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From what I can tell Norway has a higher COL too. It took me about nine years working in the industry, and I went from 45k to 150k base salary (plus bonus and some equity stuff). I'm fully remote now in a low COL location. We'll see how long this lasts.
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Jun 27, 2021 02:24
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downout posted:From what I can tell Norway has a higher COL too. higher in all ways except in property values lol
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Jun 27, 2021 02:34
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I spent a few days in Oslo a couple years ago and it's the only place that has ever actually been more expensive than NYC as just a guy buying food and beers in whatever bars I could find but it was very nice. Late but I'll participate in salary chat: 2013ish--Dropped out of college in my 5th year and moved to Brooklyn on a whim with some fake internet job that barely paid my rent, stealing food bc I couldn't afford it. 2014--Got a job working at a recognizable startup doing hardware stuff in Brooklyn. Was hired to work the floor doing whatever and then immediately conscripted into being head receiver in the warehouse for like slightly above minimum wage. Read Python books in my spare time. Someone noticed and encouraged me to apply for an internal opening. Got that, wrote some bad code w no guidance for some machinery to get sensor data and stuff. Got promoted to "software engineer" internally bc my boss was a great guy and got bumped to I think 55k but can't remember. 2016--Still not having any real actual experience working in a team of developers I got a job at a startup in who literally only made me do fizz buzz during the interview. 70k iirc. 2018--Feeling much more confident in myself I got a gig at a place in NYC making 135 base w/ a 15% bonus at a spot I really enjoyed working at. Very supportive and I got to do some good work and really grow. Then pandemic derailed that. 2020--Took a W2 contracting gig at 80/hr at the worst company I've ever experienced. Horrible job but was stable through pandemic, looking for something much better both in pay and environment now. The March Hare fucked around with this message at 03:08 on Jun 27, 2021 |
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Jun 27, 2021 03:02
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Out of curiosity, how many of you people making $texas have access to the mega backdoor Roth? I do at my current place and being able to open palm slam $60k into a retirement account every year is probably going to keep me here longer than I otherwise would.gay_crimes posted:I do not want to work for FAANG but I may have to to continue upward progression. It'd be nice to work somewhere with clear salary bands and IC progression, I hate being gaslit by management about my worth and having to go prove them wrong. FAANGs are absolutely not immune to promotion gaslighting. Just having leveling ladder requirements written down doesn't mean that the process necessarily approaches any kind of fairness or objectivity.
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Jun 27, 2021 07:06
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As an example, we have a very explicit ladder and associated example tracking sheet where I write down every data point that contributes to “proof” of whatever level I’m currently targeting (e.g. L4). Even then, my manager sees the data points and is like “well is it really enough” or “hmm we need to see a longer pattern of this” or “I would like to see you contribute to this specific thing first” and regardless of my status on the ladder, I first have to be approved for a promotion by a board whose members I am not aware of. It is always a fight to get a company to value you unless they need to secure you immediately. You need leverage in order to negotiate and get paid what you’re really worth. One of the biggest pieces of leverage you can have over a company is any sort of effort and work they can benefit from at all - hence why it’s easier to negotiate with a company you don’t work for than one that’s already hired you. (EDIT: That’s also why an alternative strategy is to get offered a position somewhere else and then get a counteroffer to stay from your current place - now your leverage is “if you don’t do this you lose an engineer”. Simply doing what you’ve always done but going “hey I should be X level/paid Y dollars” will get you ignored cause the company has no reason to entertain you.) We job hop so much because companies care about potential employees more than current employees. Pollyanna fucked around with this message at 14:35 on Jun 27, 2021 |
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Jun 27, 2021 14:32
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raminasi posted:Out of curiosity, how many of you people making $texas have access to the mega backdoor Roth? I do at my current place and being able to open palm slam $60k into a retirement account every year is probably going to keep me here longer than I otherwise would. I don’t think they’re immune, but I think it’s more likely that you’ll have a chance to stay there and progress without simply going into management. I know someone at a FAANG-lite in Austin who started with a TC of 100k back in 2014 and now they’re at 215k, and their situation doesn’t seem that unique compared to others I’ve talked to. I know it’s not perfect, and the incentives and promotion processes breed dysfunction at these companies, but I’m ready to try something that isn’t 2-3% raises and an attaboy after I make my case months in advance of the promotion/raise cycle. I haven’t stayed at a company beyond the first round of flak and gaslighting from management, because it has been easy to get a substantial raise with another job, so maybe that would still happen for me at FAANG because I’m too impatient to be underpaid and told to wait six more months for arbitrary reasons biceps crimes fucked around with this message at 14:48 on Jun 27, 2021 |
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Jun 27, 2021 14:46
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Isn't the one mega reason to go FAANG so that you don't have to worry about being "underpaid" at least relatively? Like you might be gaslit about promotions or whatever but you'll still be insanely paid while getting the brunt of that, which, who cares about titles and poo poo?
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Jun 27, 2021 15:11
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For me personally the money stopped mattering around 150k, but I felt like I had to chase promo because I wanted the status and respect of my peers etc. I think "who cares about titles" is the best way to live your life but it didn't come naturally for me.
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Jun 27, 2021 16:57
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Edly posted:For me personally the money stopped mattering around 150k, but I felt like I had to chase promo because I wanted the status and respect of my peers etc. I think "who cares about titles" is the best way to live your life but it didn't come naturally for me. I would probably feel the same about the titles if I wasn't at a place full of cliques and incompetence rewarding, as they then lose their luster. I suspect this ails most companies. It's another reason I've basically decided to make this my last "big-ish corp" job, and try to figure out something I want to do in the next phase of my life. I had a small business before, and I miss the flexibility and self-direction.
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Jun 27, 2021 17:06
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Edly posted:For me personally the money stopped mattering around 150k, but I felt like I had to chase promo because I wanted the status and respect of my peers etc. I think "who cares about titles" is the best way to live your life but it didn't come naturally for me. I'm in NYC and with 5 YoE I'm worried I won't get the 200 TC I want if I don't get one of the FAANGs. But, I quite literally could not care about titles as long as I'm getting paid enough to live relatively "comfortably".
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Jun 27, 2021 17:20
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Jesus, why am I sitting here making $95k with 13 years of experience 
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Jun 27, 2021 17:51
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Good Will Hrunting posted:I'm in NYC and with 5 YoE I'm worried I won't get the 200 TC I want if I don't get one of the FAANGs. But, I quite literally could not care about titles as long as I'm getting paid enough to live relatively "comfortably". I think my current company might be a good option, I PMed you.
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Jun 27, 2021 17:53
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Good Will Hrunting posted:I'm in NYC and with 5 YoE I'm worried I won't get the 200 TC I want if I don't get one of the FAANGs. But, I quite literally could not care about titles as long as I'm getting paid enough to live relatively "comfortably". You absolutely can. The NYC market is full of places that pay that much. Salaries seem to have significantly risen the past few years -- my job used to be somewhat competitive (and was fully remote which used to be a huge perk that, to me, justified a somewhat lower-than-average salary but is now commonplace) but no longer appears to be, based on the last few conversations with recruiters that I've had. [edit] Title does start to become somewhat relevant as you get older, even though titles vary wildly from company to company and title inflation is a very real thing. But HR screeners can't always distinguish that. "You went from a senior architect to a senior developer? Why the downgrade?" even if the senior developer role had you solving much more difficult problems architecturally than the architect role. I'm personally unconcerned about title but I still try to be cognizant of how title changes may look to others. New Yorp New Yorp fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Jun 27, 2021 |
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Jun 27, 2021 18:00
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rt4 posted:Jesus, why am I sitting here making $95k with 13 years of experience answer is usually 'you are not in a figgieland' or 'you kept job too long' there is a gigantic disincentive to stay in jobs in this business
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Jun 27, 2021 18:00
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Could anywhere in the US be figgieland if you're remote?
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Jun 27, 2021 18:02
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rt4 posted:Could anywhere in the US be figgieland if you're remote? as of 15 months ago yes. dunno about how much longer
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Jun 27, 2021 18:05
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Edly posted:I think my current company might be a good option, I PMed you. Going to effort reply when I'm back near a PC tonight or tomorrow with a few listings as it's literally the first company on my Tier A list (I'm working through Tier S apps/process now). Thanks for reaching out! bob dobbs is dead posted:as of 15 months ago yes. dunno about how much longer Facebook and Twitter are staying remote forever 100%. Dropbox and Stripe too I believe. Those are the big Figgielands I know of that are guaranteed 100% remote. The interesting conundrum for me is that I want to stay in NYC in terms of living but also would prefer to work remotely for 100% of my days so I'm not sure if that's the best idea. Good Will Hrunting fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Jun 27, 2021 |
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Jun 27, 2021 18:07
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bob dobbs is dead posted:as of 15 months ago yes. dunno about how much longer It seems like a lot of companies are comfortable with full remote employees now that they've established that - they have the security/networking/infrastructure in place to support it - people still do their work and projects are being delivered - they have a much larger pool of qualified people Some companies, of course, are going right back to "asses in seats from 8 to 5", but a lot fewer than I was expecting.
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Jun 27, 2021 18:08
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My company built out a giant campus that was already less than 50% utilized. We're remote for the remainder of this year, but those chairs won't get smelly by themselves. I'm just waiting for the hammer to drop so I can peace out.
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Jun 27, 2021 19:32
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gbut posted:I'm just waiting for the hammer to drop so I can peace out. I have a feeling there's going to be a lot of this over the next 6-12 months as many companies inevitably revert to their old office-centric cultures. I wager that almost every big company planning on hybrid now is just a slippery slope back to near full-time in office again. And it will be led by managers and PMs with artificially busy meeting schedules that will inevitably turn "2 days a week" into 3, then 4, then 5. Devs and other ICs will get both implicitly and explicitly pressured to follow suit. Our hybrid schedule starts in September, and my next batch of retention RSUs first vesting cliff is in November. We shall see, we shall see. Guinness fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Jun 27, 2021 |
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Jun 27, 2021 19:35
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The thing I don't get about the desire to fill a big empty office is the company pays the same rent regardless. Let the floor/building go dark until the lease is up, then pocket the savings. If the argument is "we work better in the office" then fine, citation needed but it's an argument. "We have this office just sitting here so we have to use it" is nonsensical.
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Jun 27, 2021 19:40
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Good Will Hrunting posted:I'm in NYC and with 5 YoE I'm worried I won't get the 200 TC I want if I don't get one of the FAANGs. But, I quite literally could not care about titles as long as I'm getting paid enough to live relatively "comfortably". I've read a bunch of your posts and I'm wondering exactly why you're chasing a specific comp this hard? It feels a lot like min/maxing your career which is fine, just remember that you've got at least 30-40 more years of your career ahead of you. Not to say you shouldn't stack as much paper as you can as early as you can but it's worth remembering that it's a marathon, not a sprint.
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Jun 27, 2021 19:42
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Blinkz0rz posted:I've read a bunch of your posts and I'm wondering exactly why you're chasing a specific comp this hard? It feels a lot like min/maxing your career which is fine, just remember that you've got at least 30-40 more years of your career ahead of you. Not to say you shouldn't stack as much paper as you can as early as you can but it's worth remembering that it's a marathon, not a sprint. Counter point: if you sprint to maximize comp early, you can greatly shorten the length of the marathon Assuming you don't inflate your lifestyle right alongside your comp growth and instead save 30-50% of your income
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Jun 27, 2021 19:44
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Guinness posted:Counter point: if you sprint to maximize comp early, you can greatly shorten the length of the marathon Or that you don't burn yourself out! Hustle culture has made everyone forget that most people in the early to mid stages of their career won't retire until 70 at least. I'm certain most folks in this thread will probably be closer to 60 but it's still worth remembering that there are a bunch of things, like health insurance, that become more expensive to purchase by itself as you get older, Medicare doesn't kick in until age 65 right now (and honestly who even knows what it'll be as we start getting to that age?), and most retirement-based financial vehicles have fixed timelines pegged to the 65-ish area as well. Stacking paper early to buy a house, take lots of vacations, accumulate stuff, or just have financial safety and comfort is great if it makes you feel good. Just don't forget the longevity here.
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Jun 27, 2021 19:51
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Blinkz0rz posted:I've read a bunch of your posts and I'm wondering exactly why you're chasing a specific comp this hard? It feels a lot like min/maxing your career which is fine, just remember that you've got at least 30-40 more years of your career ahead of you. Not to say you shouldn't stack as much paper as you can as early as you can but it's worth remembering that it's a marathon, not a sprint. Because living in a high COL area is something I'd like to continue to do so I can see my family and friends and the people I've established my life with, and I'm 33 and not trying to have roommates. I have to work to live so I might as well Math.max it.
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Jun 27, 2021 19:52
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Blinkz0rz posted:I've read a bunch of your posts and I'm wondering exactly why you're chasing a specific comp this hard? It feels a lot like min/maxing your career which is fine, just remember that you've got at least 30-40 more years of your career ahead of you. Not to say you shouldn't stack as much paper as you can as early as you can but it's worth remembering that it's a marathon, not a sprint. That's one way of looking at it, but another way is "get paid while the getting's good". I used to feel the way like it was a marathon, but I've been shifting lately toward "get paid, NOW" as I get a little bit older and I start to develop various middle age person problems and have some very likely unfounded paranoia about my ability to work for another 20 or 30 years. That whole "ohhh, I'm not impervious to disease, aging, and age-related maladies" realization can be a real shock to people who have generally been otherwise healthy for most of their lives.
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Jun 27, 2021 19:53
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No doubt, there is a balance to be struck. And that's a personal decision everyone must make for themselves. But in this industry right now, if you've been at the same job for 5+ years it's quite likely that a little bit of interview prep and job hopping can get you a 50-100% comp increase. Interviewing sucks, but short term stress for huge long term gain. If you're an experienced/senior dev in a major US metro only making 100k you're getting shafted so drat hard right now. And now with remote jobs being more available, at least for the time being, you don't even have to physically be in a major metro. If you've got a super cushy low stress gig then sure, keep it. But if you've got a typical "my job is fine" type of job, you owe it to yourself to put yourself out there and see what you find. You might literally double or triple your comp. That will take years off the marathon, and give you more security and potential enjoyment along the way. And it's all possible that this comp bubble is unsustainable and comes crashing down in a few years, in which case get it while the getting is good. Guinness fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Jun 27, 2021 |
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Jun 27, 2021 19:55
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Once you hit figgieland, you can theoretically stack paper for ~five years then live in perpetuity on the median income. So it definitely could be a sprint.
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Jun 27, 2021 19:58
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Guinness posted:No doubt, there is a balance to be struck. And that's a personal decision everyone must make for themselves. Oh yeah, I'm not disagreeing at all. I've just noticed a certain...panic(?) from some posters about where they think they should be at. All I'm saying is that life is usually pretty long and so is your career. You might get lucky but statistically you probably won't so maybe probably don't stress as much unless you have financial obligations that put you in a crunch at your current comp.
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Jun 27, 2021 19:58
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New Yorp New Yorp posted:That's one way of looking at it, but another way is "get paid while the getting's good". I used to feel the way like it was a marathon, but I've been shifting lately toward "get paid, NOW" as I get a little bit older and I start to develop various middle age person problems and have some very likely unfounded paranoia about my ability to work for another 20 or 30 years. That whole "ohhh, I'm not impervious to disease, aging, and age-related maladies" realization can be a real shock to people who have generally been otherwise healthy for most of their lives. Or "get paid, NOW" due to concerns over ageism and the longevity of the tech market, both of which are meant to be corollaries to the question "am I still going to have a job when I'm 40/50?". The latter I'm still not 100% certain about, and the former is hard to predict and understand because most people I work with are nowhere near their 40s and 50s (where the gently caress are they). Blinkz0rz posted:Oh yeah, I'm not disagreeing at all. I've just noticed a certain...panic(?) from some posters about where they think they should be at. Sup  quote:All I'm saying is that life is usually pretty long and so is your career. You might get lucky but statistically you probably won't so maybe probably don't stress as much unless you have financial obligations that put you in a crunch at your current comp. That's fair. This whole thing is like 99% of why I put the money I got from ISOs aside for retirement, not to be touched until 2055. (Also why I avoid financial obligations!) Pollyanna fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Jun 27, 2021 |
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Jun 27, 2021 20:00
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rt4 posted:Jesus, why am I sitting here making $95k with 13 years of experience
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Jun 27, 2021 20:03
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It pays to take a weekend or two to work through Designing Data Intensive Applications and Cracking the Code Interview. The latter for shibboleths, the former for actual productivity and insight.
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Jun 27, 2021 20:04
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Good Will Hrunting posted:Facebook and Twitter are staying remote forever 100%. Dropbox and Stripe too I believe. Those are the big Figgielands I know of that are guaranteed 100% remote. Discord is the first I've run across that's determined to go back to the office. They're planning relocation $$ to bring folks that wandered off back to San Francisco.
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Jun 27, 2021 20:16
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Obviously be aware of burnout, but the effort required to get a high paying job isn't that high and you'd be better off coasting at your current job if necessary to make time for it. There's no guarantee that high paying jobs continue. Pay is supposedly through the roof right now compared to pre pandemic, but if full time remote becomes common that's going to put pressure on high wages as the pool of talent dramatically expands. All this leads to get paid now while it's good and if you want to work for 50 years then do so but there's no reason you have to if you control lifestyle inflation.
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Jun 27, 2021 20:17
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Guinness posted:But in this industry right now, if you've been at the same job for 5+ years it's quite likely that a little bit of interview prep and job hopping can get you a 50-100% comp increase. Interviewing sucks, but short term stress for huge long term gain. This was quite literally the argument my wife made to me. I didn't want to spend my evenings and weekends studying, but by doing so for ~5 months, I was able to increase my TC by 120% and reduce my retirement age by a tremendous amount - at least an entire decade (assuming I keep making this much for the remainder of my career). After going to bootcamp in the first place, hitting the books for interview prep was easily the most beneficial decision I've made in my career.
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Jun 27, 2021 20:19
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Pollyanna posted:most people I work with are nowhere near their 40s and 50s (where the gently caress are they) People burn out and look for other careers for sure, but the other big factor is that 20-30 years ago there just weren't that many people going into programming. Before the dotcom boom it was a very niche occupation, and even after that it didn't really take off for a few years.
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Jun 27, 2021 20:33
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dantheman650 posted:I didn't want to spend my evenings and weekends studying, but by doing so for ~5 months, I was able to increase my TC by 120% and reduce my retirement age by a tremendous amount - at least an entire decade (assuming I keep making this much for the remainder of my career). After going to bootcamp in the first place, hitting the books for interview prep was easily the most beneficial decision I've made in my career. Yeah, I did about a month of 1-2 hours every night and more on weekends. I know some people can get away with very little prep, but I don't think they're the majority. It's worth reiterating that you shouldn't expect interviewing to be easy or even successful, but it's worth at least trying. I think I had three onsite interviews the last time and got one offer, I consider myself really lucky. The time before I got no offers after 3+ onsites.
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Jun 27, 2021 20:48
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Shruggoth posted:It's worth reiterating that you shouldn't expect interviewing to be easy or even successful asur posted:the effort required to get a high paying job isn't that high Only one can be true!
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Jun 27, 2021 20:55
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Good Will Hrunting posted:Only one can be true! It's relative to what "high paying" means, I think. Compared to most people in most industries in most of the world? Easy. Compared to the top X% of our industry? A lot harder. Like, you're looking for around $200k. That's the edge of where it starts to get selective and more difficult. Jobs at $130 or $140 or even $150 are not hard to come by and you can usually find one that doesn't require jumping through algorithm trivia hoops pretty easily. And $130k is a ridiculous amount of money to most people. My wife has never made more than $17/hr because she has a liberal arts degree that's essentially worthless, and even when I was making tens of thousands of dollars less per year it was a huge adjustment for her when we moved in together.
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Jun 27, 2021 21:12
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Good Will Hrunting posted:Only one can be true! Maybe they're counting the effort for just the job they got, discounting what went into the leads that didn't pan out. Or maybe they see a few months of one hour per day as relatively little effort compared to, say, years of work to get a degree or a professional designation.
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Jun 27, 2021 21:17
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