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I got to the very end of the game, and then (fairly big end spoilers) Tristan killed Jaethal and I was so annoyed I stopped playing. Didn't use bag of tricks that time but reading this thread it seems like getting through the game is much easier now? I'm considering replaying and KILLING THAT rear end in a top hat when I have the chance.
GoodluckJonathan fucked around with this message at 14:14 on Mar 12, 2021 |
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Mar 12, 2021 14:11
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The ending dungeon is perfectly calculated to make you angry, no matter who you are or how you've been playing up to this point.
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Mar 12, 2021 14:53
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GoodluckJonathan posted:I got to the very end of the game, and then (fairly big end spoilers) Tristan killed Jaethal and I was so annoyed I stopped playing. Didn't use bag of tricks that time but reading this thread it seems like getting through the game is much easier now? I'm considering replaying and KILLING THAT rear end in a top hat when I have the chance. But Tristian is actually useful, unlike Jaethal?  Seriously though, it's possible to avoid that outcome. The secret is to bring each of them to one another's final personal quest.
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Mar 12, 2021 14:57
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Eox posted:The ending dungeon is perfectly calculated to make you angry, no matter who you are or how you've been playing up to this point. It’s part of the charm
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Mar 12, 2021 15:06
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Captain Oblivious posted:The secret is to bring each of them to one another's final personal quest. You don't necessarily even need to do that. If you do Jaethel's final quest in a manner that ends in Urgathoa exploding her for defying her, she'll be resurrected by Pharasma for the House at the End of Time, and provided that Tristan's personal quest was followed to conclusion they'll be both be A-OK. At least for me it was like that. Warden fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Mar 12, 2021 |
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Mar 12, 2021 15:31
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GoodluckJonathan posted:I got to the very end of the game, and then (fairly big end spoilers) Tristan killed Jaethal and I was so annoyed I stopped playing. Didn't use bag of tricks that time but reading this thread it seems like getting through the game is much easier now? I'm considering replaying and KILLING THAT rear end in a top hat when I have the chance. Same but lindsy’s actual unavoidable death when I was running a 5 man with XP sharing turned off. I’m dicking around with the DLC dungeon for now (also needs modification, it’s way more fun at half XP gained) but if I go back to the main game it’s just PC+4 mercs.
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Mar 12, 2021 15:35
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Naramyth posted:lindsy’s actual unavoidable death when I was running a 5 man with XP sharing turned off. what's up with that btw? literally everything else bad is avoidable, heck even the canon ending is preventable with the new super secret ending
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Mar 12, 2021 15:42
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Goa Tse-tung posted:what's up with that btw? literally everything else bad is avoidable, heck even the canon ending is preventable with the new super secret ending Karmic punishment for stealing from the treasury for the printing press. Also, said ending was in the game from the very beginning.
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Mar 12, 2021 15:47
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Goa Tse-tung posted:what's up with that btw? literally everything else bad is avoidable, heck even the canon ending is preventable with the new super secret ending IDK. They were integral to the party and continuing on with someone else who was under leveled and not setup to absorb all the archery equipment was a bridge too far for me. Like I went out of my way to give the NPCs a chance, dealing with their weird builds and making builds I wouldn’t normally play with while making a PC based on filling a gap in the lineup. Then ‘whoops you just lose one no matter what 80 hours in hope you didn’t build around them’ was not cool man
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Mar 12, 2021 15:49
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I was happy that I didn't ever have to hear from the Chris Avellone mouthpiece again, but then the rest of the deaths started
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Mar 12, 2021 15:53
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Eox posted:I was happy that I didn't ever have to hear from the Chris Avellone mouthpiece again, but then the rest of the deaths started You do not mean Nok-Nok, do you? Cause the little bugger is awesome.
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Mar 12, 2021 15:59
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JamMasterJim posted:You do not mean Nok-Nok, do you? Cause the little bugger is awesome. I got there on release week so I started somewhere other than where you're supposed to, every Wild Hunt member dropped their touch attack scimitars and I first encountered Valerie (Who I think always survives) and Harrim, who I didn't just dismiss because he filled a kingdom role and I had a feeling dismissing people would break something permanently
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Mar 12, 2021 16:02
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pentyne posted:It's the next chapter. ty!
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Mar 12, 2021 17:44
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Captain Oblivious posted:But Tristian is actually useful, unlike Jaethal? She was my best dps  . Yeah looking at a guide after the fact I realized I could avoid that outcome, but I'd have to replay hours worth of content to fix it which I just couldn't bring myself to do at that time. Felt like it came out of nowhere TBH, especially since I had done Tristian's quest and I thought we were cool.
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Mar 12, 2021 18:22
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IIRC I got stuck on a track that would have had the same thing happen so I just kicked Tristian out of the party/kingdom and I think that overwrites his good guest end. He still showed up at the end for some reason but Jaethal murked him. Ironically between the two of them she'd been a great and loyal asset to my kingdom and he helped kill hundreds/thousands of my subjects so it was an easy choice between them for me. Also Harrim's a better Cleric anyway. Nephthys fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Mar 12, 2021 |
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Mar 12, 2021 19:38
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Nephthys posted:IIRC I got stuck on a track that would have had the same thing happen so I just kicked Tristian out of the party/kingdom and I think that overwrites his good guest end. I mean, they really do different things. Tristan gets pretty early and quick access to the channel healing talents that you kind of have to go out of your way for with Harrim, but you really have to keep him in the back line and out of danger in a way that you don't with Harrim. I tend to build Tristan as a hard nuker and load him down with fireballs and the like and roll him as a wizard what can heal. Harrim gets a hard support buffer / debuffer kit, dropping fears and getting swole before he goes in swinging WRT Jaethal, I had kind of a hard time finding a niche for her. She's super handy to have around because of her immunity to negative energy and draining, but she's also kind of a liability in several other ways (glass jaw, weapon itemization don't really support scythes, fits a similar niche as Regongar, hard to heal both in and outside of combat). I think her character is interesting and well written, and I'm not someone who normally goes for D&D evil character writing. Yall are making me want to fire this up and give it another go. Been thinking about a druid chaotic neutral path and loading the party up with as many animal companions as I can fit.
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Mar 12, 2021 20:04
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In my DLC game I have been using a Druid as one of my front liners and it kind of rules. Since you get to keep shield AC I didn’t even bother making her a monk, although that would have saved me a few feats on crane style. But yeah bear force one vomiting out flame strikes and snowballs between storm domain procs and general melee smashing has been good
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Mar 12, 2021 20:35
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Naramyth posted:In my DLC game I have been using a Druid as one of my front liners and it kind of rules. Since you get to keep shield AC I didn’t even bother making her a monk, although that would have saved me a few feats on crane style. Although it's late in acquiring forms and has other issues, Feyspeaker becoming a Leopard with Mirror Image is still hilarious to me.
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Mar 12, 2021 20:42
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pentyne posted:Also, and I've seen this occur maybe twice so far but other comments seem like it'll happen again, the game forces you to play solo in specific parts and for any non-melee tank that'll make combat encounters extremely difficult. I feel like more than anything they were just trying to make a game to challenge the people who are going to minmax and steamroll everything in a normal cRPG, then over time have worked backwards to try and make a game that regular players can get into. The major obvious downside to this is there's a shitload of stuff trivial if you're playing a certain way, but become bigass needless roadblocks for everyone else. I'm always abusing rest systems in these games, if I *can* rest after every single encounter, I will. If the game discourages this through an RNG roll I'll either bruteforce it through attempts or savescum. If they just make it impossible in an area, I'll backtrack and come back if able to do it. It's really hard to enforce DM-like authority over the player in this matter. In a tabletop, I obviously wouldn't try to suggest our party hunkers down for 8 hours after every brush with a hobgoblin and the DM wouldn't let us. Folks just tryna get around and not-be-dead by resting normally just get penalized for not having a balanced skill spread and camping poo poo with them, while someone who will never exercise the self-control to not abuse the game's rest systems will still be able to do so. I also wonder if some of the RNGiest moments I remember were more limitations of the system itself. Just thinking of fights where I'm left with one person alive attacking one enemy left and they're just so beefed up and immune to so much the only time they actually connect any damage are from like a critical hit aligning with a critical fail. I wonder if DMs at a tabletop ever have to get like that with players, crafting a fight of the immoveable rock vs unstoppable force.
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Mar 12, 2021 21:08
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DeathSandwich posted:I mean, they really do different things. Tristan gets pretty early and quick access to the channel healing talents that you kind of have to go out of your way for with Harrim, but you really have to keep him in the back line and out of danger in a way that you don't with Harrim. I tend to build Tristan as a hard nuker and load him down with fireballs and the like and roll him as a wizard what can heal. Harrim gets a hard support buffer / debuffer kit, dropping fears and getting swole before he goes in swinging Yeah, for me the least amount of party members that I need to babysit the better. Having a full caster who can survive on his own and intercept enemies going around the front line is invaluable, especially since you do get surrounded a few times. I prefer Sosiel to Daeran for largely the same reason. Jaethal is actually another reason I preferred Harrim, since he can heal her much easier than Tristan can. I switched her over to a tank though so I'm not sure how she does as in a damage roll. Probably sub-par since you can't enlarge her iirc so she'll likely find it quite hard to avoid dying without reach. Her special skeleton summoning is great though and if you switch her over to tank she does really well until the House.
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Mar 12, 2021 21:40
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The real secret use for Jaethal is absorbing the first strike of truly lethal enemies, because unlike everyone else she literally cannot die. No matter how hard she was flattened she'll always stand up at 1 hp at the end of the fight regardless of difficulty settings, so no need for worrying about Death's Door or purchasing resurrections .
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Mar 12, 2021 23:09
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I just hit rushlight so I've still got a ways to go but the general gist I've gotten is "companion missions are essential" and the reason is otherwise they leave, die or betray you near the end during crazy hard fights I've avoided the spoilers but it does seems like those outcomes are now pretty much guaranteed at a certain point tied to events from way further back in the game. Khanstant posted:I feel like more than anything they were just trying to make a game to challenge the people who are going to minmax and steamroll everything in a normal cRPG, then over time have worked backwards to try and make a game that regular players can get into. The major obvious downside to this is there's a shitload of stuff trivial if you're playing a certain way, but become bigass needless roadblocks for everyone else. The rest mechanics were a good idea but in general for pnp you don't have the equivalent of 25 random encounters per dungeon unless your DM is a psychotic rear end in a top hat. It's a problem they combined the rules of tabletop play with the design ideas for similar computer games. Pillars of Eternity did it way better by limiting the amount of camping supplies you could carry, versus have to devote 1//4 of your carry weight in rations because the way hunting & resting worked to really hurt your wrt the timers. It's why I wouldn't consider buying WotR until a similar bag of tricks mod is out. There's so many things in KM that are just bad design that should've been noticed even by min-max playtesters and removed (the main plot skill check location is a big one). I don't have confidence that Owlcat can get out of their own way to make a less arbitrarily punishing game. Even with all the people posting about their long term experiences playing pnp Pathfinder, they still point out how many specific encounters are just absolute bullshit and poorly designed. A big one is them pointing out a problem in the game but that a common pnp solution/strategy is absent from the game mechanics. Not being able to buy wands of cure light wounds is a big one. It's like they went for the core pnp audience, but then forgot or weren't able to include a lot of stuff that audience was used to in the first place. There are a lot of things that occur because the story demands it (and who writes the story?) that can really gently caress over the gameplay experience. No one would ever put up with a tabletop DM trying half that poo poo without walking away from the game. pentyne fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Mar 12, 2021 |
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Mar 12, 2021 23:15
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Wrath uses a Corruption mechanic for resting instead of rations, where if you do not rest at homebase or find altars to cleanse corruption, your corruption levels rise and you get debuffs. Some peopel like it more than carrying rations, others find it a bigger hassle to deal with (and it can get bugged at times in the beta). Bag of tricks equivalent will probably just freeze corruption
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Mar 12, 2021 23:25
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Ok so there's timers and fortunately I got to one before I go so far into the game that starting over is a big deal. Is catching up to that little poo poo in the Ancient Cave important or, gently caress it, just keep going?
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Mar 13, 2021 00:13
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Funky See Funky Do posted:Ok so there's timers and fortunately I got to one before I go so far into the game that starting over is a big deal. Is catching up to that little poo poo in the Ancient Cave important or, gently caress it, just keep going? Tartuccio? It's not that big of a deal to fail the tracking at that point. You'll get another shot to find out where he is if you keep exploring places. I really can't recommend this guide enough. If anyone ever needs a prompt when playing Kingmaker this is the best option to check on imo. Nephthys fucked around with this message at 00:33 on Mar 13, 2021 |
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Mar 13, 2021 00:27
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Nephthys posted:Tartuccio? It's not that big of a deal to fail the tracking at that point. You'll get another shot to find out where he is if you keep exploring places. Dealing with that guy is one of the primary objectives of the Intro. I think even if you take out the bandit you still have to go run that little poo poo down. If you get to his initial stop early you can recruit one of the NPCs who left with him, and if you miss it you wont be able to recruit either of those companions until you've been baron-ed. On the flip side if you go the other direction fast enough you can run into some of the bandit flunkies that you can convince to turncoat and help you at the fort. I can't remember what all else you can do if you beeline for certain early objectives quickly, but there are a decent amount of differences in the starter areas depending on what order you do them in.
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Mar 13, 2021 00:42
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Are enemies save vs spells going to be insane unless you have a caster decimated to raising their spell DC to the max at level 15+? I shot off a CC spell with Linzi and her spell DC was 20. The enemies bonus to save was +21. I'm checking spell lists but all the debuffs that work to lower saves also have saves? I'm not even sure besides Bane what would even work. It says to stack equipment that has bonuses to enchantment DC. I'm still not clear on how all the +stat works because it's +bonus to things like morale, competence, etc and I don't know if they stack. I put a bunch of +perception items on Jatheal for a while but then when checking her equipment realized it only counts a single +skill bonus. The one thing this game desperately needs is a UI that tells you what gear bonuses are being superseded by more powerful ones.
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Mar 13, 2021 23:10
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pentyne posted:The one thing this game desperately needs is a UI that tells you what gear bonuses are being superseded by more powerful ones. It doesn't, because no two bonuses of the same type stack (barring a small handful of exceptions, most of which you won't encounter - the only really relevant one is : multiple sources of Dodge bonuses stack) ; however bonuses of different *types* to the same stat stack. For example, a bard's Inspire Courage song attack bonus stacks with the attack bonus from the Bless spell because the former is a competence bonus and the latter is a morale bonus. But Bless doesn't stack with Heroism because they're both morale bonuses - in that case you only get the benefit from Heroism since it's a bigger bonus. Similarly, if you wear two pieces of gear that grant +2 to STR they won't add up, because they're both Enhancement bonuses so you'll only get +2 STR. If you cast Bull's Strength on yourself you'll only get the +4 from the spell because it's an Enhancement bonus as well, superceding the smaller bonus from your gear. If you cast Enlarge Person instead you'll also get a total of +4 : +2 from your gear, +2 from the Size bonus to STR from growing chonky. EDIT : oh, and re:Save DCs, yeah they can get ridiculous because they derive from base stats ; and Owlcat boosted the hell out of monsters' base stats (it used to be even more stupider ; but they toned it down). They'll still fail on a 1 (barring special immunities) though. Kobal2 fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Mar 13, 2021 |
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Mar 13, 2021 23:37
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pentyne posted:Are enemies save vs spells going to be insane unless you have a caster decimated to raising their spell DC to the max at level 15+? I shot off a CC spell with Linzi and her spell DC was 20. The enemies bonus to save was +21. I'm checking spell lists but all the debuffs that work to lower saves also have saves? I'm not even sure besides Bane what would even work. Most enemy types have at least 1 weak save out of reflex, fortitude and Will, so you have to be able to target all. A greater enraged owlbear that would never get poisoned and is resistant to slipping in grease (+21 fortitude and +15 reflex save) and has the strength of a tarrasque has a will save of +9. Wrath of the righteous does show which equipment/spells offer the same kind of bonus, but I do not think they will backport it.
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Mar 14, 2021 00:10
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Oh, real cool, surprise demi-god encounter in the castle you've been exploring I guess this must've been on of the backer things. I'm really noticing how some stuff is just insanely bad and out of place in even in this min/max game and that's usually because someone who put in $500 or something was allowed to write/design a combat encounter. I get the same vibes from the Middle of Nowhere quest, where you are placed into a forced 8hr timeskip during a conversation so a brutally hard encounter starts immediately when you have no buffs up. Thankfully they put minimal effort into him, because he's apparently hardwired to keep casting shield and mage armor no matter what else is happening, so every round I'd greater dispel and when his turned rolled around he'd just keep reapplying both spells and nothing else.
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Mar 14, 2021 10:25
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lol geez
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Mar 14, 2021 11:09
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pentyne posted:Oh, real cool, surprise demi-god encounter in the castle you've been exploring That one was just a hidden boss. It seems impressive, but his AC is rear end so he can die fast. The backer quests are the Pitax pirates and the codex which you dealt with, the Hellknights chasing the OC Donut Steel and the Surangamin priests you will meet next chapter.
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Mar 14, 2021 12:27
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pentyne posted:Oh, real cool, surprise demi-god encounter in the castle you've been exploring Where is that guy in kingmaker? Owlcat seems to love that kind of lopsided enemy statting. There's a nameless soldier enemy in like a Level 3 area in Wrath that has Power Attack and Piranha Strike (which aren't supposed to stack, but do for him) and like 40 strength. He has the same defensive stats as the other generic cultist enemies around so you'll either kill him in two seconds and not notice there's anything special about him or he'll hit your characters for thrice their max HP on a non-crit and you'll have no idea why half your party suddenly died.
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Mar 14, 2021 13:40
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It's an optional boss you need to find clues about and pass some really high skill checks to get to in the Pitax dungeons iirc. A game having some optional mega-bosses hidden in places is fairly normal. It's not much different to the Spawn of Rovagug.
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Mar 14, 2021 14:04
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I'm really glad the Atonement spell exists in Pathfinder, otherwise I'd have lapsed into Neutral at least twice now. Turns out it's really hard to stick to just one direction of the alignment compass when so many of the Evil (and Good, frankly) options are very clearly, obviously, dumb choices. Which is a good thing! But overall I like a lot of the Requires: Evil options that end up being available since they tend to shake things up pretty considerably. Nok-Nok continues to be the loving best, he is my personal Hero now and I will protect him with my life.
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Mar 14, 2021 20:11
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Sab Sabbington posted:I'm really glad the Atonement spell exists in Pathfinder, otherwise I'd have lapsed into Neutral at least twice now. Turns out it's really hard to stick to just one direction of the alignment compass when so many of the Evil (and Good, frankly) options are very clearly, obviously, dumb choices. Which is a good thing! But overall I like a lot of the Requires: Evil options that end up being available since they tend to shake things up pretty considerably. I've been trying to maintain a Lawful Evil run but tons of the Lawful Evil options are "this person is a spy, KILL THEM!" for a quest giver petitioner or being extremely cruel to people for no reason, like not even to profit off it. I've been mostly able to pick neutral evil options that aren't too insane, and occasionally a Chaotic Evil when its about someone I'm going to attack and kill anyway. Otherwise I'm doing a lot of lawful neutral to avoid any good options that are equally dumb. It doesn't help that apparently to succeed in all the companion quests and the only "good" answers are actually the "good" answers. Playing to evil or agreeing with them is actually a bad thing for what the ending outcome is. Nephthys posted:It's an optional boss you need to find clues about and pass some really high skill checks to get to in the Pitax dungeons iirc. A game having some optional mega-bosses hidden in places is fairly normal. It's not much different to the Spawn of Rovagug. It's pretty bad given how easily I beat him since his AI is broken; that CHA and HP are just completely insane in the context of a gritty real numbers game. It's one thing to build and create serious high level challenges by exploiting the poo poo out of the core ruleset the players are using, it's another to just go "whatever, add +10 to all their saves" for no reason other then making it difficult. pentyne fucked around with this message at 04:11 on Mar 15, 2021 |
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Mar 15, 2021 03:50
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I stopped my replay and rage-uninstalled because I hosed up the First World puzzle and all the walkthroughs I tried were wrong. Really hope there isn't something similar in Wrath...
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Mar 15, 2021 13:47
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While googling questions as I'm trying to solve issues in the game the sheer volume of posts I'm finding from Oct 2018 with people going "what the gently caress is this" is a pretty strong impression to give the next game a good year or so before I get invested in it. It's pretty much a 1:1 mix of people either calling bullshit on what was in the game or people defending it as good and telling them to go back to their casual rpgs and stop complaining.
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Mar 15, 2021 14:03
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Possibly. Given that Wrath is basically just Kingmaker But More Stuff and a Different Campaign there’s a pretty good chance it’ll launch in an enormously better state. Their game engine already had a lot of the kinks fixed thanks to Kingmaker’s shitshow of a launch 
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Mar 15, 2021 16:45
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Captain Oblivious posted:Possibly. Given that Wrath is basically just Kingmaker But More Stuff and a Different Campaign there’s a pretty good chance it’ll launch in an enormously better state. Also players know how owlcat builds their encounters and will minmax appropriately or suffer.
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Mar 15, 2021 17:09
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