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I feel like removing low chance crits does not by itself produce no risk fire emblem
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Apr 24, 2021 22:32
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fire emblem 6.... is good
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Apr 24, 2021 23:16
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Amppelix posted:what are they Hit from outside their range Use support bonuses Rig 100% crit rates One of my favorite mechanics from Fates was Attack Stance and Guard Stance. Most threatening encounters become a non-issue when you can reliably rig a one-shot or a perfect guard on nearly every enemy. Especially since every post-Awakening game lets you see the enemies turn order.
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Apr 24, 2021 23:26
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Amppelix posted:what are they Attacking from outside the enemy's reach, using a powerful weapon that'll kill without letting them counter, going in with a character who has the hp/def to take a crit or the luck to nullify the risk (or even enough avoid to dodge the attack entirely), i'm bad at Fire Emblem so i probably forgot something. Skills, supports, items, and/or terrain can also help a character avoid or survive a crit or kill/disable the opponent. cheetah7071 posted:I feel like removing low chance crits does not by itself produce no risk fire emblem People were talking about removing hit rates too. 
vilkacis fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Apr 24, 2021 |
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Apr 24, 2021 23:34
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The most reliable way to avoid crit chances is to play boring. I think Fire Emblem should be designed so that playing boring is not the optimal solution to the problems the player faces.
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Apr 25, 2021 00:30
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I guess if engaging with the mechanics and using the right character/item/skill for the job is more boring than mindlessly throwing units with iron swords at it while praying for good rng? Don't really see it though.
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Apr 25, 2021 01:11
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Yeah those are the only two options
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Apr 25, 2021 01:13
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nrook posted:The most reliable way to avoid crit chances is to play boring. I think Fire Emblem should be designed so that playing boring is not the optimal solution to the problems the player faces. What do you consider playing boring?
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Apr 25, 2021 01:16
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If you think tedious turtling strats are optimal, removing enemy crits isn't going to do anything to change that for you.
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Apr 25, 2021 01:24
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Turtling was discouraged all the way back in FE1 and they kept going with those discouragements all the way through Path of Radiance, in the form of timed optional objectives--thieves going after treasure and destroying villages. Radiant Dawn mostly got rid of that and it never really came back in a big way (though individual chapters sometimes have it as a gimmick). Though, around the same time they added new difficulties where extremely defensive play is mostly impossible (unless you're doing cheese strats e.g. nosferatu in Awakening). I do prefer the design of the retro games, where defensive play is allowed but discouraged by depriving you of treasure--it pushes the player to play the game in an aggressive, risky way which is a lot of fun for a lot of people, and people who really don't enjoy that play style can just skip a few treasures and turtle anyways. Very similar to how Jagens function, where you can decide on your own difficulty in the middle of play, outside of a difficulty selection screen.
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Apr 25, 2021 01:35
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I kinda liked the mechanic from Fates which sorta "locked" crits with certain weapons.
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Apr 25, 2021 02:05
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BlazetheInferno posted:Didn't you kill basically all of the Problematic Senators during Act 4 and the Finale? Possible exception of Oliver if he forced his way onto your team. Plus it would mean we'd get three games, each centering (in that RD's most iconic part is Part 1) on a different Beorc nation of Tellius. cheetah7071 posted:Turtling was discouraged all the way back in FE1 and they kept going with those discouragements all the way through Path of Radiance, in the form of timed optional objectives--thieves going after treasure and destroying villages. Radiant Dawn mostly got rid of that and it never really came back in a big way (though individual chapters sometimes have it as a gimmick).
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Apr 25, 2021 02:06
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Oh yeah I forgot about that. It's a bit more invisible though because they don't tell you the turn limits for bexp. If a thief is going after a chest, you know if you hosed up. If you go past the bexp cutoff you might not even have any idea you did anything wrong.
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Apr 25, 2021 02:11
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cheetah7071 posted:Oh yeah I forgot about that. It's a bit more invisible though because they don't tell you the turn limits for bexp. If a thief is going after a chest, you know if you hosed up. If you go past the bexp cutoff you might not even have any idea you did anything wrong.
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Apr 25, 2021 02:21
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No critical hit can't be accounted for. It may be more effort to go through, manually do the calc of damage for an enemy who might attack you on the next turn, calculate your HP and defense and other incoming damage, and determine if your unit is safe or not. But that's not the game having a problem, that's your inability to account for it. It's the same in Pokemon, you can in fact, play around crits. You might not want to and that's fine, but you don't then get to complain that you got crit and lost. It's not even hard math, it's pretty easy math. And I say this as captain hyper-offense who hasn't got tactical depth beyond "If I kill them, they can't kill me, so ABA"
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Apr 25, 2021 05:09
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1% crits should be illegal unless im the one doing them
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Apr 25, 2021 05:14
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Onmi posted:No critical hit can't be accounted for. It may be more effort to go through, manually do the calc of damage for an enemy who might attack you on the next turn, calculate your HP and defense and other incoming damage, and determine if your unit is safe or not. But that's not the game having a problem, that's your inability to account for it. It's the same in Pokemon, you can in fact, play around crits. You might not want to and that's fine, but you don't then get to complain that you got crit and lost. It's not even hard math, it's pretty easy math. And I say this as captain hyper-offense who hasn't got tactical depth beyond "If I kill them, they can't kill me, so ABA" i like fire emblem because it doesn't make me solve problems more complicated than "is 12*2 more than 23" now you might say checking for crit is no more complicated than that, but since 99% of enemies will not have a crit chance, checking it is not and should not have to be ingrained in the routine of things you do when observing the enemy forces. it will just blindside you outta nowhere sometimes. i think what i'm saying is that i'm completely fine with any enemy having the possibility of a crit, but i want the game to make it incredibly obvious when that's the case like they do with effective weaponry nowadays
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Apr 25, 2021 12:00
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I think enemies with Killer weapons in Fates are highlighted the same way ones with effective weapons are, idk if 3H dies that too though.
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Apr 25, 2021 12:30
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speaking of crits though! 6 made me do something yesterday that i very rarely do: i had set up my formation in chapter 4 in a really stupid way where clarine had a lot of trouble recruiting herself and i was about to get assaulted by (and almost certainly lose someone to) rutger. I really didn't feel like resetting to clean up the whole mess, so after only a bit of hesitation i ritually sacrificed wolt on the altar of rutger to get out of that mess. RIP wolt, you will be missed. now i kind of want to use Dorothy to make up for reducing the total archer count of my squad though.
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Apr 25, 2021 12:33
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Tbh Wolt martyring himself sounds more useful than any use I’ve ever gotten out of him in the five chapter stretch where he’s force deployed. RIP Wolt, thank god someone like Deke didn’t have to bite it or OP had to lose 20 minutes of his IRL life.
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Apr 25, 2021 13:06
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Amppelix posted:but i don't want to get crit and lose
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Apr 25, 2021 13:35
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I don't want enemies and the players to have different rules for how combat works, I just want to remove what I feel is a pointless bit of randomness that could be replaced with a more interesting deterministic system (I don't know what though). I don't think anyone sees a 10% hit rate and thinks of it any differently than a 20% hit rate, they may as well be the same; same for an 80% hit and a 90% hit, it's guaranteed as far as I am concerned. Everyone probably has different thresholds for what they consider to be a miss/coinflip/surething, but I feel like there is some way to turn it into a deterministic system without losing the current feel of things. Critical is more complicated because they are almost always low chance things, but if crits got limited to special circumstances (skill activation, effective weapons) I wouldn't mind so much. I haven't played Fates, so I didn't know about this, but look at this poo poo (when hit > 50 (Is This Real?)): (Hit rate × 100) + (40 / 3) × Hit rate × sin((0.02(Hit rate) − 1) × 180) They're just throwing stuff at a wall trying to find the right feel for the RNG and I feel like they should Gordin Knot this thing and replace it. This thought mostly came about while watching dondon151's FE7 LTC, where he rigs a lot of hits/criticals/misses. Since he could start over as much as needed to get the RNG normally, there isn't a good argument against rigging things since it just saves time. Basically every LTCer has their own thresholds for what they're willing to roll for and it feels sad they put in so much effort but still go "Well I am willing to rig any crit above a 10% and any hit above a 50%". The dude is also good at normal RTA speedrunning so it's not like he can't handle dealing with the RNG as-is, either.
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Apr 25, 2021 15:30
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oh now i remember why Dorothy looks so bad: she joins in the same chapter as Sue, who at base has better or equal stats than her in all areas, and also happens to have a horse. i know they're doing the thing in this game, like shadow dragon, where a large amount of the units you get are "filler" replacements for deaths and are kinda supposed to be bad but they could at least give her the courtesy of not being so thoroughly outclassed in the same chapter!
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Apr 25, 2021 15:34
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Captain Cappy posted:I don't want enemies and the players to have different rules for how combat works, I just want to remove what I feel is a pointless bit of randomness that could be replaced with a more interesting deterministic system (I don't know what though). I don't think anyone sees a 10% hit rate and thinks of it any differently than a 20% hit rate, they may as well be the same; same for an 80% hit and a 90% hit, it's guaranteed as far as I am concerned. Everyone probably has different thresholds for what they consider to be a miss/coinflip/surething, but I feel like there is some way to turn it into a deterministic system without losing the current feel of things. Critical is more complicated because they are almost always low chance things, but if crits got limited to special circumstances (skill activation, effective weapons) I wouldn't mind so much. Purely deterministic systems suck because they're pretty trivially solved and turn the game into a really simple puzzle game. That's not really what I want in these game and why I dislike Advanced Wars for instance which is almost purely deterministic. Games, especially games with replayability, live or die based on variance. Zore fucked around with this message at 15:41 on Apr 25, 2021 |
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Apr 25, 2021 15:39
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Endorph posted:but checking for crit chance is also extremely simple, its the same as checking how much damage an enemy would do and is on the same menu. tbis isnt always the case when you factor in movement skills the enemy can use on their turn. im sure you could still math out the crit chance by pouring over the stat screens but, from my casual player perspective, thats a lot more annoying to do than mathing out how much damage they will do. and its not very fun either which is the bigger issue imo. put me on team either remove enemy crit chances aside from designated Threats like swordmasters, berserkers, anyone with a killer weapon, etc or at least leave them in higher difficulties only
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Apr 25, 2021 15:42
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Zore posted:Purely deterministic systems suck because they're pretty trivially solved and turn the game into a really simple puzzle game. Chess, a really simple puzzle game, trivially solved by my galaxy brain.
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Apr 25, 2021 15:48
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Captain Cappy posted:Chess, a really simple puzzle game, trivially solved by my galaxy brain. Chess has an opponent providing the variance. Fire Emblem AI would need to like actually exist to provide the same experience instead of every map having enemies that react in exactly the same way based on triggers or movements. Like enemy movement is already deterministic in these games. The equivalent would be playing chess against an AI that always makes the same moves which yeah would be trivially easy to solve
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Apr 25, 2021 15:51
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You know what I really want, though? A new Fire Emblem game. Or at least a fanhack that does any interesting stuff, mechanically speaking.
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Apr 25, 2021 16:29
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^^ god same. intsys please, it's been two years, i need my fire emblem hit i wouldn't want hitrates gone either, but: fire emblem has lots of ways it provides variance to playthroughs besides random battle outcomes. what units you decide to use (or even manage to recruit), what units turn out especially well/poorly that time, what items you've acquired and how you decide to use them, etc.
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Apr 25, 2021 16:30
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You can trivially check for crits, yes. That doesn't mean that it's not completely maddening when you Nat 1 on a 5% crit chance. 3H has it right with rewind as an expendable resource. You can play an aggressive playstyle and gamble against crits and if you lose, you're punished with 1/8th of a game over.
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Apr 25, 2021 16:36
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Zore posted:Chess has an opponent providing the variance. Fire Emblem AI would need to like actually exist to provide the same experience instead of every map having enemies that react in exactly the same way based on triggers or movements. There's ~30 maps per game, dozens of units, units have a dozen stats, there are numerous items, tons of enemy units, etc. If you've somehow memorized all of that information, memorized the right moves to make, and can replay the game making all the right moves, then I doubt the variance from hit rates is going to challenge you. It sounds like you're speedrunning at that point and would already have some contingincies in place in case of bad RNG. If RNG needs to be applied for replayability then it would better in the other forms it already appears e.g. growth rates and randomized enemy stats.
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Apr 25, 2021 16:38
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i would stop playing these games completely if they went to a purely deterministic system, that is an absolute dogshit idea and proof that goons should never be game designers
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Apr 25, 2021 16:42
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Maybe you should play a real tactical game if you don't care about the stories or characters, it would probably be more interesting for you.
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Apr 25, 2021 16:44
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Captain Cappy posted:Maybe you should play a real tactical game if you don't care about the stories or characters, it would probably be more interesting for you.
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Apr 25, 2021 16:45
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It's strange to see so many people posting about some sort of hypothetical deterministic Fire Emblem game when we already have an idea of what that looks like. Hall of Forms is up in FE:Heroes right now. Go play that if you want to know what deterministic Fire Emblem really looks like.
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Apr 25, 2021 16:52
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i havent played fe heroes in a while but i assume its bad because its in fe heroes
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Apr 25, 2021 16:55
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Captain Cappy posted:I don't want enemies and the players to have different rules for how combat works, I just want to remove what I feel is a pointless bit of randomness that could be replaced with a more interesting deterministic system (I don't know what though). I don't think anyone sees a 10% hit rate and thinks of it any differently than a 20% hit rate, they may as well be the same; same for an 80% hit and a 90% hit, it's guaranteed as far as I am concerned. This is the reason for this Captain Cappy posted:
They are literally pandering to your inability to understand probability. The only sure things are 100% and 0%.
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Apr 25, 2021 17:18
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Can't enemies in most fire emblems not realistically crit player units because of the luck Stat being higher on player units?
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Apr 25, 2021 18:04
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It's pretty rare for non-Sword Master enemies or enemies without Killing Edges/Thunder to have non-zero critical against you; the only time that it comes up otherwise is if you're using units with atrocious luck stats like Raven or Arthur. There's lots of ways to work around it though (using high luck units, bringing support partners nearby, bringing someone tanky enough to tank it), so it's not a big deal really.
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Apr 25, 2021 18:21
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The Shortest Path posted:Can't enemies in most fire emblems not realistically crit player units because of the luck Stat being higher on player units? In Fates, once you start facing enemies in classes with innate crit bonuses, it's fairly common to face listed crit chance if you’re not using a stone, a bronze weapon, or Siegfried. That’s one of the reasons that forged bronzes are so valuable.
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Apr 25, 2021 18:32
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