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KoRMaK posted:sorry that happened to you, thats really lovely of straight white cis male, i hit 3 and that's like once of a single-digit count of peeps bein racist to me outside of dating, dont save your condolences for me but its just objectively funny (if and only if you're the interviewer which i was and if you can reject w great prejudice which i got to) lol bob dobbs is dead fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Apr 10, 2021 |
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Apr 10, 2021 22:01
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bob dobbs is dead posted:i am at 14 contacts and polite refusals given to aws recruiters as of today I’ve just been replying with single word “no” and some of the AWS recruiters will actually follow up asking to get back in touch if I chance my mind. to which I reply “nah”
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Apr 10, 2021 22:15
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Should've hired him just so you could shout "YOU ARE loving FIRED" on his first day 
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Apr 10, 2021 22:16
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Corla Plankun posted:(as a person who passes for straight/cis-male/white) all of the bad things i have ever experienced from any job directly stemmed from someone else being bad at their job. I honestly don't even know how you could write this because it seems like such an obviously wrong statement so i get that it frustrated you and was a burden on the team in terms of productivity but did that really affect your job in a meaningful way? i'm asking you to think outside of the anxiety of feeling like someone else is dragging you down or the anger that someone else is taking up a slot that a more qualified candidate could have had and really ask yourself: did it actually affect your job? fwiw i have the same issue with underperforming colleagues but tbh i think a lot of it is in my head. like who gives a gently caress if my coworker doesn't really know what they're doing? if someone forces me to mentor them then yeah it'll affect me but beyond that i can't really fault the grift
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Apr 10, 2021 22:46
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"Outside of making you feel like poo poo, did it really affect you?" lol
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Apr 10, 2021 22:58
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I mean if someone in your team being at best a dead weight, at worst actively hampering the progress of the team (taking away time from senior who mentor them, etc), doesn't affect you because you have the spare headcount or no deadlines to target, congrats.
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Apr 10, 2021 23:01
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that's kinda what i mean though like if you're responsible for deadlines and headcount obviously that's different but if it's just your anxiety from a percieved lack of productivity isn't that more of an indictment of what capitalism does to our brains than anything the coworker is doing?
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Apr 10, 2021 23:07
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Xarn posted:"Outside of making you feel like poo poo, did it really affect you?" like i'm not disagreeing that it might make you feel like poo poo but digging a little deeper, why does it make you feel like poo poo? unpack that. does it actually have anything to do with you or is it just the idea that everyone should be pulling their weight? is that your responsibility?
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Apr 10, 2021 23:11
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raminasi posted:i think there’s a shadow employment world out there where nobody is expected to actually do anything productive at any point. this would explain both the guy we interviewed who had 20 years of experience yet refuses to believe that recursion even existed and the various corporate websites i’m sure we’ve all used that have failed to even sniff at basic functionality for years my entire company is this i checked out like 3 years ago and they jeep giving me figgies
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Apr 10, 2021 23:29
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Blinkz0rz posted:like i'm not disagreeing that it might make you feel like poo poo but digging a little deeper, why does it make you feel like poo poo? unpack that. does it actually have anything to do with you or is it just the idea that everyone should be pulling their weight? is that your responsibility? i enjoy building things. i do not enjoy not building things because i'm instead spending all my time cleaning up messes some idiot made instead. i'm sorry that you apparently cannot conceive of the idea of enjoying doing something that you are getting paid to do
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Apr 10, 2021 23:48
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Achmed Jones posted:re: people not knowing how to program i think they assume they'll pick it up on the job. especially if they're used to kinda getting thrown in the deep end and it working out. mostly that happens when people think they're getting thrown in the deep end, but actually the "deep end" is a carefully crafted college course that goes over the fundamentals to make sure that nobody's left out. software dev is a somewhat unusual field in that it's skilled labor (which is a loving lovely name for "you have to learn how to do this before getting a job rather than on the job") but doesn't have any certifications or anything to indicate that. there's a lot of white collar jobs where previous experience is a plus but not a requirement, and if you know nothing about the field i think it's easy to look at programming, see that there's no license you need, and assume it's the same.
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Apr 10, 2021 23:58
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I couldn't give a care if someone is extracting easy money from a faceless corp, but unless you're so removed from that "underperforming colleague" that you never interact with them professionally, there is always the fact that their incompetence (and your tolerance thereof) may be associated w/you when you're dealing with people that don't know that dynamic. Example, I worked w a civil engineer for a long while who basically could not be trusted on his own to do much more than print drawing sets and make deliveries. Even with that vanishingly tiny responsibility, he managed to shiv my credibility with a client by printing and delivering a set of obsolete drawings on my first project with them. I've since formed a decent relationship with that client, but figuring out what happened and doing damage control on that while 500 miles from my work computer after getting an angry email from the Owner's PM while I was insanely hungover from a wedding was one of the worst weekends of my life.
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Apr 11, 2021 00:00
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Plorkyeran posted:i enjoy building things. i do not enjoy not building things because i'm instead spending all my time cleaning up messes some idiot made instead. ask yourself why you're cleaning up those messes. isn't that their responsibility and not yours? is someone forcing you to do it? what would happen if you didn't clean up their mess? i like building things too but i don't resent colleagues that are obviously out of their depth and just trying to cash paychecks until they get found out. i'm not gonna narc on them but i'm not going to protect them either. let the chips fall as they may. but also maybe try to think about why someone else's incompetence bothers you so much.
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Apr 11, 2021 00:11
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beep boop these human emotions don't compute, why don't you just turn up and turn time into money, any other feelings are irrelevant, paying attention to the other humans or their work is irrelevant
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Apr 11, 2021 00:22
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Blinkz0rz posted:i don't resent colleagues that are obviously out of their depth and just trying to cash paychecks until they get found out. i'm not gonna narc on them but i'm not going to protect them either. let the chips fall as they may. i agree with your first point as long as i dont have to work with them. if i do, it bothers me because i cant do my job until they do theirs. for example, im not a software engineer, but i work with them. im an ee. so, like, i set up the test hardware, give the I/O specs/needs to the software guy, and while im wiring stuff up he's integrating it with the computer system. in the past, ive worked with a software eng who had decades of experience, but after over a year at our company, he was still not very competent at simple things, so i would be waiting days to weeks for him to figure his stuff out, banging my head against problems that he insist weren't software (they were), and having to explain to management why my testing wasn't done yet, when ive been gated by that guy for weeks. at the moment i work with a very helpful and competent software guy, who is on the ball, finishes his contribution around the same time i finish mine, and we can effectively troubleshoot the problems together. we run into fewer problems this way, and we both look better to management. sure, live and let live, but r&d is a team effort, and it's frustrating for everyone else when some can't pull even a fraction of their own weight
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Apr 11, 2021 00:24
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Xik posted:beep boop these human emotions don't compute, why don't you just turn up and turn time into money, any other feelings are irrelevant, paying attention to the other humans or their work is irrelevant 100% what i'm saying your reading comprehension is unmatched
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Apr 11, 2021 00:28
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raminasi posted:tbh this seems like fair play from them, 3 months isn’t nothing and once an employee starts actively looking elsewhere it’s really hard to un-burn them out you’re right about that and I’m perfectly fine with the deal I got. as much as me telling them I quit would have been satisfying, I am not gonna look at 3 months of salary and benefits as a bad thing. just found the whole situation mildly funny. not really angry about it, more just amused because if they waited like 3 more weeks they wouldn’t have had to pay me out for 3 months.
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Apr 11, 2021 00:31
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i dont mind someone fleecing the company for money, but yea it's annoying to have to engage in this lie that they are creating which we can't talk about directly, thats kind of a wierd experience. on top of that, i like to personally be productive and keep learning and growing, so people that aren't engaged in that i dont want on my team. find a different team that is cool with it, but for me, im already wasting my time here having to work my whole life so don't make it more unpleasant for me. it also demonstrates that they dont give a poo poo about my time or me, which is fine but go gently caress off somewhere else. being in a relationship like that isnt healthy for me
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Apr 11, 2021 01:25
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Blinkz0rz posted:ask yourself why you're cleaning up those messes. isn't that their responsibility and not yours? is someone forcing you to do it? what would happen if you didn't clean up their mess? then the thing i work on would be broken and our users would be sad. i have empathy for my users, so that makes me sad too. i guess if you are working on something that no one uses or you hate the people who use it then there would be no reason to give a gently caress, but thankfully that is not my job and i would get a new one if it became that. it's really loving weird that you're trying to blame capitalism for this somehow. i have the exact same feelings towards net-negative coworkers as i do towards net-negative contributors to open source projects i have worked on in the past. idgaf about a potato who does nothing and gets a paycheck; i care about people who actively get in the way of what gives me job satisfaction.
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Apr 11, 2021 04:19
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it inherently IS about captilism in a pretty significant way, but yeah its still annoying and a bummer because of the reasons you mentioned
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Apr 11, 2021 04:33
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please explain how capitalism is relevant in any way because i really don't see it
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Apr 11, 2021 04:43
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if you didn't have to work for food and shelter and healthcare then those people who do nothing at work just wouldn't go to work at your job
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Apr 11, 2021 04:46
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yep, and I would probably not have anxiety about my performance or my teams performance as it tied to my own survival
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Apr 11, 2021 04:54
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it would also be easier to rat someone out who's not carrying their weight if it didn't mean their family might go hungry or not be able to get medical treatment.
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Apr 11, 2021 04:56
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i think it's weird you cant see the link. Do you think people go to work because they like it? maybe you do but many people have to do it because if they don't they'll die. choosing computering makes you lots of money so it makes plenty of sense to go into it even if you don't particularly care for it, because capitalism
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Apr 11, 2021 04:59
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Rather than 'ratting out', I would phrase it as helping them find what they truly want to do and are good at by helping them move on from this job lol
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Apr 11, 2021 04:59
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yeah that was probably a poor choice of phrasing. really you could just do a job you actually liked if you didn't have to worry about dying of easily preventable disease because you wanted to be an artist or something
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Apr 11, 2021 05:00
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Blinkz0rz posted:ask yourself why you're cleaning up those messes. isn't that their responsibility and not yours? is someone forcing you to do it? what would happen if you didn't clean up their mess? The most common pattern in my experience for bad employees is an inability to do tricky work that requires self-directed research. So it will usually be that they're given a task and can do some or most of it but get hung up on the trickiest part. Unfortunately this is usually the least pleasant part of the task So picture an employee that can write some basic code, but maybe they can't get their tests reliably passing, or they need help with some deployment issue or some networking issue blah blah... Or maybe they run into problems writing the software itself and you have to learn about what they've written to get them over their issue. If you're a good employee, your manager is probably going to ask you to help. You can say no of course but keep doing that and you look bad, you're not a team player, maybe you wont' get fired but forget about a solid raise or promotion. So now I have my own job, which includes the fun easy stuff I enjoy like coding and also the tedious stuff like fixing bugs tests blah blah... but I also have the worst part of this other person's job. tl;dr a bad employee can usually do the easy fun stuff but not the hard stuff, so they might be able to contribute to the team but it means that the percentage of irritating, difficult stuff I have to work on goes up ADINSX fucked around with this message at 05:08 on Apr 11, 2021 |
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Apr 11, 2021 05:05
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Blinkz0rz posted:ask yourself why you're cleaning up those messes. isn't that their responsibility and not yours? is someone forcing you to do it? what would happen if you didn't clean up their mess? If you ask me whether I hate some hypothetical completely unskilled employee somewhere, then the answer is no. But if they are on my team, or on related teams, then they affect me, so gently caress them. That guy that needs month to write one day worth of code, creates incomprehensible mess in the process and writes tests that test less than nothing? That guy will eventually make a PR, and someone on the team will have to review. Also, you are the guy who insisted that their team is completely unreliable and couldn't possibly move to remote work, so I am not sure you are asking questions here genuinely.
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Apr 11, 2021 13:19
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Xarn posted:If you ask me whether I hate some hypothetical completely unskilled employee somewhere, then the answer is no. But if they are on my team, or on related teams, then they affect me, so gently caress them. That guy that needs month to write one day worth of code, creates incomprehensible mess in the process and writes tests that test less than nothing? That guy will eventually make a PR, and someone on the team will have to review. i've spent this entire discussion caveating my argument with "if you're responsible for the team management, delivery, and/or hiring and firing this doesn't apply" but, to your question, no, i'm the guy who said that there was some nuance in terms of whether a team could support remote workers well and it's not entirely one-sided at the time i was leading a team i inherited of 3 guys who were all about a year out of college and each had serious issues with communication and delivery. as their manager, i had a number of conversations with each of them about their issues and had to put one of them on a pip for their poor performance if we had been forced to go completely remote i would have quit because the difficulty of managing them remotely would have been far more than i wanted to take on for what i was being paid i've since moved on from that team and consider it a major dodged bullet in my career. in the 2 years since i've left they've been through 3 other managers who have all left saying the same thing that said, now that i'm not responsible for the team, i don't begrudge the one guy who's still there. dude is just trying to keep his head down and stack paper to pay his mortgage. he doesn't live, breathe, and eat computers, he just wants to do a job and get paid well so he can live his life. as a professional, would i hope that he raises his own standards? sure, but that because i have high standards for myself and it's easy to project that on other people. is that fair?
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Apr 11, 2021 14:03
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Does he genuinely not affect you in any way? Are you not missing headcount? Do you not have to review poo poo code? Is he genuinely just a parasitic tick on the company's cash flow, and there really is no difference in him existing apart from some money going in a different way? If your answer is yes to all, then yeah, whatever. But I kinda doubt it, and if it was true, I would question the quality of your management layer a lot There is a real difference in my happiness with work between working with baseline competent people, vs having a coworker to whom I have to explain, for the third time this month, that tests are supposed to contain assertions.
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Apr 11, 2021 14:20
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Asymmetric POSTer posted:my entire company is this hard same!! when I was a consultant we had this client where we worked with their devs in modernizing their system. One dev there I think was from South Africa and he somehow got another Indian dev to do all of his work as well as his own work. To this day I am not sure how that dude stayed with the company for years. I have seen tons of free loaders while consulting and agree there is a way to get hired at big calcified siloed orgs where you can coast forever. It shocks me but is probably a feature of capitalism and not a big. wrt coding tests my main issue is that nothing you do gives you any insight into someone’s programming ability. it is performative bs. At least make the test part of what you would do day to day instead of some software look-we-are-real-engineers circle jerk. A code review of an actual commit should be all you really need during an interview . Maybe a saved branch with a bug or two to fix and tests to run if you have to have a take home.
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Apr 11, 2021 15:22
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syntaxrigger posted:hard same!! "hire and/or move a junior person under yourself to do your entire job" is definitely commonplace here, lots of directors/senior managers with just 1-2 direct reports Asymmetric POSTer fucked around with this message at 15:33 on Apr 11, 2021 |
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Apr 11, 2021 15:27
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Asymmetric POSTer posted:"hire and/or move a junior person under yourself to do your entire job" is definitely commonplace here, lots of directors/senior managers with just 1-2 direct reports The weird thing is that the dude he got to do all the work was an adult and should have known better. They were even peers. It was bizarre. I was assigned to them and every standup was a lie.
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Apr 11, 2021 15:50
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Xarn posted:Does he genuinely not affect you in any way? Are you not missing headcount? Do you not have to review poo poo code? Is he genuinely just a parasitic tick on the company's cash flow, and there really is no difference in him existing apart from some money going in a different way? If your answer is yes to all, then yeah, whatever. But I kinda doubt it, and if it was true, I would question the quality of your management layer a lot I thought about this a bit more, and I think the conflict here is that it is hard to imagine situation where 1) I know that someone is 100% freeloading, development vacuum that does nothing 2) Them being the above has no effect on my own work The biggest problem I have with a theoretical situation where my employer selects 10k most useless people and just pays them big tech salary for nothing is that it would inevitably select bunch of rear end in a top hat politicians
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Apr 11, 2021 16:45
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From the previous pages comments, is AWS notorious for being a bad workplace? I'm not usually tuned in to that kind of news
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Apr 12, 2021 06:20
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QuarkJets posted:From the previous pages comments, is AWS notorious for being a bad workplace? I'm not usually tuned in to that kind of news you know there was an entire nyt investigative report into how amazon white collar peeps were crying at their desks and having buttfuck insane poo poo demanded of them right
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Apr 12, 2021 06:29
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even beyond that, beyond just being a prime member more of your quality of life increases would come from amazon tears
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Apr 12, 2021 06:37
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QuarkJets posted:From the previous pages comments, is AWS notorious for being a bad workplace? I'm not usually tuned in to that kind of news I've worked there for a couple of years. It didn't start out too bad but the erosion of your work life balance really creeps up on you as you contribute to more and more projects, you're never really through with anything. A lot of developers are stuck in that SDE II -> III promotion grind too, late nights are common and its honestly getting really demoralizing seeing emails/check-ins teammates sent the previous day at 8 or 9 at night and knowing I have to try and compete with that.
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Apr 12, 2021 06:51
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bob dobbs is dead posted:you know there was an entire nyt investigative report into how amazon white collar peeps were crying at their desks and having buttfuck insane poo poo demanded of them right No, not right, I did not know that. I literally said that I haven't been reading about this kind of stuff and have no awareness of it, so thank you for the information I guess
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Apr 12, 2021 09:05
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