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Veev posted:It was in a live letter like half a decade ago but the reason you can't summon the same primal twice is because after the initial summoning that aether is something like imprinted by the primal. If you want to summon that same consciousness you need to retrieve that aether, and if it's already in use it just won't work. You can summon another Ifrit as long as long as it isn't the same being and you don't expect it to have that, but then you're just summoning a different fire god and not the Amaljaa war god myth. That would make sense, honestly? Like, souls are made of aether, just like bodies; the reason reincarnation happens is presumably not some sort of FF7-esque sublimation of self after death into the greater whole of the Lifestream, it's the literal same souls being moved around as cohesive entities. It's consistent with the fact that Amaurotine souls are coherent enough after who knows how many lives to have the Echo. Logically that would mean that if you wanna summon the same being, you're going to have to retrieve the same stuff. And that's, of course, why the Amaurotines needed "ideal forms", it's basically a de facto soul, a blueprint that gets reused over and over again.
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Jun 13, 2021 08:49
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Cleretic posted:I've always thought that the 'there can only be one of a primal around at a time' was a weird and muddy part of the lore, because there's never really a reason for it. So I always thought that a big part of it is more psychological than anything: you can't summon a second Ifrit while the first one's around not because it's impossible, but because you personally know that there is only one Ifrit. It's hard to have faith in the fact you're summoning The One, Real Ifrit when another Ifrit is right there. On the second part, they might know that - but do the kids? No. Would the authorities finding out that Ala Mhigans are now trying to do a summoning and possibly spiking tensions between the Ala Mhigan refugees and such further the aim of startin' poo poo and causing problems? Almost certainly!
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Jun 13, 2021 11:00
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I'd like in-game evidence on the 'only one primal can exist' bit; I trust that it's true, but as someone mentioned, the only source I know of is a several-years-old live letter comment, which... isn't exactly easily referenceable. And is difficult to apply in-universe; it's not like Urianger watches the live letters (although he absolutely would if he could).Nessus posted:On the second part, they might know that - but do the kids? No. Would the authorities finding out that Ala Mhigans are now trying to do a summoning and possibly spiking tensions between the Ala Mhigan refugees and such further the aim of startin' poo poo and causing problems? Almost certainly! And... would the Ascians care about that goal? Especially in ARR, when they're sticking to an absurdly, even boringly specific playbook of 'get primals to knock poo poo out of alignment'? If that plan were happening in the present day and it was Fandaniel loving poo poo up just to destabilize, I'd buy it (or... hell, what if it was Fandaniel laying down his plans before he knew he could do them), but the Ascian plan up until Shadowbringers was basically to either use already-existing primals or give the idea to people likely to summon one capable of knocking the planet off its aetheric axis (Eorzean beast tribes leading to an empowered Ultima Weapon, King Thordan, Alexander, Eureka, Shinryu). What does fermenting conflict between the refugees and Ul'Dah do for that, when one side can't summon primals and the other side won't and also probably can't? That's just gonna lead to a curbstomp and human rights violations at best, that doesn't help the Ascians. It just doesn't fit the Ascian M.O. at the time for the Rhalgr ploy to not be directly leading to a primal. Hell, if they're trying to brew conflict that could escalate, both the smartest and 'most Ascian' thing to do would probably be to give the refugees something meaty that would WORK to give them a strong foothold for independence. Hide something juicy in the Sunken Temple of Qarn and get the refugees to find it, or something.
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Jun 13, 2021 11:23
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Cleretic posted:And... would the Ascians care about that goal? Especially in ARR, when they're sticking to an absurdly, even boringly specific playbook of 'get primals to knock poo poo out of alignment'? If that plan were happening in the present day and it was Fandaniel loving poo poo up just to destabilize, I'd buy it (or... hell, what if it was Fandaniel laying down his plans before he knew he could do them), but the Ascian plan up until Shadowbringers was basically to either use already-existing primals or give the idea to people likely to summon one capable of knocking the planet off its aetheric axis (Eorzean beast tribes leading to an empowered Ultima Weapon, King Thordan, Alexander, Eureka, Shinryu). What does fermenting conflict between the refugees and Ul'Dah do for that, when one side can't summon primals and the other side won't and also probably can't? That's just gonna lead to a curbstomp and human rights violations at best, that doesn't help the Ascians.
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Jun 13, 2021 11:37
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Cleretic posted:I'd like in-game evidence on the 'only one primal can exist' bit; I trust that it's true, but as someone mentioned, the only source I know of is a several-years-old live letter comment, which... isn't exactly easily referenceable. And is difficult to apply in-universe; it's not like Urianger watches the live letters (although he absolutely would if he could). Generally creating chaos in the world allows for people to resort to desperate means, which gives Ascians a lot to play with leading towards a rejoining. Reminder that Garlemald was literally founded to create as much discord as possible, which resulted in fertile ground to cause one rejoining and almost a second.
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Jun 13, 2021 11:42
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Okay, so it seems that I am drastically overestimating the Ascians' intelligence. There's no point to them giving Ala Mhigan refugees the tools to summon a god they can't summon, but... they'd do it anyway, because chaos. That is... extremely disappointing. I prefer when there's reasons for things that hint at more information. Or... reasons at all.
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Jun 13, 2021 12:30
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Cleretic posted:Okay, so it seems that I am drastically overestimating the Ascians' intelligence. There's no point to them giving Ala Mhigan refugees the tools to summon a god they can't summon, but... they'd do it anyway, because chaos. They did it because it caused the kids to go start poo poo with the Ifrit Summoning Amajaa. Like you expressly save the kids from getting murdered by them which probably would have kicked off counter attacks from the refugees and Brass Blades/Flames in the area which would lead to more strife which is what pushed them into summoning the primal in the first place. In fact, stopping them so things don't get much worse for everyone is what the leader of Little Ala Mhigo contracts you to do in the first place. It's been a common tactic for...most of the antagonists in this game. It's not just general chaos it's creating strife in already strained situations to cause them to just break. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 14:06 on Jun 13, 2021 |
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Jun 13, 2021 14:02
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On top of this, if the kids did manage to whistle up something and it wasn't exactly Rhaelgar, but drat close, you've driven a wedge between people who go 'Well, this is close enough!' and those who go 'No, this isn't Rhaelgar at all!' The Ascians have one trick. But it's a very useful trick.
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Jun 13, 2021 17:21
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Badger of Basra posted:FFXIV 5.55 Spoiler Thread: but I'm not an eikonnossieur
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Jun 13, 2021 18:20
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why are people assuming the twelve couldn't be summoned. at no point i remember has this been indicated to be the case
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Jun 13, 2021 18:41
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Ironslave posted:why are people assuming the twelve couldn't be summoned. at no point i remember has this been indicated to be the case It's because Louisoix tried to summon them to stop Bahamut, but it didn't work. Also Ilberd failed to summon Rhalgr, but he may not have been trying to/Nidhogg's influence got in the way.
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Jun 13, 2021 18:46
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Ironslave posted:why are people assuming the twelve couldn't be summoned. at no point i remember has this been indicated to be the case Louisoix sorta tried to summon them at the end of 1.0. It didn’t exactly work in the expected way
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Jun 13, 2021 18:47
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the way i heard that whole bit was that he was trying to summon their power, not the twelve directly, because by that point they established that would be a bad idea.
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Jun 13, 2021 18:53
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Yeah he was very specifically trying to invoke them and their power, not summon them. It’s some rules lawyer-ly nonsense and it kind of worked? But then he took all the faith and focus in the area and became Phoenix
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Jun 13, 2021 18:58
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Ironslave posted:why are people assuming the twelve couldn't be summoned. at no point i remember has this been indicated to be the case Iirc it says as much in the Encyclopedia Eorzea.
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Jun 13, 2021 19:01
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Begemot posted:It's because Louisoix tried to summon them to stop Bahamut, but it didn't work. Also Ilberd failed to summon Rhalgr, but he may not have been trying to/Nidhogg's influence got in the way. Ilberd wasn't trying to summon Rhalgr, that's an idea from nowhere--I don't even think Ilberd shows any inclinations towards Rhalgr in the first place, beyond that being an Ala Mhigan 'thing'. He didn't really have a specific image, he just had a goal in mind. And when you're summoning something using dragon eyes... well, what other form would it take? And I never saw Louisoix's failure to summon the Twelve as being from them being unsummonable, either (and I think this is another instance of people taking a very specific reading of an ambiguous scene as 'correct' and getting really attached to that). I always read it as... well, as Louisoix summoning bad, if that was even what he was trying to do; we know primals can only be summoned by mortals with some kind of surplus of aether to work with, and not only did he not have much of that going on, he tried to summon thirteen distinct deities at once. Even if he had enough fervent belief in all of the Twelve to pull that off, he wouldn't have had nearly enough aether to. He swung Phoenix afterwards not just because it was a singular being, but because the Calamity itself provided that surplus of aether he needed.
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Jun 13, 2021 19:09
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I think it's also the fact that the one thing we know about the alliance raid is that it's about the Twelve. So at least that breeds speculation that something is Up with them.
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Jun 13, 2021 19:11
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Ironslave posted:why are people assuming the twelve couldn't be summoned. at no point i remember has this been indicated to be the case I feel like during the Little Ala Mhigo quest chain where we stopped them from summoning Rhalgr we were also told "lol it wouldn't have worked anyway" but maybe I'm misremembering
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Jun 13, 2021 19:16
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Cleretic posted:Ilberd wasn't trying to summon Rhalgr, that's an idea from nowhere--I don't even think Ilberd shows any inclinations towards Rhalgr in the first place, beyond that being an Ala Mhigan 'thing'. He didn't really have a specific image, he just had a goal in mind. And when you're summoning something using dragon eyes... well, what other form would it take? I don't know exactly what Ilberd wanted to summon but that he was trying for Rhalgr is certainly not an idea from nowhere. HE doesn't mention Rhalgr, but all his sacrificed compatriots are praying to Rhalgr as they die. This gave me the impression that summoning Rhalgr was the objective and as I said before, since I didn't know what Rhalgr was supposed to look like, I thought that they had succeeded. Obviously I was wrong about that, which I later realized, but the prayers of the dying asking for Rhalgr is what gave that idea.
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Jun 13, 2021 19:18
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yeah, Louie wasn't trying to summon the Twelve, and I don't remember seeing anything of the sort about the Twelve not being capable of being summoned in EE. Contrary to it, in ARR the Ascians are trying to get some Ala Mhigan refugees to do it. The game's pretty direct suggested (over and over and over again, thanks Gaius) that there isn't any difference between the Twelve and any other gods held by any other culture. Maybe that'll end up not being the case in Endwalker, but at present the game hasn't really suggested the Twelve are special compared to any other faith.
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Jun 13, 2021 19:33
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Ironslave posted:yeah, Louie wasn't trying to summon the Twelve, and I don't remember seeing anything of the sort about the Twelve not being capable of being summoned in EE. Contrary to it, in ARR the Ascians are trying to get some Ala Mhigan refugees to do it. The game's pretty direct suggested (over and over and over again, thanks Gaius) that there isn't any difference between the Twelve and any other gods held by any other culture. The fact that Louiesoix thought he could invoke the Twelve without having them go primal does imply there's something different about them. Gaius writing them off as the same as other gods is more likely to just be Garlean bias.
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Jun 13, 2021 19:53
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I think its very likely that we'll be fighting primals of the twelve in the alliance raid
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Jun 13, 2021 20:04
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...if the Twelve really do derive from memories of the Convocation, maybe they can't be summoned while the relevant Ascian still exists.
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Jun 13, 2021 20:07
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It will be the (2nd) time travel raid and all the fights are just going back and straight up murdering the normal people that inspired the religion in the future. After the last fight it will be revealed that we've been role-playing Lahabrea and it dovetails back into the alliance raid story.
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Jun 13, 2021 20:12
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Allarion posted:The fact that Louiesoix thought he could invoke the Twelve without having them go primal does imply there's something different about them. Gaius writing them off as the same as other gods is more likely to just be Garlean bias. Louisoix wasn't trying to summon the actual 12 though, was he? I thought he was trying to just channel their power to fuel Bahamut's PokeBall. Like using them as a Green Lantern battery
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Jun 13, 2021 21:35
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We already have pretty direct evidence that at least one of the twelve was in fact not a god at all, and that we are their reincarnation, much like Garuda is based off of the allagan general in charge of the Ixal when they were first created. I find it highly unlikely that the game is going to go 'yeah, all the beast tribe gods are fake, but the twelve? Totally real and the only legitimate religion' at this point.
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Jun 13, 2021 22:20
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Rand Brittain posted:...if the Twelve really do derive from memories of the Convocation, maybe they can't be summoned while the relevant Ascian still exists. Ishgardians were able to summon Shiva while the historical Shiva’s soul still was in Hraesvelgr
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Jun 13, 2021 22:25
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thetoughestbean posted:Ishgardians were able to summon Shiva while the historical Shiva’s soul still was in Hraesvelgr That's because they didn't summon OG Shiva. They summoned their idea of Shiva. It's why you could theoretically have Ramuh and Rhalgr out simultaneously despite it being likely that they're based on the same guy, because one is Wise Bearded Lightning Wizard, and the other is Strong PunchFist.
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Jun 13, 2021 22:59
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One other factor is that summoning at all, or 'summoning as something you can do with a few people and a wagonload of crystals' vs. 'massive national ritual', is pretty darn recent.
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Jun 13, 2021 23:14
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 Yeah, it’s not exactly summoning the 12, but similar enough that people were concerned aboit it. Also gaius assuming it was the same
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Jun 13, 2021 23:22
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Eopia posted:We already have pretty direct evidence that at least one of the twelve was in fact not a god at all, and that we are their reincarnation, much like Garuda is based off of the allagan general in charge of the Ixal when they were first created. I find it highly unlikely that the game is going to go 'yeah, all the beast tribe gods are fake, but the twelve? Totally real and the only legitimate religion' at this point. I mean there's no evidence beyond a similar name, but yeah Azeyma is probably Azem.
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Jun 13, 2021 23:39
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SirSamVimes posted:I mean there's no evidence beyond a similar name, but yeah Azeyma is probably Azem. They're also both associated with the sun (Azem's Soul Crystal has the alchemical symbol for the sun on it). I think Urianger even speculates that Azeyma and the Xaela god Azim might be based on Azem in some optional dialogue. It would be the biggest red herring in the world if all of that turned out to be a coincidence.
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Jun 13, 2021 23:54
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Also another thing to note is that the 12 have been established as existing since at least as long as the Allagan empire, if not long before that considering Azeyma and Azim seem to be based off Azem. Another lowkey mysteries is where Louis's staff originated from since it had the equivalence of a ton of crystals for summoning a primal or killing an Ascian, and was one of Sharlyan's treasures, so probably something that might be dug into when we go to Sharlyan.
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Jun 14, 2021 00:09
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Allarion posted:Also another thing to note is that the 12 have been established as existing since at least as long as the Allagan empire, if not long before that considering Azeyma and Azim seem to be based off Azem. Another lowkey mysteries is where Louis's staff originated from since it had the equivalence of a ton of crystals for summoning a primal or killing an Ascian, and was one of Sharlyan's treasures, so probably something that might be dug into when we go to Sharlyan. Convocation of 14 - hydaelyn - zodiark = 12
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Jun 14, 2021 00:42
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It would be weird for Hydaelyn to be associated with one of the 12 when she is already very heavily associated with an Ancient outside the Convocation.
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Jun 14, 2021 00:58
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I want the Twelve to have disparate origins. One’s Azem, another’s a famous man with a long beard, another’s a local goddess that got added to the pantheon, that sort of thing
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Jun 14, 2021 01:00
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thetoughestbean posted:I want the Twelve to have disparate origins. One’s Azem, another’s a famous man with a long beard, another’s a local goddess that got added to the pantheon, that sort of thing This is the most realistic explanation and similar to how real world religions work. If the rest of the Twelve are related they're probably various non-Amurotian adventuring buddies of Azem. The rest of the Convocation didn't really concern themselves with the outside world.
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Jun 14, 2021 01:09
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WrightOfWay posted:This is the most realistic explanation and similar to how real world religions work. This has been suggested to be the case. Not directly with the twelve, outside Azem, but in things like the way Ramuh is essentially Rhalgr by way of a game of telephone.
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Jun 14, 2021 01:51
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thetoughestbean posted:I want the Twelve to have disparate origins. One’s Azem, another’s a famous man with a long beard, another’s a local goddess that got added to the pantheon, that sort of thing Everyone goes on about how we're the reincarnation of one particular Ascian/God, I say we're the reincarnation of whatever god we chose at character creation.
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Jun 14, 2021 01:54
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the_steve posted:Everyone goes on about how we're the reincarnation of one particular Ascian/God, I say we're the reincarnation of whatever god we chose at character creation. *Sighs in Chose Azeyma* Okay.
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Jun 14, 2021 01:56
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