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Serephina posted:I was using hyperbole, as a counterexample to your equally absurd example of slamming down a %-to-all-other-pops booster on small worlds. The conversation ended a few pages back with "I guess if you have a 40 pop world not at 100% habit, then sure gene clinics are good". Which is both true and a very common scenario. Is it true though? You get 1.25% job output to 40 pops, but some of those pops are medical workers who get nothing from job output, administrators who only get a bit of extra unity, possibly an enforcer, and maybe some other jobs that don't get much from job output. But let's say the planet has a bit more pops, and 40 pops worling jobs that get the full benefit from increased job output. Is that half a pop of benefit? No, because even early game you probably have a +20% from tech, some more from governor skill, stability, etc. But maybe you have a planet with 70 pops or whatever is necessary to get half of a pops output from the habitability boost. Is the lesser pop upkeep and pop growth worth the other half? I don't think so, especially since the population is high enough you probably don't have the capacity for max growth anymore. Still worth it if you need them for amenities, of course. Though some planets like foundry planets might have no worker jobs these days so you could just build a holo theatre and disable one entertainer job.
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May 3, 2021 08:29
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Cease to Hope posted:amenities is a weird name for the reason you have people whose job is paperwork I don't view clerks as just doing paperwork, that's bureaucrats. Clerks do all kinds of basic trade jobs. Some of that is going to be office work, but it also includes storefronts, shopping districts, restaurants, etc. That's where amenities come from. The clerk jobs that come with Housing Districts provide all of the basic services that you expect to see in large cities, not just the business of matching people with places to live but also all of the services that make a city worth living in.
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May 3, 2021 08:50
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QuarkJets posted:I don't view clerks as just doing paperwork, that's bureaucrats. Clerks do all kinds of basic trade jobs. Some of that is going to be office work, but it also includes storefronts, shopping districts, restaurants, etc. That's where amenities come from. The clerk jobs that come with Housing Districts provide all of the basic services that you expect to see in large cities, not just the business of matching people with places to live but also all of the services that make a city worth living in.
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May 3, 2021 09:50
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Staltran posted:Is it true though? You get 1.25% job output to 40 pops, but some of those pops are medical workers who get nothing from job output, administrators who only get a bit of extra unity, possibly an enforcer, and maybe some other jobs that don't get much from job output. But let's say the planet has a bit more pops, and 40 pops worling jobs that get the full benefit from increased job output. Is that half a pop of benefit? No, because even early game you probably have a +20% from tech, some more from governor skill, stability, etc. Important point here in the calculations - the way the bonus percentages work in stellaris are additive rather than multiplicative (that is, for a base job production of X a +20% bonus always gives you 0.2X more, regardless of other bonuses and maluses). You can see this very easily by turning, say, Farming spec on for a planet and seeing that you always get +1.5 food per worker for that rather than +25%. I like Gene Clinics for flavour reasons but the places where they're optimal are going to be super narrow. Mod idea (if possible): change the penalties for low habitability to a sigmoid.
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May 3, 2021 10:05
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For the sake of flogging this horse, the 1.25% bonus is actually a reduction of a negative bonus, ie reducing an additive penalty. Which makes it stronger than the number seems. Also it reduces pop upkeeps, which can be calculated as a flat number (typically something like .5 CG and 1 amenity for 40 pops, iirc). I think a good rule of thumb would be "After you have an upgraded holotheatre1, but need more amenities, build a gene clinic rather than the 2nd holo or using clerks" 1methotrexate, according to Firefox's autocorrect.
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May 3, 2021 11:21
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How long do they typically take to release patches for this? Just wondering when 3.0.3 will be out officially.
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May 3, 2021 13:03
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lemonadesweetheart posted:How long do they typically take to release patches for this? Just wondering when 3.0.3 will be out officially. I would expect to see it in the next week or so.
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May 3, 2021 13:07
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Serephina posted:Where you playing on Ensign (or scaling difficulty?). Currently the AI is consistently borking its own economy on the lower difficulty settings, things tend to crash a hundred years in or so. Captain or Commodore, I can't quite remember off the top of my head. This would track though. My numbers are ballooning in some interesting ways, but that wouldn't account for the fleets im seeing in opposition. Oh well. It lets me live out the fantasy of this empire anyway.
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May 3, 2021 13:29
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Aethernet posted:I absolutely agree that having clerks and bureaucrats is silly. Removing clerks and giving bureaucrats +trade to represent them furnishing dachas would be great. This is a great idea.
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May 3, 2021 13:45
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Feels like my resource numbers are all over the place these days, like I went from +60 energy to -2, within a few months after turning on the energy edict. Not sure why. First time playing a decadent race, might be that? Ofc I am surrounded by robots and hive minds so I can’t even capture any slaves lmao.
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May 3, 2021 13:47
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Serephina posted:For the sake of flogging this horse, the 1.25% bonus is actually a reduction of a negative bonus, ie reducing an additive penalty. Which makes it stronger than the number seems. Also it reduces pop upkeeps, which can be calculated as a flat number (typically something like .5 CG and 1 amenity for 40 pops, iirc). Only if the penalty is bigger than any tech/trait/tradition/civic/stability etc bonuses combined. 4 entertainers is 40 amenities, 4 administrators another 32, System-Capital complex is +12. If you're using more than 84 amenities you should probably get a galactic stock exchange for the +20% trade if you have that many pops instead of a gene clinic. If you don't have all that many pops on the planet but use that many amenities because it's 20% habitability... uh, why are you stuffing a 20% planet full of pops instead of letting them resettle?
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May 3, 2021 14:17
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Serephina posted:For the sake of flogging this horse, the 1.25% bonus is actually a reduction of a negative bonus, ie reducing an additive penalty. Which makes it stronger than the number seems. Also it reduces pop upkeeps, which can be calculated as a flat number (typically something like .5 CG and 1 amenity for 40 pops, iirc). Not to try and restart the debate but I always take the flesh is weak as my second ascension perk so my two guaranteed habitables jump straight to 100% hab super early. By the time any other planets I have found and colonized start approaching 40+ pops I seem to either have another +20% hab from techs or full synth ascension. Your numbers and the reasoning behind them make perfect sense though. Its probably just me and tendency to play Technocracy/Meritocracy paired with Intelligent and Natural Engineers.
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May 3, 2021 14:18
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it's probably still suboptimal but gene ascension feels really close to synth lately
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May 3, 2021 14:21
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a fatguy baldspot posted:Feels like my resource numbers are all over the place these days, like I went from +60 energy to -2, within a few months after turning on the energy edict. Not sure why. First time playing a decadent race, might be that? Ofc I am surrounded by robots and hive minds so I can’t even capture any slaves lmao. My gut tells me this is happening because pops are migrating to other planets constantly. I don't know what the cooldown on a pop choosing to auto migrate is, but my Voidborne pops are doing it regularly and it makes my bank balance freak out as outputs lurch to and fro.
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May 3, 2021 14:29
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Dirk the Average posted:Amenities can be good, and it's great that there's flavor for things like duelists and temples and other such things. The problem is that amenities are either incredibly potent or not that great, depending on how many amenities you need. This winds up with some jobs just not being worth using unless you need their amenities. The net result is a lot of micro for the player, and a lot of wasted potential for the AI. A setting that automates the feathering of amenities would go a long way towards improving planet management for AI controlled colonies and sectors.
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May 3, 2021 14:29
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I'm actually enjoying this chat as it's all positive debate imo. It also shows a bit how other people play which is always interesting. I usually do bio ascension, but I like to hold off on it as late as possible as I hate arresting my tech to do the modifications even if it's probably optimal. As a result, I often end up with a huge pile of mediocre worlds with large populations; my last game I experimented with an -amenities racial trait so I would be forced to buy more entertainers, which where then swapped to duelists. Turns out that if you also swap administrators for nobles, you can totally need more than 2 upgraded holotheatres1 in your big worlds. And then I had a shortage of non-indentured servants who where able to work entertainer jobs. So despite being a vocal critic of the old gene clinics, I got to see the new ones in action and felt they where worth. The above scenario may sound narrow, but it's almost how I play all my games, so! 1clotheshorses, according to Firefox autocorrect.
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May 3, 2021 14:36
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Why is there not a Habitat designation for hydroponics 
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May 3, 2021 14:41
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Picture the habitat. Spinning silently in space, empty. Then suddenly, a great fwoosh flows through the ancient circuits, the music turns on. Then lights, and suddenly the robots begin to stir to life once more. “A happy day citizen! You have activated the bioreactor, with this energy we shall craft your Perfect Shell (tm). Soon you will be free.” The volume of the music rises, in time with the fire, and the scientist’s life burns away. The empty science vessel floats in space, silent. The habitat’s systems power down, and the synth mourns the engineers decision to place the bioreactor in the entry bay to maximize efficiency, then powers down, alone. This is why they don’t allow hydroponics habitats anymore. Galactic ordinance 579 Anias fucked around with this message at 14:50 on May 3, 2021 |
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May 3, 2021 14:48
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Gives a whole new meaning to why we now call it a "Leisure" station. Don't worry - it's not like that other place.
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May 3, 2021 15:03
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Sorry for misunderstanding, I'm too used to previous patches where people would say constantly to build gene clinics first. I think by the time someone has 40+ pops on a non-100% habitability colony, they'll usually have a solution to habitability. That's like 50 years into the game! There are exceptions, like the lost colony origin, or the doomsday origin (if playing honestly). In those cases, you might build gene clinics?? Although the worse your amenities situation, the more you would like your amenities generation to be efficient. It's why everyone dislikes maintenance drones -- 5 amenities per job is very little. Maybe it's ok if you consider it to be a Frankenstein combination of a job. Like, at max pop bonus, it assembles ~0.4 pop growth/job, which is like 1/5 a roboticist job. It makes 5 amenities, which is like 1/4 an entertainer job. And it increases non-robot production by +1.25%, which is like #pops/80 of an average job on the planet. So at like 44 pops it's a normal job. As a side note-- the internal name for gene clinicians is called 'healthcare'. Got something to say about healthcare, PDX?
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May 3, 2021 15:27
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it's a hospital, it's just a gene hospital because that's more futuristic
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May 3, 2021 15:34
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I’ve always used gene clinics tbh. Theyve always been good
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May 3, 2021 15:34
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gonna fuckin build some laser factories and quantum mines
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May 3, 2021 15:35
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Got myself in a weird situation. Declared war on a guy for his ringworld, and some tiny guy has floated a transport through my orbital bombardment and occupied it. I... don't appear to have any method to deal with this? I can't declare war on the guy because I have no CB, and all the ways to create a CB with him are greyed out because I'm currently at war. This seems dumb.
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May 3, 2021 15:37
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Wilekat posted:Got myself in a weird situation. Declared war on a guy for his ringworld, and some tiny guy has floated a transport through my orbital bombardment and occupied it. I... don't appear to have any method to deal with this? I can't declare war on the guy because I have no CB, and all the ways to create a CB with him are greyed out because I'm currently at war.
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May 3, 2021 15:48
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Splicer posted:Make a claim on a single one of his planets? I think you can declare rivalry which will trigger a CB too. Claim worked! Thanks. Couldn't declare Rival because they're Pathetic/Pathetic/Pathetic. Not being able to tell someone to Get To gently caress for sniping your war target is really awkward. Turning their homeworld to glass in retaliation does seem appropriate though.
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May 3, 2021 15:58
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the ai did this constantly to me in my recent determined exterminators game, the joke's on them though since i only wanted the star itself. 
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May 3, 2021 16:09
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My ringworld start guys just found a ruined ringworld. They didn't have anything special to say. Kind of disappointed.
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May 3, 2021 16:14
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Splicer posted:My ringworld start guys just found a ruined ringworld. They didn't have anything special to say. Kind of disappointed. My casual game had a ringworld start, found a ruined ringworld, and the cybrex. My neighbors also have a ringworld start, and a ruined ringworld. Our shared neighbors are remnants of a lithoid empire. We're all blaming the original rocks for our broken homes. It's pretty great honestly. Definitely agree that it was sad the game didn't realize how silly this all was with some updated dialogue though I realize you have to know it's going to happen to write the 1% dialogue and maybe that doesn't make it in favor of The Worm Which is Always The Best Event.
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May 3, 2021 16:19
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Anias posted:My casual game has a ringworld start, found a ruined ringworld, and the cybrex. My neighbors also have a ringworld start, and a ruined ringworld. Our shared neighbors are remnants of a lithoid empire. We're all blaming the original rocks for our broken homes. It's pretty great honestly. Definitely agree that it was sad the game didn't realize how silly this all was with some updated dialogue though I realize you have to know it's going to happen to write the 1% dialogue and maybe that doesn't make it in favor of The Worm Which is Always The Best Event. the intruder is just a mis-aimed meteor colony ship
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May 3, 2021 16:20
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Sloober posted:the intruder is just a mis-aimed meteor colony ship They failed -twice- and disavowed this other colony of nice rocks.
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May 3, 2021 16:25
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How do you abandon a planet? I conquered a bunch of stuff I don't want to keep but I can't figure out how to get rid of it.
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May 3, 2021 16:48
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Flakey posted:How do you abandon a planet? I conquered a bunch of stuff I don't want to keep but I can't figure out how to get rid of it. transfer the pops off. there's an influence cost on top of the usual cost to transfer pops. you can dodge it by having the pops move away on their own (lock all the jobs btw), or purging the last one, though.
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May 3, 2021 16:52
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Flakey posted:How do you abandon a planet? I conquered a bunch of stuff I don't want to keep but I can't figure out how to get rid of it. Empty it out - build a transfer hub or w/e it's called that helps migration in the outpost, and then turn off all the jobs.
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May 3, 2021 16:54
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btw unless the space is absolutely indefensible or you're really super worried about sprawl cap, it's always worth leaving one loser on a planet with a robot lab or clone vat everyone's frontier should just be endless lonely horatios. or robohoratios i guess
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May 3, 2021 16:56
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pop builder buildings are very silly but as long as they exist and are one per planet, it's ICS time
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May 3, 2021 17:00
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Cease to Hope posted:I would expect to see it in the next week or so. I'd be shocked to see an official patch released in the next week or two. They've stated they intend to roll out additional changes to the beta patch, and stuff like changes to economic AI are undergoing internal testing but not in the public beta yet.
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May 3, 2021 17:05
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Anyone have good tips on the endgame? I can roll through the whole game being a cool mega empire and the other empires couldn't hold a candle to anyone I play, but then the crisis rolls up and I get trashed. Is it fleet composition? Do I just need to Make More sooner? I tend to use the auto generated ship designs. It's becoming a bit of a trial to utterly destroy the galaxy as Determined Exterminators only to have the fallen empire wake up and do to me what I've been doing to everyone else. Just let me Be the Crisis in peace!
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May 3, 2021 17:12
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Thanks peeps. The reason I wanted to get rid of some stuff was that after I'd purged everyone (as a machine hive-mind determined exterminator) and the war ended, my energy income went from ok to -350 and I'm not sure how to quickly fix that other than just getting rid of the planets, which it turns out won't be quick at all.
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May 3, 2021 17:13
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oh, i thought that stuff was planned for a later patch. i like the Dick growth curve (  ) but pop builder buildings are silly and detract from the game i think. they make every stupid useless planet too useful and they're a bunch of dumb repetition to set up.Flakey posted:Thanks peeps. The reason I wanted to get rid of some stuff was that after I'd purged everyone (as a machine hive-mind determined exterminator) and the war ended, my energy income went from ok to -350 and I'm not sure how to quickly fix that other than just getting rid of the planets, which it turns out won't be quick at all. demolish all the useless poo poo including the districts, build a non-upgraded pop builder building and nothing else, turn off every job but assembler. your three assemblers will sit there making new pops for a trivial cost, and the new pops will migrate to one of your stacked lab/alloy/energy planets. this is, AFAICT, just the way you play machine civs now. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 17:17 on May 3, 2021 |
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May 3, 2021 17:13
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