fictional world with its own history. The work doesn't really allegorize any specific real world conflict, but does borrow from historical imagery to ground itself - architecture, clothing, technology, art - and while its depiction might strike folks as insensitive given the relative historical proximity and cultural weight of the source, it's in a similar spirit that the much-touted ghettos and armbands were introduced. In then context of the story you've got a fascist dictatorship that's made it part of its national mythos to consider a certain ethnicity subhuman (with a good dose of sensationalized historical grievances to justify themselves), but prevailing societal values aren't as far gone as to simply call for overt extermination so, as many real-world nations have done historically, they instead go on to institutionalize a class/apartheid system to oppress and exploit this group. With armbands, because they don't have an easy trait like Tangentially while still on the subject of historical references, the general that the author used as inspiration for one of his characters, Akiyama Yoshifuru, is a lionized figure in Japanese media noted for having refused a promotion to Field Marshal to instead retire and become a small-town school teacher. It's this aspect of his life that appears to be what drew Isayama to use Akiyama as a reference point, rather than some glorification of Japan's imperialistic past. On the topic of having the oppressed minority being actual supernatural monsters, it should be noted that the Eldians' only superpower is to make for exceptionally useful slaves. The ability to turn them into undying nightmares is always in the hands of oppressors, through forced injections, chemical weapons, and the power of the royal dynasty. Normal folk wield no special powers, and those few that get to summon biomecha are likewise controlled tools of oppression, being historically the chosen heirs of noble families and later trained soldiers of an imperialistic nation. But if the work is neither fascist nor anti-semitic (at the very least not intentionally, ymmv there), what's its actual message? Well, as part of exploring perspectives the author deliberately avoids passing diegetic value judgments on the characters themselves see note**, but as a whole the work can be taken as critiquing the cycles of violence, depicting how history is an inexcusable succession of the powerful exploiting the powerless and, as the story reaches its conclusion, that continuing on this path and holding onto hatred can only lead to ever greater tragedies. A poster above compared the protagonist to Magneto and it's not too far off - the world's hatred and violence turns a victim into an extremist, backed into a corner by social and historical circumstances within his understanding but beyond his control. ** During an interview Isayama cited as one inspiration a work that made him contemplate on the nature of a serial killer, whose actions while unforgivable were difficult to judge in the context of his life and background. Paraphrasing: "Who was to blame for things turning out like that? Is it just coincidence I wasn't born a murderer myself? The victims' feelings are important to take into consideration for something like this, but I'm looking to illustrate root causes rather than evaluating who is right and wrong."
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Mar 14, 2021 01:39
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Groovelord Neato posted:Reminds me of Terminator Salvation where they make the Holocaust parallels way too obvious. In the original movie Reese was the equivalent of a sonderkommando before John Connor liberated his camp but Salvation laid it on thick when the people are captured and being transported to a facility. 
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Mar 14, 2021 01:42
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Captain Monkey posted:I’m mad about anime Look at this pleb. I’m mad about manga, like a gentleman should be
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Mar 14, 2021 01:54
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Douche Wolf 89 posted:People get really upset over the show that became a million times less interesting when the main character turned into a titan. How did the turn of the main character becoming a kaiju make the series LESS interesting? I can think of plenty of ways you could screw up that formula, I'm just wondering specifically what way they did.
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Mar 14, 2021 02:00
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The United States posted:Skynet rounding up humans into work and extermination camps, complete with barcode tattoos, was always a thing in the terminator franchise, it's just Salvation was the first movie set in the future thus making it a focus of the film and bringing the parallels into stark relief. Why does Skynet need to put people into camps, I thought they just killed whatever humans they found on sight?
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Mar 14, 2021 02:07
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I'm down a nostalgia fueled rabbit hole, this has probably been posted in the thread but https://youtu.be/rkvDLuLtjNA
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Mar 14, 2021 02:11
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maybe the nukes and nuclear winter wrent good enough.
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Mar 14, 2021 02:12
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Kaiju Cage Match posted:Why does Skynet need to put people into camps, I thought they just killed whatever humans they found on sight? Just 'cause it decided to nuke SOME people at some point doesn't mean it gave up on its mission, that's so unfair
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Mar 14, 2021 02:17
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