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I came across a Reddit thread that ties the concept of annihilation to how the turnstiles work and I gotta say I really like this explanation. https://reddit.com/r/tenet/comments/nb4xll/doesnt_the_concept_of_annihilation_present_a/ To quote the relevant posts: quote:
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May 16, 2021 04:41
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why does Protagonist try to shoot himself lol
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May 16, 2021 05:33
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Its Chocolate posted:why does Protagonist try to shoot himself lol He’s trying to empty the clip so his past self won’t shoot him.
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May 16, 2021 05:41
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gregday posted:He’s trying to empty the clip so his past self won’t shoot him. oh poo poo
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May 16, 2021 05:54
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Its Chocolate posted:no they're both acting like that because both of them are trying to convince the other one that's the time they're from Right: the scene is contrived so that they must act as if only an hour has passed. The narrative point is that there is more truth in this weird mutual performance than in the ‘real’ convoluted time-travel scenario.
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May 16, 2021 12:33
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Sir Kodiak posted:Yes, that works: thank you. I had the same problem as SMG where I couldn't figure out how the gently caress sending gold back in time to spend would work but this makes perfect sense
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May 16, 2021 17:45
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Its Chocolate posted:thank you. I had the same problem as SMG where I couldn't figure out how the gently caress sending gold back in time to spend would work but this makes perfect sense I feel like the problem is that you could mess with the gold by picking it up over and over every day. The solution is he simply doesn’t do that. A lot of this movie is full of things people *could* do that would mess everything up, but everyone is just playing it cool and he just doesn’t ever dig up the gold again to look at it and mess with it.
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May 17, 2021 03:04
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Its Chocolate posted:thank you. I had the same problem as SMG where I couldn't figure out how the gently caress sending gold back in time to spend would work but this makes perfect sense Uh huh? SMG is the one who has been arguing there is no gold issue. Kodiak and I were the ones talking about that.
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May 17, 2021 06:40
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I feel like the bigger gold issue in this movie is they had multiple pivotal scenes revolving around gold bars but they are unrelated gold bars. Not even a thematic or functional link. It feels like such weird film making. Like it just seems like a world where there is a whole lot of gold bars and people concerned about various gold bars.
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May 17, 2021 13:57
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I was a little weirded out when it dawned on me that a significant portion of the movie was going to be about tracking a billionaire's magic bullets through connections to his shady art dealers.
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May 17, 2021 14:46
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The issue with the gold story is not that it’s impossible; but that it simply doesn’t work as the characters say it does. Since it’s not shown at all either, this means that we really have no idea whatsoever about what Sator is doing. How is he funded? How is he receiving these orders? We have a (very limited) understanding of what Sator believes he’s doing - but that’s a very different kettle o’ fish. Same with a lot of stuff: how does the scientist from the future hide the algorithm chunks in nine different nuclear sites, hundreds of years ago? Moreover, why would she do that instead of just, like, melting them? What we’re told doesn’t work, but we’re shown nothing either. There are multiple possibilities, but they’re all vastly weirder than anything the movie gets into - and none of the characters stop to contemplate them. Hence, they’re idiots. Why does Sator use the fitbit? If he believes that, at the moment of his death, the universe instantly will always have been rewritten, then it would already have been rewritten when he made the decision to kill himself - or earlier. The universe would have blinked out of existence before the moment he even contemplated the notion. The fitbit is basically nonfunctional: a diegetic metaphor used by Sator to express his solipsism. So we could say the characters are killing him purely because of badthought. This is underlined by the fact that Kat ‘threatens the universe’ in the exact same way, but with goodthought, and nobody cares. An entire futuristic spy network devoted to annoying some guy for having wrong imagination. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 15:40 on May 17, 2021 |
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May 17, 2021 15:36
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They never say anything like this, but the movie feels like it makes more sense if there is a grand time loop with the algorithm. Like in the year 5000 humans discover 8 cubes that explain time technology and make time technology and are prosperous, then in the year 6000 a woman goes "oh poo poo, what if there was a 9th cube, you could reverse the arrow of time!" then freaks out, realizes the implications of her research, then secretly throws all the things into radiation that is so bad no one can touch until the far past before they were so radioactive. At which point they loop around, inspire the civilization with technology, come to the shocking discovery, then loop around again.
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May 17, 2021 16:31
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:They never say anything like this, but the movie feels like it makes more sense if there is a grand time loop with the algorithm. Like in the year 5000 humans discover 8 cubes that explain time technology and make time technology and are prosperous, then in the year 6000 a woman goes "oh poo poo, what if there was a 9th cube, you could reverse the arrow of time!" then freaks out, realizes the implications of her research, then secretly throws all the things into radiation that is so bad no one can touch until the far past before they were so radioactive. At which point they loop around, inspire the civilization with technology, come to the shocking discovery, then loop around again. Also they realize how far back they have to go since they have to make small changes over time instead of just doing one thing at one point that fixes every problem at once so it begins with the actual Sator Squares from like Roman times being the earliest thing sent from the furthest future to the past to subtly guide events. I got that same impression that the movie makes more sense if it "takes place" over a waaaaaaaaaay longer range of time than what we see in the movie.
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May 17, 2021 17:02
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The "nine parts of the algorithm and he has eight" thing felt like a videogamey setup that they (probably for the best) didn't really do anything with.
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May 17, 2021 17:06
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The fun is that it's not just with the exposition. Protag sees a silver car uncrashing and he's like "oh that is an inverted car". So he tosses the Cube through the window. What exactly is he thinking there? Does he see the silver car as proof that Tenet will 'win' the car chase and, so, he can consequently use it as a time-capsule to send the object to himself in the future? Or does he believe that contact with the inverted car will transfer invertedness to the cube and send it backwards in time, so that the inverted agent can run off into yesterday? We can't really know. But we do know for sure that his plan involves bouncing the case off a backward-driving car's hood, as one does, and hoping Sator doesn't notice anything odd about that. Also, hoping that Sator (who Protag does not yet know is inverted) will release Kat without first checking the case. This is the whole movie!
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May 17, 2021 17:27
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Neo Rasa posted:Also they realize how far back they have to go since they have to make small changes over time instead of just doing one thing at one point that fixes every problem at once so it begins with the actual Sator Squares from like Roman times being the earliest thing sent from the furthest future to the past to subtly guide events. I got that same impression that the movie makes more sense if it "takes place" over a waaaaaaaaaay longer range of time than what we see in the movie. Yeah, even the tenet story alone we know people are going back and forth through the story off screen and many many years into the future and past. Like they raise and entire army at some point off screen and seem to own a boat. And turnstyles are all over the place apparently. It's handwavy, but I feel like not fully explained things like the scientist hiding the algorithm probably also included a whole never to be made movie worth of adventure where there is ten trillion time loops and another set of adventures, far future tenet eventually wins and lets the algorithm get lost to the past. Like bad guys probably DID go back and try to stop her, then good guys went back from that, on and on ten trillion times, all through history. Including but not limited to the movie we saw.
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May 17, 2021 17:27
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The issue with the gold story is not that it’s impossible; but that it simply doesn’t work as the characters say it does. Yes, but as I said, if the gold doesn't work the way they say then all of their actions are stupid and they could have fixed everything trivially but didn't because they don't understand time. That's not very satisfying of a story to me. SuperMechagodzilla posted:But we do know for sure that his plan involves bouncing the case off a backward-driving car's hood, as one does, and hoping Sator doesn't notice anything odd about that. Also, hoping that Sator (who Protag does not yet know is inverted) will release Kat without first checking the case. Yeah okay you have me there lol
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May 17, 2021 18:44
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I just watched this over the weekend, sorry I didn't read the whole thread, so maybe this has been answered. I was really surprised that barely anyone seems to hide the fact that moving backwards through time is a thing. There are lots of times where things are happening in reverse in plain view of a lot of people. Does this ever get a mention in the movie? The rules around needing a gas mask seemed a little weird. During Sator's interrogation of P while he's holding Kat hostage, he takes off his mask, but she has one on. Did I miss something here? Why can he take his mask off? Are there special rooms that don't require the gas mask?
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May 17, 2021 19:09
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Bird in a Blender posted:I just watched this over the weekend, sorry I didn't read the whole thread, so maybe this has been answered. I was really surprised that barely anyone seems to hide the fact that moving backwards through time is a thing. There are lots of times where things are happening in reverse in plain view of a lot of people. Does this ever get a mention in the movie? Nope; there's a quick line about the organization needing to 'clean up' incidents, but that's it. They basically don't care about anything unless some record of it reaches "the future people". But they also insist that the faked jet heist/plane accident/terror attack on one of Sator's main bases won't leave any record, so....
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May 17, 2021 19:19
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Bird in a Blender posted:I just watched this over the weekend, sorry I didn't read the whole thread, so maybe this has been answered. I was really surprised that barely anyone seems to hide the fact that moving backwards through time is a thing. There are lots of times where things are happening in reverse in plain view of a lot of people. Does this ever get a mention in the movie? I don't think tenet is doing the whole men in black coverup. Everything is hidden but not THAT hidden. Like there is a turnstile in a public airport. It's hidden, but not like in an unmarked government lab or something. And the lab coat lady is at least marginally just a random researcher that is just studying this stuff independently without being a specific tenet or future badguy employee and The arms dealer lady didn't know where time bullets came from, but she did seem like she was selling them just kinda around. Like presumably there was always a bunch of time junk laying around. But it seems like the whole future war raining debris back to us thing is just starting to ramp up in our time. as more and more turnstyles get built. The existence isn't common knowledge yet, but the rumors are probably all over the place in general and anyone high up probably already knows some amount about it as a mystery thing. I bet they are like 5 years from time terrorists blowing up a time bomb in times square and everyone finding out. It doesn't seem like the sort of thing that just stays secret forever.
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May 17, 2021 19:30
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Bird in a Blender posted:The rules around needing a gas mask seemed a little weird. During Sator's interrogation of P while he's holding Kat hostage, he takes off his mask, but she has one on. Did I miss something here? Why can he take his mask off? Are there special rooms that don't require the gas mask? I THINK the idea was that this was because he was inverted the whole time which IIRC we learn sort of around that time? It felt weird to me too like even if you are some mastermind of this stuff to do that. The real reason is surely when people are making movies they just need to either commit to having someone wear a mask or just have something with an open/clear face when they want to do dramatic moments or whatever instead of setting up something with masks and then "whelp my charater's gonna talk a lot of poo poo now time to take this off"
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May 17, 2021 19:39
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Blue room has backwards oxygen. Kat is still forward. So she needs oxygen for the opposite reason everyone in every other scene does. Sator has a mask on because he's backwards, and going to go out soon and has already put on his outfit, but he can take it off because he's still in the room and isn't actually using it yet.
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May 17, 2021 19:45
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The blue room having reverse oxygen raises the question of why protagonist was able to go to the blue room in oslo and I feel like the answer is written down on some piece of paper somewhere because to get to that room they have to go to a bunch of rooms with choking atmospheres. And I think you are supposed to assume the backwards oxygen vented with the halide gas. when the freeport refilled with air after the "fire". Since it feels like a lot of movie work to make a premise there is two unrelated unbreathable gases in a single building.
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May 17, 2021 19:51
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Halloween Jack posted:The "nine parts of the algorithm and he has eight" thing felt like a videogamey setup that they (probably for the best) didn't really do anything with. Loved that they kept talking about "nine" pieces, but in the end they separated them into three (then two). Loved that Nolan chose the word "algorithm", an intangible concept, to describe his tangible MacGuffin.
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May 17, 2021 20:00
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The idea of it being an "algorithm" at least makes thematic sense since that can mean a specific program running on computer or like a Hobbesian leviathan of social processes that no one is really in control of.
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May 17, 2021 20:05
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:They basically don't care about anything unless some record of it reaches "the future people". But they also insist that the faked jet heist/plane accident/terror attack on one of Sator's main bases won't leave any record, so.... I think its more that its an effective distraction. It looks like a perfectly reasonable occurrence in history, "thieves attempt to rob plane", so the thing going on at the art dealership nearby is ignored by the future people. Hide in plain sight. Owlofcreamcheese posted:The blue room having reverse oxygen raises the question of why protagonist was able to go to the blue room in oslo and I feel like the answer is written down on some piece of paper somewhere because to get to that room they have to go to a bunch of rooms with choking atmospheres. And I think you are supposed to assume the backwards oxygen vented with the halide gas. when the freeport refilled with air after the "fire". Since it feels like a lot of movie work to make a premise there is two unrelated unbreathable gases in a single building. Yeah there's a few things like this that feels like there were notes on but it didn't end up making the cut into the final script. But it feels like somebody had ideas here, pretty cool.
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May 17, 2021 20:09
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:The blue room having reverse oxygen raises the question of why protagonist was able to go to the blue room in oslo and I feel like the answer is written down on some piece of paper somewhere because to get to that room they have to go to a bunch of rooms with choking atmospheres. And I think you are supposed to assume the backwards oxygen vented with the halide gas. when the freeport refilled with air after the "fire". Since it feels like a lot of movie work to make a premise there is two unrelated unbreathable gases in a single building. None of the Oslo rooms have reverse O2. The blue room in... wherever was flooded with reverse O2 so you could go into it from the turnstile and hang out with your reverse bros. Forward Protag can go into the Oslo rooms because they are normal (I guess a puff of RO2 comes out of the turnstile), while Reverse Protag basically has to stay suited up the whole time in both rooms.
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May 17, 2021 20:18
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Zaphod42 posted:Yeah there's a few things like this that feels like there were notes on but it didn't end up making the cut into the final script. But it feels like somebody had ideas here, pretty cool. Yeah, it feels like a lot of things aren't answered exactly, but aren't totally hand waved away. Like there being cars wrapped up in tarps at the turnstyle. Which doesn't really answer anything, but also totally answers where the protagonist and sator got inverted cars. Like it answers it ENOUGH.
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May 17, 2021 20:21
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Yeah, it feels like a lot of things aren't answered exactly, but aren't totally hand waved away. Like there being cars wrapped up in tarps at the turnstyle. Which doesn't really answer anything, but also totally answers where the protagonist and sator got inverted cars. There are a lot of things that technically fit the mechanics of the film, but make absolutely zero sense for a person to be doing. Like, there's nothing physically stopping James Bond from slowly pouring a glass of orange juice onto his head in the middle of the scene. And it's possible that doing so might short-circuit a nearby doomsday device. But how did things get to this point? What the hell was he thinking? For example: Normal Sator gets ambushed by Tenet forces after the car chase, so he escapes backwards in time. He is now Inverted Sator. Let's track what he does. Inverted Sator, of course, is trying to recover the Cube. He suspects it's in the glove box of Neil's BMW, so he runs over to where the gunfight took place. The Cube is of course not there, so Sator immediately enacts his fallback plan. The fallback plan goes like this: Inverted Sator jumps into the uninverted grey car driven by a Normal Henchman, and pretends to be Normal Sator. To maintain the illusion, just in case he's being watched, Inverted Sator uses telekinesis to unlaunch the orange case into his car instead of just picking it up, pretending to not have already known(?) that the case was empty. He then unescapes into the black SUV while, again, pretending to be doing the opposite. He's preparing to uncatch the empty orange case, etc.. The point of all this was basically to act as a time spy and observe the situation. It's precisely at this point, just before uncatching the case, that he spies Inverted Protag in the inverted silver car. Now Inverted Sator knows where the Cube was going, so he uncatches the case and does a bunch of random bullshit to ensure that Normal Protag goes through with the ruse - counting to three, stupid swervy driving, etc. Now, that's already tricky to lay out in just these basic terms, but actually enacting all this requires an incredibly complex half-choreographed interactions between Normal and Inverted Henchmen. Many of these maneuvers are invented on-the-fly. Normal Kat's in the mix, and it's a big mess. So: why did Sator go through the whole ruse when he could have just gotten a Normal Henchman to hold up the gun and count down to zero? SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 00:28 on May 18, 2021 |
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May 17, 2021 21:59
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It seems like no matter what you did it would always make a highly perfect Impossibly choreographed clockwork set of motions. Like, no matter what you do or think you are doing it’s going to always be an improbably complex set of steps that leads to the exact perfect thing to happen to exactly play out history exactly perfectly stepped through the set of events that are laid out. Like your attempt to even do something else will just end up being the exact set of exact steps that caused the original time line anyway. No matter what you do. It’ll always seem a little too perfect. But the same would be true of just normal forward moving time if you ever saw it from “the outside”
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May 17, 2021 23:03
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:It seems like no matter what you did it would always make a highly perfect Impossibly choreographed clockwork set of motions. Like, no matter what you do or think you are doing it’s going to always be an improbably complex set of steps that leads to the exact perfect thing to happen to exactly play out history exactly perfectly stepped through the set of events that are laid out. Right, but Sator‘s entire mission is: 1) Push Protag to do a thing. and 2) Secretly observe the thing Protag does, so that he can counteract it. In pursuit of those goals, there is no reason whatsoever for Sator to do what he does - and there are countless drawbacks, like immediately giving away that he’s using Time Fuckery. So, as with Protag bouncing the case off the backwards car’s hood, the decision-making process is entirely hosed. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 00:28 on May 18, 2021 |
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May 18, 2021 00:23
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Zaphod42 posted:Uh huh? SMG is the one who has been arguing there is no gold issue. Kodiak and I were the ones talking about that. https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3903400&userid=118075#post514483677 https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3903400&userid=118075#post514492613
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May 18, 2021 04:34
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Hence, they’re idiots. that's something I've been thinking about, that the characters are all too stupid or too dutiful to cause time paradoxes, and that's the only thing that saves the spacetime continuum SuperMechagodzilla posted:The fun is that it's not just with the exposition. lol yes! also why does inverted Sator hand the case off? like it's cool when you realize he knows he doesn't need it so he can symmetrically do that, but why bother? edit: oh your next post was about exactly this
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May 18, 2021 04:46
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if anyone sees us do this... it was all for nothing. *ignores a truck chasing them and honking repeatedly*
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May 18, 2021 05:00
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Does Sator throw the case back or does it get sucked out of his hands?
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May 18, 2021 05:04
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gregday posted:Does Sator throw the case back or does it get sucked out of his hands? he appears to throw it from inverted Protag's POV
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May 18, 2021 05:11
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gregday posted:Does Sator throw the case back or does it get sucked out of his hands? This is actually a bit of cleverness from the movie. From the Protag's perspective, Sator is catching the empty case and is duped. From Sator's inverted perspective, he is throwing back the empty case because he knows it's a ruse.
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May 18, 2021 05:27
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 hahyaha
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May 18, 2021 05:42
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:There are a lot of things that technically fit the mechanics of the film, but make absolutely zero sense for a person to be doing. Like, there's nothing physically stopping James Bond from slowly pouring a glass of orange juice onto his head in the middle of the scene. And it's possible that doing so might short-circuit a nearby doomsday device. But how did things get to this point? What the hell was he thinking? the 'half-choreographed' stuff is essentially part of the structure of time that becomes more obvious because of how some people are inverted no one is particularly trying to match up, it just works because time. The film establishes that there is an instinctive sense to things. So yeah, they were literally invented on the fly. Everything slots into place because it had always slotted into place and the human mind can somewhat detect that.
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May 18, 2021 16:55
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Is the Turnstile meant to be two separate circles, or just one large one? I guess it's two because there must be some level of teleportation happening at the moment of inverting. If not, then in the moments leading up to inversion, your Forward and Inverted selves would need to merge into one (before immediately disappearing in the forward chronology).
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May 18, 2021 19:20
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