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What does the process of creating a proper military academy look like? Who develops the standards and curriculum in a country that lacks a professional officer corps? Do you just hire a bunch of Prussians?
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May 20, 2021 14:58
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zoux posted:What does the process of creating a proper military academy look like? Who develops the standards and curriculum in a country that lacks a professional officer corps? Do you just hire a bunch of Prussians? or french e: or turks or brits in india
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May 20, 2021 14:59
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Step 1) Oh god our officers and commanders haven't fought a proper war since Napoleon. Step 2) OH GOD WHY. Step 3) Found a college after said war and really crack down on the whole cash for comission thing. A gross over simplification I know, but comedy forums.
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May 20, 2021 15:01
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Nebakenezzer posted:There's no loving way I'm searching for this, but I remember contrarian troll Ann Coultier was defending McCarthy for taking such a brave, principled stand. 
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May 20, 2021 15:09
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bewbies posted:As the Civil War generation of officers retired/died and the military gradually retreated back to a state of semi-relevance, prestige etc declined right along with it. One other consideration is that a lot of the Civil War generation of officers didn't retire. They created a log jam in the cursus honorum for decades, making it impossible for a generation of junior officers who entered the military after the war to get promotions until they eventually died off. The Navy was especially badly hit by this. According to the USNI, in 1881 the USN had 286 ships - and 350 admirals. Here's an editorial cartoon of the day:  This made the prospect of a military career extremely unattractive for a long time.
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May 20, 2021 15:20
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Cessna posted:One other consideration is that a lot of the Civil War generation of officers didn't retire. They created a log jam in the cursus honorum for decades, making it impossible for a generation of junior officers who entered the military after the war to get promotions until they eventually died off. haha
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May 20, 2021 15:28
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Anyone know anything about the "artillery boats" in the caspian, or the caspian flotilla in general I guess
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May 20, 2021 17:41
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Milo and POTUS posted:Anyone know anything about the "artillery boats" in the caspian, or the caspian flotilla in general I guess They are designed for work on rivers, lakes and seas, and were designed to fight other small boats and people on land. They have a turret from a PT76B, some rocket launchers and 30mm machine guns. It's an evolution of artillery boats that were used in WWII. But made by the Navy and designed more for port defense.
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May 20, 2021 18:20
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What's the current "Napoleon for Dummies" reference out there
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May 20, 2021 22:06
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:What's the current "Napoleon for Dummies" reference out there 
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May 20, 2021 22:15
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The author, J David Markham, also co-produced a very good "Intro to Napoleon" podcast a few years ago: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-napoleon-bonaparte-podcast/id553730473
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May 20, 2021 22:36
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Interesting stuff, thanks! To carry on from that, how did WW1 affect the popular perception of soldiering as a profession, if it did at all? Cessna posted:One other consideration is that a lot of the Civil War generation of officers didn't retire. They created a log jam in the cursus honorum for decades, making it impossible for a generation of junior officers who entered the military after the war to get promotions until they eventually died off. Honestly, for navies the problem of matching officer supply to ship supply has been a problem forever. I'd have to look it up to find the exact numbers (and details) quoted, but N.A.M. Rodger in The Command of the Ocean notes that around the 18th century, the best time for a prospective Royal Navy officer to be born was around 20-odd years before the next war - just old enough to have been recently promoted to lieutenant or so and thus take part in glorious attention-grabbing actions that might kick him up to commander, in which capacity he will hopefully perform daringly enough to become post-captain at which point he'd be set to climb the seniority ladder all the way to admiral without any further effort. Getting promoted to lieutenant or commander shortly before the end of the war means furious competition for rare positions, especially commanders - they're much more limited in what ships they can command, and there's few of them active in peacetime. Apparently a number of lieutenants would refuse promotion to commander when offered on the basis that their chances of making a living in the peacetime navy are better as a serving lieutenant than a half pay commander. Given that in the 18th century the Royal Navy was at war roughly once per generation (until Napoleon anyways) that also means that even if they could find berths anyone who didn't make the jump to post captain during the war was doomed to become a middle-aged or more junior officer come the next war, with almost no prospects of beating out the energetic younger generation. A lifetime of bitterness probably doesn't help promotion prospects either. The Napoleonic Wars were apparently the first real time the Royal Navy were able to have multiple generations of experienced, trained officers climbing the ranks. I can't recall right now if they worked out a permanent solution to the whole staffing problem before the end of the war, though, and unfortunately that's where the book ended so I've no idea what happened during the Victorian period. I think I recall bewbies mentioning the modern USN has an "up or out" system where you either get promoted or fired, which I think had its own issues, so I guess the problem hasn't really been entirely fixed yet? I wonder if there's some way of applying inventory management techniques to officer training? ...and now I've got the mental image of Jeff Bezos in charge of officer training for the US military, that's gonna help me sleep at night. (Note: All of this is from memory of a single source, I am not an actual historian, just wanted to try and contribute to a thread in which I normally just ask questions!) Tomn fucked around with this message at 23:29 on May 20, 2021 |
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May 20, 2021 23:26
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The obvious answer is to replace all the naval officers with mercenaries who can go wherever the war is.
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May 21, 2021 00:28
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bewbies posted:The Mexican War raised the profile of the military quite a bit. It was arguably the first major thing the US military did well, and it was obviously a huge news story and did a lot for the relative prestige of military professionals. Another important thing from that era If you want to read about an unfortunate military career, check out Franklin Pierce's in the Mexican War: quote:Using his connections, he appealed to President James Polk for a commission. The President repaid Pierce's old campaign favors. By the time the force sailed for the Mexican shores of Veracruz in mid-1847, Pierce was a brigadier general commanding over two thousand men, though he had no military experience whatsoever. zoux posted:What does the process of creating a proper military academy look like? Who develops the standards and curriculum in a country that lacks a professional officer corps? Do you just hire a bunch of Prussians? Prime Minister Trudeau alt-account spotted Nebakenezzer fucked around with this message at 01:10 on May 21, 2021 |
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May 21, 2021 01:04
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Tomn posted:Interesting stuff, thanks! Up or out isn’t perfect but it keeps from bottle necking and it forces people to stay competitive, educated, and career relevant. The marine corps has started actually looking at promoting officers early more aggressively (it has been very very rare) just to further incentivize performance and staying in
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May 21, 2021 01:31
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Nebakenezzer posted:
I don't get this joke
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May 21, 2021 01:42
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Count Roland posted:I don't get this joke Let's just say Canada's current PM might have a lot of questions on how you build an officer corps up from nothing, because all the previous ones were fired
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May 21, 2021 02:35
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sounds like the officers arent taking sufficient initiative in making foreign policy decisions independent of policy and starting wars in manchuria
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May 21, 2021 03:57
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Nebakenezzer posted:If you want to read about an unfortunate military career, check out Franklin Pierce's in the Mexican War: If you want to read about an unfortunate life/career, read the rest of Franklin Pierce's biography. Especially the part where his son was crushed to death and nearly decapitated in front of him in a train crash right before becoming President.
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May 21, 2021 04:18
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Gully Foyle posted:If you want to read about an unfortunate life/career, read the rest of Franklin Pierce's biography. Especially the part where his son was crushed to death and nearly decapitated in front of him in a train crash right before becoming President. Dude was a walking tragedy. Also good job repping Bester dudes disappeared from the SciFi world and he don't deserve that
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May 21, 2021 06:28
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Thomamelas posted:They are designed for work on rivers, lakes and seas, and were designed to fight other small boats and people on land. They have a turret from a PT76B, some rocket launchers and 30mm machine guns. It's an evolution of artillery boats that were used in WWII. But made by the Navy and designed more for port defense. Isn't a 30mm firmly in the autocannon territory
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May 21, 2021 07:46
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What happened to North American trade and communication networks during and after the epidemics caused by European contact? I know that smallpox spread through these networks much faster than Europeans could travel, did they collapse at some point in the Great Dying or did long-distance trade between Indigenous nations continue?
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May 21, 2021 08:32
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Vaguely offensive that he's labelled "France's greatest leader" when France was ruined and defeated under his leadership
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May 21, 2021 10:30
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Yeah "greatest leaders" should kinda be weighted towards people who manage to actually hold on to their gains for at least a bit imo. Looking at you, Alexander.Milo and POTUS posted:Isn't a 30mm firmly in the autocannon territory If you're some kind of pussy maybe 
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May 21, 2021 12:24
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FastestGunAlive posted:Up or out isn’t perfect but it keeps from bottle necking and it forces people to stay competitive, educated, and career relevant. The marine corps has started actually looking at promoting officers early more aggressively (it has been very very rare) just to further incentivize performance and staying in This sounds like a good way to get excellent captains and corrupt and useless admirals. I seriously hope admirals are also fired and replaced regularly, or this system is doomed to end with an entrenched caste of mummy admirals slowly crumbling to dust in their offices, while all promising captains below keep getting fired since there is no free spot to promote them into
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May 21, 2021 12:32
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Maybe after you reach Admiral you get promoted to Lieutenant* and start working your way up the ranks again. Do well enough and you might even be able to become a Lieutenant**.
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May 21, 2021 12:38
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In the US navy admirals have to retire at 64 unless the president or secdef says you don’t. Everyone else has to retire at 62
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May 21, 2021 12:42
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Assign admirals to front line combat roles, give them a big hat and have them direct the action from the decks of the boats. Problem solved
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May 21, 2021 13:23
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Libluini posted:This sounds like a good way to get excellent captains and corrupt and useless admirals. I seriously hope admirals are also fired and replaced regularly, or this system is doomed to end with an entrenched caste of mummy admirals slowly crumbling to dust in their offices, while all promising captains below keep getting fired since there is no free spot to promote them into Not sure what you mean. There are time in service limits/mandatory retirement ages so admirals aren’t “slowly crumbling to dust”. They’re up or out. Also check out how many navy captains and admirals get fired on like, a yearly basis? It’s a lot.
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May 21, 2021 14:26
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Can't imagine cycling through officers at that rate can be good for operational performance.
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May 21, 2021 14:31
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I'm getting towards the end of the Aubrey-Maturain series and it's heavily focused on the looming end of the Napoleonic Wars and the resulting lack of ships/career prospects for the sailors. It doesn't sound like the Royal Navy had a mandatory retirement age.
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May 21, 2021 14:34
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Also billets and commands are assigned for a specific time frame - you don’t get to say “well im just going to stay in charge of fifth fleet for another year” because you were told approximately how long you’d have it when you first took command, and your successor was chosen about a year in advance from that change of command
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May 21, 2021 14:37
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FastestGunAlive posted:Not sure what you mean. There are time in service limits/mandatory retirement ages so admirals aren’t “slowly crumbling to dust”. They’re up or out. Also check out how many navy captains and admirals get fired on like, a yearly basis? It’s a lot. Well, as long as admirals are removed regularly, I guess the system works. 
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May 21, 2021 15:09
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Count Roland posted:I'm getting towards the end of the Aubrey-Maturain series and it's heavily focused on the looming end of the Napoleonic Wars and the resulting lack of ships/career prospects for the sailors. It doesn't sound like the Royal Navy had a mandatory retirement age. pretty much all the old useless guys without connects got yellowed, though, and weren't really in a position to do any material harm other than a drain on the budget
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May 21, 2021 15:21
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FastestGunAlive posted:Up or out isn’t perfect but it keeps from bottle necking and it forces people to stay competitive, educated, and career relevant. The marine corps has started actually looking at promoting officers early more aggressively (it has been very very rare) just to further incentivize performance and staying in Oh sure, I'm not saying it's a bad system or that it isn't the best option available, just noting that matching officer supply to ship supply is not an entirely solved problem, and maybe never will be. Would be interesting to see if anyone can come up with personnel innovations to better solve the problem within the next century. You know, promotion talk got me thinking of a silly pop culture question - I remember when I was very young in one of the Tom Clancy books there's a scene where an American officer (probably ubermensch Jack Ryan) runs across this highly efficient British sergeant and thinks "drat, what a waste. If he was in the US military he'd have been promoted to officer. Instead he's stuck in the British Army as a NCO for the rest of his career." Was that an accurate representation of promotion patterns in the two countries at the time (I assume around the '80s-'90s)? If it was, do we know why their patterns diverged, and how it impacted overall effectiveness, if it did? Bit of a dumb question I know but it's weird the little things that stick in your head decades later and I always wondered a little about it.
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May 21, 2021 15:36
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Also doesn't the US Army have all sorts of career staff sergeants and warrant officers and such?
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May 21, 2021 15:48
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
aphid_licker posted:Yeah "greatest leaders" should kinda be weighted towards people who manage to actually hold on to their gains for at least a bit imo. Looking at you, Alexander. The whole metric is a dumb way to measure somebody. Napoleon has skills and talent because the dude was pretty good at landing on his feet with both political intrigue and with managing a terrifying amount of military things. I mean I cannot think of any other officer and leader who deserted his armies three times in his career and was exiled but somehow came back into power and survive multiple times. Man sucked at diplomacy and making friends. Also France always gets better, if it doesn't collapse or have the occasional revolution it would not be France.
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May 21, 2021 16:11
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Tomn posted:Oh sure, I'm not saying it's a bad system or that it isn't the best option available, just noting that matching officer supply to ship supply is not an entirely solved problem, and maybe never will be. Would be interesting to see if anyone can come up with personnel innovations to better solve the problem within the next century. Can’t speak to your specific question but I find the scene amusing as I know many marines who are jealous of our British counterparts’ ability to choose to stay at a specific rank and deny promotion. For us if you deny promotion then you’re getting out when your contract is up.
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May 21, 2021 16:16
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aphid_licker posted:Yeah "greatest leaders" should kinda be weighted towards people who manage to actually hold on to their gains for at least a bit imo. Looking at you, Alexander. That is just one, extremely limited aspect of 'greatness', mind you. You can also look at overall societal or cultural influence that they have had. If Napoleon has a pastry and Alexander a kebab named after them it's hard to argue that they didn't achieve greatness. Same with Caesar salad. But have you ever eaten a Mussolini or a Nixon?
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May 21, 2021 16:21
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FastestGunAlive posted:Also billets and commands are assigned for a specific time frame - you don’t get to say “well im just going to stay in charge of fifth fleet for another year” because you were told approximately how long you’d have it when you first took command, and your successor was chosen about a year in advance from that change of command Absolutely. This isn't Star Trek, where Riker can say "I just want to stay an XO for a few more years 'cause I like this ship." That would de facto end a career in the real military. Tomn posted:You know, promotion talk got me thinking of a silly pop culture question - I remember when I was very young in one of the Tom Clancy books there's a scene where an American officer (probably ubermensch Jack Ryan) runs across this highly efficient British sergeant and thinks "drat, what a waste. If he was in the US military he'd have been promoted to officer. Instead he's stuck in the British Army as a NCO for the rest of his career." Was that an accurate representation of promotion patterns in the two countries at the time (I assume around the '80s-'90s)? If it was, do we know why their patterns diverged, and how it impacted overall effectiveness, if it did? Lol, no. Clancy never spent a day in the military and it shows.* In theory, yes, in the late 80s/early 90s a talented NCO could be selected to go to college and get a commission through a program called "MECEP." I saw this happen happen exactly once in my entire time in. That was a guy in the same battalion - not once was someone in the same company, let alone platoon, given this, and I served with some smart, talented people. This is the military equivalent of "well just pull yourself up by your bootstraps and become rich." * I met Clancy once when I was a curator, we were at the same Naval History conference. He was an embarrassment. There's nothing like watching an insurance salesman who was never in the military, but who read Jane's Fighting Ships, lecture a room full of admirals and PhD historians about how the navy really works. PittTheElder posted:Also doesn't the US Army have all sorts of career staff sergeants and warrant officers and such? Yes.
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May 21, 2021 16:22
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