|
That Snoke is trying to snuff out Luke and Rey for being Antichrists does not make him a ‘good guy’. He is merely trying to snuff out Luke and Rey. And that basic fact makes Snoke distinct from Palpatine, who (in)famously tries to recruit Luke and Rey for the very reason Snoke wants to kill them. The entire point of Episode 6 and Episode 9 is that Palpatine wants Luke and Rey to win and save their friends. He wants them to take over the galaxy because they aren’t Christians. As with Hux, Satan doesn’t care who wins the war so long as God loses. Snoke is not actually threatened by the New Republic at all, and only attacks them to get at the Resistance. And he's obsessed with destroying the Resistance because it's literally a Luke cult working to install Luke as the galaxy’s new leader.
|
#
?
May 6, 2021 21:17
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 01:12 |
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:That Snoke is trying to snuff out Luke and Rey for being Antichrists does not make him a ‘good guy’. He is merely trying to snuff out Luke and Rey. Okay I'm just gonna ask, are you going a bit by taking the nonsense scenario and incoherent plotting of the ST and following through their on implications to what a galaxy where this insanely stupid poo poo is happening would actually look like? Because actually imagining there's this huge popular political movement of communists who are really into this hideously grotesque and obviously evil lich guy called 'Supreme Leader Snoke' is pretty funny
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2021 21:58
|
|
|
Are we really going to doubt the ability of hideously grotesque and obviously evil lich guy conmen to amass popular followings and turn them into political movements in this day and age?
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2021 22:15
|
|
|
The United States posted:Are we really going to doubt the ability of hideously grotesque and obviously evil lich guy conmen to amass popular followings and turn them into political movements in this day and age? Those people also being anti-Sheev anti-fascists who support the First Order as a left party, thats a bridge too far for me
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2021 22:19
|
|
|
multijoe posted:Those people also being anti-Sheev anti-fascists who support the First Order as a left party, thats a bridge too far for me
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2021 22:32
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:That Snoke is trying to snuff out Luke and Rey for being Antichrists does not make him a ‘good guy’. He is merely trying to snuff out Luke and Rey.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2021 23:02
|
|
|
Somehow we've found a poster worse than cease to hope lmao
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2021 23:10
|
|
|
I think Snokes are like dogs and just sort of do things arbitrarily.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2021 23:19
|
|
|
SMG's reading seems as ridiculous as it does mostly because its obvious the powers-that-be at Disney would never set out to tell such a story. The ST is such a hodgepodge of different ideas (whose integration clearly was never thought through) that their reading is, however astonishingly, plausible.multijoe posted:Those people also being anti-Sheev anti-fascists who support the First Order as a left party, thats a bridge too far for me Sheev was very pro-evil and pro-his Empire, and he was hated to the point where he was overthrown in a full scale rebellion. Snoke isn't so much pro-anything so much as anti-Luke, anti-Leia, and anti-Resistance. And instead of being threatened by a dangerous rebellion, he has his foes on the ropes because no one is willing to join their cause. Even anti-war DJ thinks they're the smarter choice! So whatever ideology Snoke has is anti-Jedi, anti-monarchist, and has the approval of the same galaxy that killed Palpatine. What could it be? Vaderism Communism? Disestablishment Democrat? Polytheist Sortitionist? The thing to notice is how any answer is hilarious. Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 00:08 on May 7, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 6, 2021 23:22
|
|
|
Timeless Appeal posted:Honey don't try to make some silly argument that I'm misconstruing who you think the bad guy is because you're trying to prove that Snoke--the mysterious force wielding charlatan who warps a young man into becoming a Fascist murder knight--is somehow not a parallel to Palpatine by positing different cults that are indeed not literally in the film. Snoke resembles Palpatine in some ways - like by sitting in a large chair and having guards with red hats. However, he is a different character, with different thoughts, feelings, motivations, etc. You need to be careful. Like, the entire plot of Episodes 7 and 8 is Leia calling upon Luke to appear as a messianic hero who will restore the Jedi Order. Snoke is openly acting to prevent that. How can you skip what the characters all do and say? Also Kylo Ren isn't a fascist. multijoe posted:Okay I'm just gonna ask, are you going a bit by taking the nonsense scenario and incoherent plotting of the ST and following through their on implications to what a galaxy where this insanely stupid poo poo is happening would actually look like? Because actually imagining there's this huge popular political movement of communists who are really into this hideously grotesque and obviously evil lich guy called 'Supreme Leader Snoke' is pretty funny The films explain that Supreme Leader Snoke is insanely popular.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 01:21
|
|
|
Snoke tries to destroy the Jedi and Palpatine tries to destroy the Jedi. Palpatine was just into politics while Snoke was more into disco.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 05:25
|
|
|
Snoke was also big BIG rear end HOLOGRAMS.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 05:56
|
|
|
Snoke Mark 1 was a giant pallid Luke hand with a face on it that would scuttle around the place and give salient political commentary that everyone was too disgusted to pay attention to.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 10:10
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 12:01
|
|
|
Timeless Appeal posted:Honey don't try to make some silly argument that I'm misconstruing who you think the bad guy is because you're trying to prove that Snoke--the mysterious force wielding charlatan who warps a young man into becoming a Fascist murder knight--is somehow not a parallel to Palpatine by positing different cults that are indeed not literally in the film. Why are you writing like this?
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 13:04
|
|
|
Snoke wasn't 100% clear on what the Republic even was, Hux eventually had to say "OK, the Resistance is supported by the government. The government is called the Republic. We are going to blow the Republic up. That is to say, we are going to blow up the government." and then Snoke was like "excellent, and then the Resistance will be easy pickings"
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 13:29
|
|
|
Gonz posted:Snoke was also big BIG rear end HOLOGRAMS. I was so disappointed he wasn't a big monster. Felt like a cheat since holograms are universally blue and static-y in Star Wars.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 13:57
|
|
|
Schwarzwald posted:SMG's reading seems as ridiculous as it does mostly because its obvious the powers-that-be at Disney would never set out to tell such a story. There's actually a very simple explanation: in keeping with the OT, the ST is about media from roughly 40 years ago. So: the Cold War. Why not make the baddies nefarious Soviets? The films include nods to Red Dawn, Apocalypse Now, James Bond, etc. So tensions rise between the two sides who teamed up to kill However, ST is a Cold War narrative without the nuclear detente. Like, it's well-known that the original ending of Force Awakens would reveal that both sides have superweapons - but this plot point was eliminated relatively late in production. So you have a very different Cold War story where the Snoviets (Snokey Soviets) take over the Galaxy entirely unopposed, mainly through democratic elections, and nobody's upset. Leia tries to rationalize this as the entire population of the galaxy being too afraid to vote for her, but that's obvious nonsense.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 14:16
|
|
|
I mean Mussolini's descendants still get into politics today so I can understand Leia's frustration, being Darth Vader's kid should make her a shoe-in.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 14:43
|
|
|
It'd be a bit easier to understand that Snoke is a Soviet if they just referred to the conflict as a Cold War. https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Cold_War Oh hey it turns out that the entire conflict between New Republic and First Order is canonically The Cold War.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 15:29
|
|
|
So snoke and the FO are the good guys ? Ok that makes more sense
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 15:34
|
|
|
I dont think an army of zealots following a wizard maps that well to dry faceless soviet gerontocracy
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 15:53
|
|
|
fatherboxx posted:I dont think an army of zealots following a wizard maps that well to dry faceless soviet gerontocracy Well, that's why you're not in charge of Disney Star Wars. On paper, the ST presents a fantasy scenario where the Soviet Union was secretly the puppet of a satanic nazi conspiracy - so the reveal of the army of Spooky Skeleton Supersoldiers 'should be' a twist. However, the army of Spooky Skeleton Supersoldiers is revealed in literally the very first shot of the first movie.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 15:59
|
|
|
Edit: nvm
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 16:56
|
|
|
fatherboxx posted:I dont think an army of zealots following a wizard maps that well to dry faceless soviet gerontocracy Rasputin was a wizard (in hellboy comics at least)
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 19:18
|
|
|
ruddiger posted:Rasputin was a wizard (in hellboy comics at least) he was a great conman it's a good example to use against Christians when talking about Jesus
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 20:14
|
|
|
Grandpa Palpatine posted:he was a great conman Well, I'm curious. How so?
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2021 07:35
|
|
|
Just watched RotS last night, capping off the PT. They are as bad as I remembered, though they serve to make me enjoy my OLED and Monitor Audios even more, which was nice. I think Clones might be the worst, but really they are all dreadful. Still worse than the ST, even though those are overall quite poor, too. One thing I never understood is exactly what the Jedi think Anakin is supposed to do, all going well. Obi Wan keeps banging on about how Anakin is supposed to bring "balance to the force", and in his mind that seems to mean destroying the Sith. But wouldn't a "balanced" Force mean the dark and light sides co-existing, with neither side overpowering the other? I'm sure I'm not the first person to wonder this. My initial thought is that a balanced Force is meant to mean just what I said, and Anakin helps the dark side come more into balance by joining and strengthening it, but Obi Wan embodies the arrogance of the Jedi by simply construing the prophecy as meaning the light side is the best and the Jedi are perfect and right, and so bringing balance must somehow mean only the light side survives. But then in the process of becoming Vader, Anakin weakens the Jedi to the point that they are almost all wiped out; all that's happened is a reversal of fortune and a state of continuing unbalance. It's almost as if things weren't that well thought through.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2021 12:11
|
|
|
OneSizeFitsAll posted:Just watched RotS last night, capping off the PT. They are as bad as I remembered, though they serve to make me enjoy my OLED and Monitor Audios even more, which was nice. I think Clones might be the worst, but really they are all dreadful. Still worse than the ST, even though those are overall quite poor, too. “Man, this is the worst movie ever. Also, I didn’t understand the basic concepts?”
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2021 12:25
|
|
|
Blood Boils posted:Well, I'm curious. How so? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ejn4YBOOntM
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2021 12:31
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:“Man, this is the worst movie ever. Judging by your posts, you are the last person I would take any lecture from. Poorly conveyed concepts support rather than contradict the view of them being bad, but even so the wretchedly hilarious dialogue, nonsensical storylines and boring action with zero emotional content are quite enough on their own.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2021 12:40
|
|
|
OneSizeFitsAll posted:Poorly conveyed concepts support rather than contradict the view of them being bad, but even so the wretchedly hilarious dialogue, nonsensical storylines and boring action with zero emotional content are quite enough on their own. Right, you think the movies are bad and bad and not good. That’s established. The issue here is that you have apparently watched at least nine Star Wars movies and still haven’t figured out what “good” and “evil” are. And I don’t think that’s on the movies.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2021 12:52
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:Right, you think the movies are bad and bad and not good. That’s established. No, that is quite clear. What is not clear is how the concept of balance of these things is meant to work in the Jedi's minds, given they think the Sith need to be destroyed. The movies do not convey this very well, so it's at least a partly on them. Sure, it's possible I have been remiss in my reading and, hey, I haven't thought at extreme length about it - hence posting to see if someone might enlighten me (if, indeed, there is anything to enlighten me on). Wasn't looking for a haughty post suggesting I can't arrive at the obvious conclusion that the PT is terrible in the meantime, but coming from someone who posts endless straw-grasping dissertations about a largely bad nonology, I am not particularly surprised. OneSizeFitsAll fucked around with this message at 13:15 on May 8, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 8, 2021 13:10
|
|
|
OneSizeFitsAll posted:
I have no doubt. Here's a tip: there is no light side (It's never mentioned even off handedly in the films)
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2021 13:34
|
|
|
i believe the light side is first mentioned in TFA. otherwise, yes, it was purely an EU creation and has poisoned how people perceive star wars for years since. there is the force and the perverse unbalancing of it - the dark side. to use the common analogy, you don't say that a little bit of cancer in a healthy body is balance. see also grey jedi, where fans want to believe that shooting lightning at people is a-okay if you have good intentions. reminder: onesizefitsall is the guy who complained about watching star wars with his children lmao
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2021 13:38
|
|
|
In that case, as they might not be as clouded by anger and video game logic that is preventing them from basic engagement with the films, try asking your child for a thematic analysis.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2021 13:45
|
|
|
The Jedi in the prequels all understand that everything’s getting worse all the time. What they don’t understand is that, as an institution, they’ve strayed from their mission. It's established in the very first scene of episode 1 that instead of being “guardians of peace and justice” as Obi-Wan remembered them, they have become guardians of the Republic, and that’s not the same thing. So they encounter their messiah, a boy with endless love and pity in his heart, and they make him into nothing more than a powerful enforcer. The Jedi Order is in a position of great power at the heart of galactic government, and every decision it makes in the prequels flows from a desire to preserve that authority. Why do the Jedi operate as secret agents (and armed “negotiators”) on the orders of the Chancellor alone? Apparently, that seems to them like the best way to maintain the status quo. Why don't they go free other slaves on Tatooine? Well, that would cause political problems between the Republic and the Hutts. Why do the Jedi cover up the real origins of the clone army? To admit that they didn’t know what was going on would be to tell the whole galaxy how weak they’ve become. Why do they attempt a coup? They have information that the Chancellor is a religious enemy of theirs, and they suspect him of treason—but they can’t prove it, so they have to take matters into their own hands. At every step, you could say the decisions the Order makes are right, or if not, then they’re the least bad option they have. But the pattern is that the Jedi are less concerned with what's good than they are with what looks good, and because of that, they get involved with lies that get deeper and deeper, to the point that their enemies are eventually able to (credibly!) paint them as traitors themselves. Anakin does restore balance to the Force, but he doesn’t even up the score between Jedi and Sith or anything like that. After all, he actually kills all the Sith and not all the Jedi. The Sith are manifestations of “imbalance,” which is really a lack of harmony with the rest of the world. But the Jedi Order no longer has that harmony either, and that's why it gets destroyed.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2021 13:45
|
|
|
Horizon Burning posted:reminder: onesizefitsall is the guy who complained about watching star wars with his children lmao You'd think on a comedy forum people would be able to detect a wry comment, especially after it had subsequently been pointed out, but apparently no. You think what you like. In the real, grown-up world there is a thing called nuance. I really shouldn't have to explain further, but we'll see. Zoran posted:The Jedi in the prequels all understand that everything’s getting worse all the time. What they don’t understand is that, as an institution, they’ve strayed from their mission. It's established in the very first scene of episode 1 that instead of being “guardians of peace and justice” as Obi-Wan remembered them, they have become guardians of the Republic, and that’s not the same thing. Interesting thoughts, thanks. Will digest properly when I get a moment.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2021 13:48
|
|
|
OneSizeFitsAll posted:Judging by your posts, you are the last person I would take any lecture from. Why are you watching the movies and posting here . You clearly dislike Star Wars. I don’t get it. I’m not saying go away I’m just wondering.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2021 13:49
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 01:12 |
|
|
OneSizeFitsAll posted:
You say this at the end of a post thoughtfully critiquing the ideology of the Jedi based on textual evidence... the movies may be better thought through than you're giving them credit for!
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2021 13:56
|
|