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Why does Mookie hide the author's first name? Does he think we forgot who Jacob was? Or is it a fakeout and it's a descendant of the Deegans who isn't Jacob. I wonder if Jacob's still alive 200 years later. He could be since he's a necromancer.
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Jul 2, 2021 15:47
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Yeah definitely a fakeout. So clever!
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Jul 2, 2021 15:52
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I'm still stuck on the sequence of events here. So let me get this straight: - Snout and co. go to the library (and apparently all ditch Snout to go... Do something else?). - Veth is running late, and sends a messenger to tell Snout. - Veth shows up, gives Snout a book, and then just also straight up leaves immediately. - Veth inserted a note partway through that book he assumed Snout would find, instead of, you know, just pointing out the page he wanted him to see before ditching him. Did I get all that right? It honestly feels like these people are loving with Snout rather than helping him.
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Jul 2, 2021 16:05
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Rotten Red Rod posted:I'm still stuck on the sequence of events here. So let me get this straight: It's keeping him busy while the adults actually do work
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Jul 2, 2021 16:13
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But why tell him you're running late if all you're doing is giving him a book? Why slip a note in that book he might not find about reading a page instead of showing him that page before you take off? Actually, why not slip the note in page 27 and have it say "read the poem on this page"? I know it's a case of "we're thinking about this more than Mookie did," but, MAN it's confusing. Also, page 27 huh? Looks like Mookie drew that book only like ~40 pages long.
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Jul 2, 2021 16:20
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Riot Bus posted:Yeah, because mocking art by purposefully misunderstanding simple information definitely makes you look cool and funny and smarter than Mookie. That's some Cinema Sins level poo poo. It wasn't on purpose, I am legit having trouble telling Veth apart from the other nameless orcs - and that fact that Mookie has now changed a primary identifier for his design twice (first his hair, then his clothes( is NOT making it easier for me. It's made worse by characters constantly floating in and out of the scene, coming from nowhere and going to nowhere with no clear motivation means I cant even use context to identify him, and then the lack of dialogue coupled with the lack of body language... I don't know what you want from me. I don't know man, maybe I'm just an idiot, but not being able to tell that was supposed to be Veth was 100% sincere GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Jul 2, 2021 |
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Jul 2, 2021 16:46
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Maybe Snout needs to learn about lucid dreaming because all of this is an incoherent dream with incoherent dream buildings that change shape on the inside or reflect things you see in daily life but distortedly, people change shape and size and motivation at random, people appear and disappear and motivations and goals never stay consistent if Snout learns lucid dreaming he can finally bring order to this disorganized, manic dream he's stuck in otherwise he is at the mercy of the next page's shift, ever adrift never realizing that everything has changed again and again and again what new things will be introduced and forgotten about in the haze of dreamlurch? whose personality will shift into a friend, an enemy, without warning, next? only by mastering lucid dreaming will this lovely comic stop being an incoherent stream of consciousness with no memory of any page older than a month
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Jul 2, 2021 17:38
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Rotten Red Rod posted:But why tell him you're running late if all you're doing is giving him a book? Why slip a note in that book he might not find about reading a page instead of showing him that page before you take off? Actually, why not slip the note in page 27 and have it say "read the poem on this page"? Honestly, the entire part with the orcling showing up to deliver a note saying Veth would be late was completely unnecessary and added nothing. Like, the reader could have easily assumed that they just showed up a bit early and Snout had some time to start reading books before Veth arrived, and then had Veth arrive in the exact same way and it would have read fine. I have zero idea why the whole orcling note aspect was added. GlyphGryph posted:I don't know man, maybe I'm just an idiot, but not being able to tell that was supposed to be Veth was 100% sincere I can also only go off of my own read of the pages to determine how clear it seems, so I can't just objectively tell you that something is easy or not - but it does feel like if one were reading these pages from the archive it would be less confusing, which is more of a general webcomic problem than a Mookie problem. Really, my comment was not about targetting you in particular, it's more like a trend that I've noticed while participating in this thread, which is people going whole hog into Cinema Sins style criticism of nothing when there are plenty of more grievous things to comment on that can't be attributed to them personally having a brain fart while taking in the contents of a new page.
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Jul 2, 2021 17:54
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Remember the other ink witch and the other dude with her? Remember how they were bad guys who kidnapped ink witch? I don’t think Mookie does.
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Jul 2, 2021 18:30
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At the time of the orcling delivery page Mookie must've had no clue why Veth asked Snout to meet him here, so he bought some time with the note. I can only assume he then got the idea for the first poem, realized he had no idea where to go with that after finishing the page, then pivoted to this second poem that more easily lends itself to full pages of exposition.
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Jul 2, 2021 18:44
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Looking back, they said the library probably wouldn't have the book Snout was looking for back in March.
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Jul 2, 2021 19:11
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DamnitGannet posted:Remember the other ink witch and the other dude with her? Remember how they were bad guys who kidnapped ink witch? I don’t think Mookie does. Now the much more important conflict is that one guy was rude to Snout. And it was cleared up by someone telling him to leave, off screen.
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Jul 2, 2021 19:26
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Riot Bus posted:Yeah, because mocking art by purposefully misunderstanding simple information definitely makes you look cool and funny and smarter than Mookie. That's some Cinema Sins level poo poo. This guy has only existed to take notes for Dexethar until this second. In the art, he's carrying multiple bags while Dexethar carries none, implying he's carrying both their bags. He didn't speak up for a moment, so to speak, in the only scenes he's been in. Meeting Snout was framed as this clandestine thing he was trying to hide from Dexethar, meaning it's highly unlikely that they're equals. I dunno, maybe I'm reading some loving context clues and making an assumption accordingly. Because my brain put those together differently from yours, and our two heads do not share the same contents. Maybe the real problem is that you're seeing "coming to a different conclusion from me based on the information at hand" as "purposefully misunderstanding simple information." Same with Vex's face, by the way! You could tell them apart easily, good for you, Mr. Smart Man. Other people couldn't.
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Jul 2, 2021 19:30
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Midnight Voyager posted:I dunno, maybe I'm reading some loving context clues and making an assumption accordingly. Because my brain put those together differently from yours, and our two heads do not share the same contents. Maybe the real problem is that you're seeing "coming to a different conclusion from me based on the information at hand" as "purposefully misunderstanding simple information." This isn't a question of connecting dots - it's you deciding that your subjective first impression is more accurate and the word of god than what the further development the author is presenting. You're arguing as if it's objective fact that Veth is just a servant when his being credited suggests otherwise. Before the moment you saw him credited the take that he's just a servant was reasonable, but seeing him credited suggests otherwise. My issue with your post was that you seemed to think that the vibe you personally took away from the first meeting with the characters is more true than what is ostensibly the authorial intent. This is the same as being introduced to two characters who are portrayed as passionately not getting along, only for the protagonist to later spot them kissing. You COULD go 'what! this doesn't make any sense! they were portrayed as not liking each other before! the author has forgotten their own story!", but in pretty much any narrative this would more reasonable be used to conclude that maybe their relationship is more complicated than you originally thought, rather than declaring it inaccurate to characters you hardly know anything abuot.
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Jul 2, 2021 19:55
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Riot Bus posted:This isn't a question of connecting dots - it's you deciding that your subjective first impression is more accurate and the word of god than what the further development the author is presenting. You're arguing as if it's objective fact that Veth is just a servant when his being credited suggests otherwise. Before the moment you saw him credited the take that he's just a servant was reasonable, but seeing him credited suggests otherwise. My issue with your post was that you seemed to think that the vibe you personally took away from the first meeting with the characters is more true than what is ostensibly the authorial intent. Sure, why not? If that turns out to be true, fine! But it's not the impression I got, so I made a one-off comment on a goddamn internet forum thread. Or maybe it's Mookie and he doesn't know that you don't credit transcriptionists that way because it's a one-off detail on a single book cover that wasn't really worth more of a note than the single comment I made. And then you blow it up into a big thing. When you could have just let the comment pass without fanfare and it wouldn't have mattered. Your subjective first impression of people in this thread was "willful misunderstanding." Maybe it's just MISUNDERSTANDING and nobody's trying that hard because they're reading a dumb comic thread on their phone on a break from something else. Meaning your subjective first impression, which you are taking as more accurate and the word of god than what is actually in people's brains, is also wrong. Try this next time: "Well, maybe he's more important than has been implied." Ah, yes, you could be right, and you are doing so without being a dick about it! Good show.
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Jul 2, 2021 20:05
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I’m honestly amazed he managed to soldier on following this kind of reaction. He genuinely thought Supergreg was a good idea. I know I would have been crushed if the idea didn’t take off with my fans and this was their response.
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Jul 2, 2021 20:10
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Yeah it's pretty amazing. There were two other forums (which are a pain in the rear end to navigate due to only existing on the Wayback Machine, so I can't extract any content from them) and they all seemed to have turned against Mookie around the same time.
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Jul 2, 2021 20:30
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Honestly, it's kinda funny where the line seemed to be drawn. They could get through the uncomfortable stuff but not a superhero?
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Jul 2, 2021 20:32
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Yeah, it's really bizarre looking back from a current-day mindset and seeing that it was the superhero poo poo and not the rape plot that got to people. The portrayal of the Stonewater stuff was just so terrible to my current sensibilities I have no idea how I got through it at the time. I remembered the thing with Melna but I forgot how much effort Mookie spent on making Melna (or anyone else) being angry about it seem irrational and even sinful. Though, like I've seen a few mention in the Keenspot forums, I think that DD's update frequency had a lot of people hanging on for much longer than they might have otherwise. A webcomic updating daily had a way of keeping people around regardless of what went on.
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Jul 2, 2021 20:38
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Riot Bus posted:This isn't a question of connecting dots - it's you deciding that your subjective first impression is more accurate and the word of god than what the further development the author is presenting. You're arguing as if it's objective fact that Veth is just a servant when his being credited suggests otherwise. Before the moment you saw him credited the take that he's just a servant was reasonable, but seeing him credited suggests otherwise. My issue with your post was that you seemed to think that the vibe you personally took away from the first meeting with the characters is more true than what is ostensibly the authorial intent. I'm a little on your side here, but I have to say that Mookie's slapdash approach to plotting means that his visual communication of ideas is remarkably poor. Mookie, when he presented Veth, was communicating a power differential between them and Daxethar, quite obviously. Now, I interpreted it as a more of a Professor/Grad Student thing, but there's no question that that was the relationship communicated, dominant and subordinate. Now, 2 questions come out of that, what and why? What is the nature of the relationship: Mookie provides us no clues as to what the context of that relationship is, or what sort of trouble Veth could get into for talking to Snout, which is what was implied could happen with the clandestine note. What are the stakes for Veth? What are his goals? Does he like Daxethar but finds his professor's manners embarrasing, or is there fear/resentment/hatred there? Why do we care: What are the stakes for snout and the story? Is Daxethar a minor obstacle or a major foe? What part does Veth play in Snout's quest? So, subsequently, we find that Veth and Daxethar have co-authored a book together, which might or might not mean their relationship is more equal then we though. The question then becomes, what was the purpose of all that info communciated earlier? At this point it seems like the relationship between Veth and Daxethar actually doesn't matter at all, and like Thelonius the introduction was just useless fluff. This matters because it speaks to Mookie's inability to actually us the language of his medium to communicate. He, either because of his bad plotting or general incompetence, exhausts his audience with useless nonsense that communciated nothing story relevant. He intorudces things that seem to contradict but never clarifies them. When people are confused by Veth's relationship, they're actually trying to grasp the reason they were given the info at all. In a normal story, there would be one, but in DD, there usually isn't. Beelzebufo fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Jul 2, 2021 |
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Jul 2, 2021 21:13
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Quite a few of them mentioned the rape thing as well as the first example of the comic jumping the shark. Maybe I'll go back and find the forum responses from that time too. But yeah, the beginning of the end of fan good will was this storyline, not that one, for whatever reason. Riot Bus posted:Though, like I've seen a few mention in the Keenspot forums, I think that DD's update frequency had a lot of people hanging on for much longer than they might have otherwise. A webcomic updating daily had a way of keeping people around regardless of what went on. I certainly read Sluggy Freelance for a LOT longer than I really should have considering how banal it was because it was my first webcomic. Once there were much better alternatives I realize that I - gasp - don't HAVE to read it. Same thing with the Goosebumps series. I read them because I was a voracious reader as a kid, and there were a lot of them to read, but I eventually realized there was a lot better stuff out there. Now, coming to today, as a 37 year old, I don't read ANY books! Mission succeeded! Beelzebufo posted:What is the nature of the relationship: Mookie provides us no clues as to what the context of that relationship is, or what sort of trouble Veth could get into for talking to Snout, which is what was implied could happen with the clandestine note. What are the stakes for Veth? What are his goals? Does he like Daxethar but finds his professor's manners embarrasing, or is there fear/resentment/hatred there? Yeah the fact that the orc mage dude (sorry I CANNOT remember these names) apparently kicked Dax out for being a dick to Snout is never referenced. Apparently it's just ok for Veth to still interact with him? Why is none of this explored? Why did him getting kicked out happen offscreen, without any of us seeing the aftermath? IDGI. Rotten Red Rod fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Jul 2, 2021 |
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Jul 2, 2021 21:21
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If Veth is some sort of assistant or subordinate Mookie actually did do a pretty good job at communicating that. As for Veth being credited as an author, eh, I'm willing to wait for clarification I guess. I just more want to see where all this is leading and, I agree with post above, it feels like when this comic does succeed at communicating something clearly it never really amounts to anything in the long run.
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Jul 2, 2021 21:24
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Rotten Red Rod posted:Yeah the fact that the orc mage dude (sorry I CANNOT remember these names) Arudak. ...what the hell, that's apparently the only name I can clearly remember in this without looking back for clarification.
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Jul 2, 2021 21:46
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That untelegraphed enjambment on the last line is a perfect summary of all the weird fumbles of Mookie's work. The whole thing is bad, but then there's a little detail that goes beyond basic incompetence. Like there's nothing inherently wrong with enjambment. If he'd just indented that last line it would have been fine. Or if there was any rhythm/structure/anything that would coach the reader on how to read each line (instead of very nearly the opposite). And it's not as if it's an insurmountable puzzle or whatever. It's just a little thing that makes the whole thing work just a little worse than it would've otherwise. That's kinda how I feel about the Veth thing. It wasn't impossible to figure out. I think I had basically the same experience that Twelve by Pies described: basically thinking he was a different person at first because the only way we have to identify most characters is their clothes and hairstyle and both of those had changed, but then figuring it out from context. And, you know, fine. Whatever. It's just that extra bit of unnecessarily work (or whatever you want to call it) that goes beyond the basic incompetence the permeates everything. And produces the equivalent of that sensation where you're going up stairs and try to put your foot down on a step that isn't there. Beelzebufo posted:Mookie, when he presented Veth, was communicating a power differential between them and Daxethar, quite obviously. Now, I interpreted it as a more of a Professor/Grad Student thing[...]  The fact that Daxethar has facial hair emphasises this difference.
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Jul 2, 2021 22:04
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Riot Bus posted:it does feel like if one were reading these pages from the archive it would be less confusing, which is more of a general webcomic problem than a Mookie problem. Yeah if we were reading these back to back in the space of a few seconds it might feel different, but reading them a couple of days apart makes a difference. Honestly I can't blame anyone for not wanting to devote even the smallest bit of brain space for this comic.
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Jul 2, 2021 22:55
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Rotten Red Rod posted:Quite a few of them mentioned the rape thing as well as the first example of the comic jumping the shark. Maybe I'll go back and find the forum responses from that time too. I've got some sideye for anyone who was willing to give Stonewater a pass but the sheer explosive awfulness of Supergreg is something special. There's no buildup whatsoever, one second you're reading a DnD webcomic and the next Supergreg is in your face with his uninspired spandex suit. Mookie must've felt invincible to think that he could pull it off, and I feel like everything that happens with Greg going forward must've been in response to Supergreg's reception.
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Jul 2, 2021 23:44
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Rotten Red Rod posted:- Snout and co. go to the library (and apparently all ditch Snout to go... Do something else?). They're offscreen reading along with us so when they come back they'll be instantly up to speed of course.
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Jul 3, 2021 00:00
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To be fair to people back then (lol) The stonewater thing wasnt...that out of the ordinary for webmedia at the time was it? I remember being a girl online back then it was sort of hard to find any webcomics that appealed to me because they were a bit dominated by the 2000s gamer boy demographic so the market was pretty saturated in sexism, racism, homophobia, etc. Not defending mookie for doing it, but I can see how readers may not be that shocked by it considering the "market"
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Jul 3, 2021 00:09
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Bismuth posted:To be fair to people back then (lol) The stonewater thing wasnt...that out of the ordinary for webmedia at the time was it? I remember being a girl online back then it was sort of hard to find any webcomics that appealed to me because they were a bit dominated by the 2000s gamer boy demographic so the market was pretty saturated in sexism, racism, homophobia, etc. Not defending mookie for doing it, but I can see how readers may not be that shocked by it considering the "market" Ok I just looked back at the Keenspot forums for 1/25/2006 (the infamous strip), and... You don't need to be fair to them. The responses of the people in the forum are absolutely disgusting. Everyone thinks Stonewater is blameless. Some were actually making jokes about how long orcs last in bed. Virtually none were calling out Mookie for crafting such a bizarre, exploitative scenario all for the purposes of making a "heroic rapist". I think maybe the negative reaction came later after others processed the story alongside the constant backdrop of monkeycheese garbage.
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Jul 3, 2021 00:24
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Rotten Red Rod posted:Ok I just looked back at the Keenspot forums for 1/25/2006 (the infamous strip), and... You don't need to be fair to them. The responses of the people in the forum are absolutely disgusting. Everyone thinks Stonewater is blameless. Some were actually making jokes about how long orcs last in bed. Virtually none were calling out Mookie for crafting such a bizarre, exploitative scenario all for the purposes of making a "heroic rapist". I think maybe the negative reaction came later after others processed the story alongside the constant backdrop of monkeycheese garbage. Oh well thats gross, I figured by "not calling him out" it was more indifference, which I could understand given the way media was then, than actually enjoying that storyline or agreeing with it. Early-mid 2000s online media spaces felt like an absolute hellscape if you werent a SWM
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Jul 3, 2021 00:33
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I hate every single font used in this stinking comic.
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Jul 3, 2021 03:57
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Howard Beale posted:I hate every single font used in this stinking comic. Yeah, none of it fits the texts we're looking at- the hand-scratched notes are fine and all, but every time we see print it's some goofy-rear end comic-like font but that doesn't make any sense.
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Jul 3, 2021 06:02
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Riot Bus posted:Yeah, it's really bizarre looking back from a current-day mindset and seeing that it was the superhero poo poo and not the rape plot that got to people. The portrayal of the Stonewater stuff was just so terrible to my current sensibilities I have no idea how I got through it at the time. I remembered the thing with Melna but I forgot how much effort Mookie spent on making Melna (or anyone else) being angry about it seem irrational and even sinful. That last part might actually be why people were more okay with it. The only people who have a disgusted reaction to Stonewater's actions are villains, mind-controlled by villains, or have it explained by Dominic, who is a Good And Rational Guy, that their rage is Very Irrational And Bad. That leaves an impression, especially on younger readers, who probably made up most of the audience. Add a bunch of people who actually believe that rape can be justified to the mix and most people who were disgusted at first would have quickly learned that this wasn't the popular opinion. Besides, it's not as if Dominic Deegan was or is the only place where the idea of the "heroic rapist" comes up. I haven't seen those in a while, hopefully because people actually speak out against them by now, but people have been giving that "Okay, but WHAT IF a terrorist threatens to blow up the orphanage UNLESS I rape this thirteen year old? Wouldn't it be the moral choice then?" since forever, along with "Okay, but what if she secretly WANTED to be raped?". (Which this comic is also guilty of, seeing as Melna retroactively decides it was okay and Stonewater is now her husband and she loves him and excuse me while I go throw up.) On a less depressing note, Super-Greg would have been okay as a one-time gag for a less serious filler arc between big stuff happening. Unfortunately what actually happened was the Deegan brothers playing superheroes, using the entire town as their action figures.
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Jul 3, 2021 08:18
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Yeah when I heard "Supergreg" I thought comedy subplot, not literally the resolution of this very serious threat to hundreds/thousands of lives.
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Jul 3, 2021 09:34
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Lmaoing at some of the old edits in the thread but also wowza Snout looks like a completely different guy. His body has gotten much hairier and lumpier, while his face has gotten more "cute". Interesting trade off.
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Jul 3, 2021 10:08
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this guy owns
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Jul 3, 2021 13:55
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Well Naruto withdrawal will do that to a man
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Jul 3, 2021 14:17
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I know it's because Rotten Red Rod censored the r-slur but I've been giggling for like a day at the idea of someone saying "today is the day that Mookie became the most redacted man on the internet"
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Jul 3, 2021 14:24
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Sometimes I wish he'd been redacted
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Jul 3, 2021 14:41
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| # ? Apr 26, 2024 08:56 |
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origin of the redactor revealed
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Jul 3, 2021 15:58
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