|
Gelf posted:In the Disco S4 trailer I think it is Mr. Rhys who dies during their first encounter with the anomaly. I know the bridge set is loving huge and he could be standing off to the right, but you can see Bryce but no Rhys Oh no! Who else could do their important job of... ... ... um? What did they do again?
|
# ? Apr 8, 2021 00:21 |
|
|
# ? Apr 26, 2024 15:06 |
|
Gelf posted:In the Disco S4 trailer I think it is Mr. Rhys who dies during their first encounter with the anomaly. I know the bridge set is loving huge and he could be standing off to the right, but you can see Bryce but no Rhys Yeah, tactical would be just off camera to the right.
|
# ? Apr 8, 2021 00:24 |
|
They do really need to trim the completely superfluous bridge cast
|
# ? Apr 8, 2021 00:26 |
|
FlamingLiberal posted:They do really need to trim the completely superfluous bridge cast Whenever a bridge member is on-screen, they should be asking themselves, "why am I on screen and not Michael Burnham?"
|
# ? Apr 8, 2021 00:37 |
What if 6 Micheal Burnham's crewed the bridge?
|
|
# ? Apr 8, 2021 00:51 |
|
Nitrousoxide posted:What if 6 Micheal Burnham's crewed the bridge? I mean you say that, but that was one of Picard's better running gags.
|
# ? Apr 8, 2021 01:04 |
|
I'm reminded of that scene in the Disco S3 finale where the only bridge crew that actually ever do anything (Tilly and Owo) save the ship while the other three ones that never get to do anything just pass out
|
# ? Apr 8, 2021 01:39 |
|
Picard and faux-Picard, at Coppelius. Faux-Picard, when the tentacles came.
|
# ? Apr 8, 2021 07:54 |
|
JUST MAKING CHILI posted:Picard and faux-Picard, at Coppelius. Faux-Pacard, a polite mistake in first-contact diplomacy.
|
# ? Apr 8, 2021 08:01 |
|
Imagine finding out that the difference between yourself and your mirror universe counterpart is that your counterpart actually had ambition and was proactive.
|
# ? Apr 8, 2021 08:52 |
|
Alchenar posted:Imagine finding out that the difference between yourself and your mirror universe counterpart is that your counterpart actually had ambition and was proactive. I'd say good for Mirror Universe Me. I'm happy he's out there living his best mirror life.
|
# ? Apr 8, 2021 08:55 |
|
please stop doxxing
|
# ? Apr 8, 2021 08:58 |
|
Khanstant posted:If souls existed, nothing changed. New body, old soul, so what. If souls are a magic thingy that somehow contains the information that makes up your previous body and mental state as to provide a copy to the new body... still a new thing. What happens when you take a soul and put it in someone else's body, do they become one soul, or does Tuvix have two souls? Are we sure souls have any value, or are they just intangible parasites feeding on the life experiences of living beings? Khanstant posted:Picard is dead and they mashed an altered copy of some of the memory data from his corpse (temporarily stored and altered in a quantum simulation, along with a reconstructed-simulation) of Data into a new body meant for someone else, but they instead used it to non-consensually make a copy of the dead. Picard died when he died. Copy-of-Picard was born when they cobbled together harvested memories and put it in a framework for consciousness in the sim and then transferred that consciousness to the golem. Erulisse posted:Oh cmon its same argument as with transporters. Erulisse posted:The consciousness interrupts. Powered Descent posted:The philosophical issues raised by the transporter were best explored by a Canadian cartoon from 1990. Well worth a watch. You have a person, let's say Fred, go into a teleporter. Out of the other end comes Fred¹, who claims to be Fred. The cartoon wants to argue that he is actually not Fred but a meaningfully distinct person. But to make this argument, it changes the scenario. In the altered scenario, Fred goes into the teleporter and both Fred¹ and Fred² come out, both claiming to be Fred. But only one Fred is allowed, so one of them has to die. Neither one wants to, so they each set out to prove that the other is the "copy". But that's missing the point. If Fred¹ is Fred then so is Fred². They're distinct from each other, but that doesn't invalidate either one's claim to being the "real" Fred. From an outside perspective, it doesn't actually matter which one of them is killed - Fred survives, because there's no meaningful difference between "original" and "copy" if it's a perfect copy. They're both Fred. Nitrousoxide posted:The ship is theseus problem for the continuity of self is a related, but different one from the transporter problem. Theseus at least has continuous uninterpreted operation of the ship. A transporter does not.
|
# ? Apr 8, 2021 09:09 |
|
If the Freds had any sense, they'd realise they'd created a matter duplicator and would start buying as much gold and jewels as they could afford to shove them in there.
|
# ? Apr 8, 2021 09:19 |
|
OG Harry Kim’s body is still out there in space. Somewhere.
|
# ? Apr 8, 2021 09:24 |
|
Gonz posted:OG Harry Kim’s body is still out there in space.
|
# ? Apr 8, 2021 09:52 |
|
Retrowave Joe posted:The new Star Trek Legends game on the Apple Store is a pretty good gacha with zero ads or microtransactions. I like how Riker is glaring at Michael like he's silently thinking "Goddamit don't you gently caress this up Burnham!" Ironically this is how he ends up happily ever after with Lyndsay Ballard...
|
# ? Apr 8, 2021 12:39 |
Tiggum posted:It makes literally no difference. If continuity of consciousness is what makes your identity secure than replacing your brain or your entire body piece by piece are you remain in a continuity of consciousness and the individual pieces of you lose the continuity of consciousness once they are removed then it does potentially avoid the ship of Theseus issue. Now, there are reasons to probably think that you don’t lose identity upon a interruption in your continuity of consciousness, otherwise someone who briefly ends up knocked out or is undergoing surgery and has general anesthesia would you be killed in a new person would awaken.
|
|
# ? Apr 8, 2021 12:42 |
|
Arquinsiel posted:If it makes anyone feel better, there are very few cells that aren't replaced regularly in the human body, so there's very little of the original "you" left for a transporter to kill anyways. Oh they're all distinct in House of Suns too by design; the minds of the shatterlings (the process of cloning oneself into a thousand bodies is called 'shattering') were identical to start but their experiences shaped them and sharing memories at the Reunions, while bringing them closer together and giving them a sense of continuity between them, isn't enough to make them identical. They all give themselves unique names and by the time of the book they're a fairly broad range of people. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 13:26 on Apr 8, 2021 |
# ? Apr 8, 2021 13:23 |
|
I think continuity used in this way can actually be discontinuous in terms of time. Scotty was apparently not conscious in any meaningful sense while locked in a cycle of the pattern buffer for decades. He resumed the state he was in when he dematerialized and I don't think the interceding time has any bearing on it whatsoever.
|
# ? Apr 8, 2021 13:48 |
|
Retrowave Joe posted:The new Star Trek Legends game on the Apple Store is a pretty good gacha with zero ads or microtransactions. It's funny how even there you can see how badly the Discovery uniform just blends into the scenery unlike the others. Tiggum posted:The argument laid out in this cartoon doesn't hold up. "This argument doesn't hold up to my personal altered scenario" isn't quite the solid footing you think it is. It also doesn't work anyway, because the moment both Freds see eachother they'd disassociate due to now-unique perspectives from something as simple as waking up in different pods. Fred2's gonna KNOW he's different just by being a little more to the left when he opens the door, and he can't definitively say he's the same Fred, because there's Fred1 walking out the same pod he supposedly went in.
|
# ? Apr 8, 2021 14:17 |
|
Tiggum posted:In the altered scenario, Fred goes into the teleporter and both Fred¹ and Fred² come out, both claiming to be Fred. But only one Fred is allowed, so one of them has to die. Neither one wants to, so they each set out to prove that the other is the "copy". But that's missing the point. If Fred¹ is Fred then so is Fred². They're distinct from each other, but that doesn't invalidate either one's claim to being the "real" Fred. The point is that "real" is a meaningless distinction. They are two distinct entities and their life experiences begin to diverge the instant Fred 2 is created. That's why the original Fred doesn't want to die. He is his own person. If they were both the real Fred there would be no reason to distinguish between them, but you have to because they're different people. Typical Pubbie fucked around with this message at 14:30 on Apr 8, 2021 |
# ? Apr 8, 2021 14:25 |
|
Nitrousoxide posted:continuity of consciousness Neddy Seagoon posted:"This argument doesn't hold up to my personal altered scenario" isn't quite the solid footing you think it is. Neddy Seagoon posted:It also doesn't work anyway, because the moment both Freds see eachother they'd disassociate due to now-unique perspectives from something as simple as waking up in different pods. Fred2's gonna KNOW he's different just by being a little more to the left when he opens the door, and he can't definitively say he's the same Fred, because there's Fred1 walking out the same pod he supposedly went in. The question originally posed is whether Fred¹ is Fred. Then it tells us that Fred¹ isn't Fred². And because of the way it framed those two questions as actually being the same question, we're left with the impression that "Fred¹ isn't Fred²" somehow proves that "Fred¹ isn't Fred". But it doesn't prove that at all.
|
# ? Apr 8, 2021 14:27 |
|
Tiggum posted:no meaningful difference between "original" and "copy" if it's a perfect copy. They're both Fred. The one that originally though "I should step in transporter" and then stepped out of said transporter in the same place is the OG one. Not the one who remembered saying it, the one who said it is. The continuous though is what it is. The consciousness. The thing that made you click "reply". So yeah it makes the difference for the og one. Yes the second one is totally the same but the original ceases to exist. ps the "soul" chat is bullshit
|
# ? Apr 8, 2021 14:31 |
|
transporting is a crime against the lord and corrupts your soul, forever condemning it to hell, hth
|
# ? Apr 8, 2021 14:35 |
|
Typical Pubbie posted:
Erulisse posted:
|
# ? Apr 8, 2021 14:38 |
|
Erulisse posted:The one that originally though "I should step in transporter" and then stepped out of said transporter in the same place is the OG one. Not the one who remembered saying it, the one who said it is. From a legalistic or socially constructed sense maybe "original" is just probably not a meaningful signifier for something like consciousness that changes moment to moment anyway. There is no "you" in there, just a pattern that results from the previous pattern one moment earlier. If a duplication process produces identical patterns, A=A they are identical, their only meaningful differences are spatial/location. What they experience in the next moment diverges them. Erulisse posted:ps
|
# ? Apr 8, 2021 14:40 |
|
Transporters work however the show says they work because they don't actually exist.
|
# ? Apr 8, 2021 14:40 |
|
Tiggum posted:
What you're fundamentally missing is you are subjectively pointing at both Freds and saying you could live with either one as the definitive Fred you know and speak to. Both Freds, however, are going to have very different ideas on the subject, namely that one of them knows they popped into existence a few minutes ago and there's a pre-existing Fred proving that no they did not just blip across the room and reassemble.
|
# ? Apr 8, 2021 14:41 |
|
Emrikol posted:Transporters work however the show says they work because they don't actually exist. yes, we've covered that Much of the discussion actually arises because of the inconsistency of how they work within the show, in fact
|
# ? Apr 8, 2021 14:42 |
|
Neddy Seagoon posted:What you're fundamentally missing is you are subjectively pointing at both Freds and saying you could live with either one as the definitive Fred you know and speak to. Both Freds, however, are going to have very different ideas on the subject, namely that one of them knows they popped into existence a few minutes ago and there's a pre-existing Fred proving that no they did not just blip across the room and reassemble. Right, social constructs
|
# ? Apr 8, 2021 14:42 |
|
Would you create a perfect copy of Hitler so that you could punish him? Makes you think.
|
# ? Apr 8, 2021 14:43 |
|
The Bloop posted:
How is metaphysical concept of inexistent and scientifically inmeasurable, inexplainable "soul" compared to conscious thought process (the electric impulses in one's brain) though?
|
# ? Apr 8, 2021 15:35 |
|
Tiggum posted:
1. Everyone can claim all they want. Doesn't change the fact that one of them can be physically traced to being present in the room before the creation of the copy. 2. Not for the outside viewer, yet there is. 3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness 4. We do not cease to exist every moment. One's vitals and brain waves, electric impulses do not cease to exist, they continue existing. It's a process. In case of a copy, they appear. In case of transporter, they appear in a new body and cease to exist in previous one.
|
# ? Apr 8, 2021 15:45 |
|
Erulisse posted:How is metaphysical concept of inexistent and scientifically inmeasurable, inexplainable "soul" compared to conscious thought process (the electric impulses in one's brain) though? Not 100% sure I am parsing your question correctly but the idea of a Self that is Continuous is the concept of a soul In order for identical A=A duplicated consciousnesses to meaningfully* have an "original" and a "copy" there would have to be something non-fungible and lasting about one of those consciousnesses that links it and it alone back to the pre-duplication version. We generally call that thing a soul. *duplicates would be in different spatial coordinates, because that's how space works, and laws and mores and social instincts may treat them differently, but none of that makes them actually different from each other at the moment of duplication
|
# ? Apr 8, 2021 15:45 |
|
I always understood concept of "soul" as the something divine, "incorporeal essence of a living being". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul Maybe because it doesn't exist or have not been proven to exist even theoretically it has so many different concepts? I am talking about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness, which someone refers to as a soul, but it is not. They coincide in some parts of the concept of the soul, but are not the same thing. I'll put it as blunt and as dumb as i am myself soul and consciousness lead to totally different wikipedia pages one talks mainly about philosophy and religion while the other one is talking science Erulisse fucked around with this message at 15:54 on Apr 8, 2021 |
# ? Apr 8, 2021 15:50 |
|
lmao a wikipedia link to define consciousness Presumably we are not attaching self-identity to the MEAT which contains the consciousness? Again, legally, maybe in some way. If we could do a brain transplant of Steve's brain into a brain-dead cadaver (formerly home of Greg), most of the body would be Greg's but we would still call that Steve, wouldn't we? Like, they don't get Greg's house and wife because they are wearing their body now? What we are really tracking though is Steve the consciousness, not the brain. That's the person which seems like what we should be caring about The Duplicator thought experiment throws a wrinkle into this but if Steve is duplicated, Steve(left side of room) and Steve(right side of room) are divergent consciousnesses, not an old one and a new one.
|
# ? Apr 8, 2021 15:53 |
|
The Bloop posted:lmao a wikipedia link to define consciousness Sorry I lack eloquence and language ability to explain myself better discussing such intricate matters. It's my third language, after all Yeah, "person" could work too. Consciousness of Steve in Steve's brain is living inside Greg's body. ps If we could take Steve's brain electric impulses and move them to Greg's brain, it would be still Steve's consciousness, if you get what I'm meaning here Erulisse fucked around with this message at 15:59 on Apr 8, 2021 |
# ? Apr 8, 2021 15:55 |
|
Typical Pubbie posted:Would you create a perfect copy of Hitler so that you could punish him? Makes you think. Do it many times. Make a coin-op machine that'll create and dispense a new sentient Hitler-copy-in-a-box that you can take home and watch being punished to your heart's content, and... drat it,
|
# ? Apr 8, 2021 15:57 |
|
|
# ? Apr 26, 2024 15:06 |
|
Erulisse posted:Sorry I lack eloquence and language ability to explain myself better discussing such intricate matters. It's my third language, after all No worries, you do better in a third than I do in a second I'm just saying that neither Steve (left side of room) or Steve (right side of room) is "old" Steve - they are both just two Steves Since we are positing that the Steveness gets duplicated perfectly and the meat doesn't matter
|
# ? Apr 8, 2021 16:00 |