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Sydney Bottocks posted:Are my eyes deceiving me or do people actually want more boring as gently caress DW from Chibnall? she might get on with her acting career elsewhere though instead of sitting around waiting for the show to restart
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Jul 3, 2021 14:53
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My take on it is that Chibnall's DW is just so boring, and the parts that aren't boring are either extremely cringeworthy (like the pro-corporate Amazon analogy episode, or the whole "Timelss Child" thing), or they're good but not so good that I'm willing to sit through the rest of the bad stuff to run across them occasionally. I also am not one of those "let's bring back something we all have nostalgia for" people because more often than not it turns out to not be as good as the original (or, as good as we remember the original being). For example, nine times out of ten I don't want a band to reunite and record new stuff, because more often than not they're just going to embarrass themselves because they can't play like they did when they were younger (Killing Joke being the exception that proves the rule). I don't care about reboots or re-imaginings, and in many cases I would rather they just left the original thing alone. I don't care about the remake of The Prisoner. I don't want to see a reboot of Blake's 7. Nobody needed to see Edge of Darkness turned into a Mel Gibson movie. I couldn't give a poo poo less about anything Watchmen beyond the original comic. I have zero interest in JJ Trek and the only recent Star Wars property I felt was worth watching was The Mandalorian, because it did take a new spin on things and wasn't trying to tell the same story as the original trilogy, but with new characters. I gave up on the rebooted MST3K partway into the first Netflix season and didn't even make it through the first episode of the abbreviated second season. Much like how I gave up on nuWho partway through Moffat's run. That's why I'm puzzled when someone says "man, we're only getting a short season or some specials" of Chibnall's DW, because it's Chibnall's DW. (E: and just so I don't sound so negative, there are always exceptions to the reimaginings/reboots/sequels/prequels/etc. dislike I generally have. For example, the first two seasons of the rebooted Battlestar Galactica were really great. Ash vs. Evil Dead was a great example of "take a movie and make it into a TV series", and the first three seasons of Fargo were also great in a similar vein. And Mad Max Fury Road is simply one of the greatest action movies of all time. I even liked certain aspects of RTD's run on DW when he brought the show back, even if a lot of his actual episodes were really laughably bad. So there are always exceptions.) Again, not a knock on Jodie Whittaker, with the right showrunner I think she'd have easily eclipsed Tennant or Smith in terms of popularity. I just can't fathom working up the excitement to watch her Doctor knowing that her showrunner is just one of the worst elevated fanboys out there. Cerv posted:she might get on with her acting career elsewhere though instead of sitting around waiting for the show to restart Fair point, she's being absolutely wasted by Chibnall and I definitely wouldn't blame her if she decided to just move on (and do Big Finish audios) instead of hoping a better showrunner comes along. Sydney Bottocks fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Jul 3, 2021 |
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Jul 3, 2021 14:59
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Jerusalem posted:I loved when they did this with Charley and the Sixth Doctor and she had to keep going out of her way to avoid letting him know her past. It's possible that's where I ripped it off from directly!
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Jul 3, 2021 15:12
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Or this could be one of those things that just runs on and on forever. The Midsummer Murders of Doctor Who.
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Jul 3, 2021 15:38
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Open Source Idiom posted:Or this could be one of those things that just runs on and on forever. The Midsummer Murders of Doctor Who. I feel like that's one of Dante's levels of Hell. 
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Jul 3, 2021 15:42
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Sydney Bottocks posted:I couldn't give a poo poo less about anything Watchmen beyond the original comic. The HBO show was so good, easily some of the best television in the past decade.
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Jul 3, 2021 16:01
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howe_sam posted:The HBO show was so good, easily some of the best television in the past decade. I thought it was a total loving mess. It could have been really good, I love radical readings of texts, but they came at the king and they missed. Music was great tho.
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Jul 3, 2021 16:17
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Open Source Idiom posted:I thought it was a total loving mess. It could have been really good, I love radical readings of texts, but they came at the king and they missed. It had potential, but it was ultimately disappointing.
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Jul 3, 2021 16:32
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It also made a lot people look stupid when they insisted the Tulsa Massacre was a fictional element.
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Jul 3, 2021 20:16
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Just listened to The Light at the End, and it was a cute, if unambitious story. Compared to Day of the Doctor it wasn't as impactful, but it had some nice character moments and was just a well put together story. It's a shame the standard edition doesn't come with any interviews, I was interested in hearing more about the production, but oh well. It was a lot more straightforward than the meta weirdness that was Zagreus. Say what you will about that story, but it aimed high.
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Jul 3, 2021 23:56
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The best bit of The Light at the End is that BF wasn't planning to do a multi-Doctor story for the fiftieth, on the basis "Well, Tom turned down the twentieth, there's no way he's going to want to do a multi-Doctor for the fiftieth." And then after recording a Fourth Doctor story, Tom said, "So when are me and the others doing our anniversary story?" And then BF realized "Oh poo poo, he actually wants to do one." So they had to kind of hurry one into production.
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Jul 4, 2021 04:01
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Wait, you guys genuinely like Nick Briggs's stuff? He's got a really poor reputation in some of the other places I hang out, I'm surprised you guys don't feel the same?
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Jul 4, 2021 05:14
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Open Source Idiom posted:Wait, you guys genuinely like Nick Briggs's stuff? He's got a really poor reputation in some of the other places I hang out, I'm surprised you guys don't feel the same? I feel like he's a much better director than writer. The stuff he writes is prettt obviously his, and it feels rather workmanlike most of the time. It's Adequate Audio Drama.
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Jul 4, 2021 06:48
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Davros1 posted:The best bit of The Light at the End is that BF wasn't planning to do a multi-Doctor story for the fiftieth, on the basis "Well, Tom turned down the twentieth, there's no way he's going to want to do a multi-Doctor for the fiftieth." The lesson here is to never presume anything about Tom Baker except that he'll drink you under the table.
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Jul 4, 2021 06:54
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Open Source Idiom posted:Wait, you guys genuinely like Nick Briggs's stuff? He's got a really poor reputation in some of the other places I hang out, I'm surprised you guys don't feel the same? His own writing is generally average/fine, certainly nothing to get excited about but I rarely roll my eyes when I see he has done a story. But boy howdy does the man love him some Daleks. I mean, so do I, but he's loving nuts about them.
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Jul 4, 2021 10:15
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Briggs has a genuine enthusiasm for the franchise, which is pretty infectious when you hear him talk - since he got his start doing fan audios in the 80s, he's been doing it a long time. His writing can be a little by the numbers at times, but he always gives the actors space to breathe and have good character moments. I've heard that he doesn't take negative criticism very well though, especially of the 'Big' releases for the company, but aside from that, he seems like a cool guy.
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Jul 4, 2021 15:47
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I saw Battlefield again for the first time in a long time and it was good. It's a mess but it's good. It's crammed full of stuff but it works well enough to be enjoyable if not perfect. I wish Aaronovitch had had more of a chance to write for the show.
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Jul 4, 2021 16:39
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I’d love for them to get Aaronovitch back for the show, but I suspect RoL takes up all his time these days.
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Jul 4, 2021 16:45
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So I finally got around to starting 13's run. I've watched the first four episodes and it's.... good? Well the fourth episode, with the spiders, was a bit average. But the other ones were much better than I was expecting, especially after everyone's opinions on 13's/Chibnall's seasons. The Rosa Parks episode was... not nearly as embarrassing as I was dreading?
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Jul 4, 2021 23:01
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Her first season is pretty good, though the last episode was a bit of a let-down (Resolution, the New Year's Special, felt like a stronger ending to that season). It peaks at It Takes You Away which is a genuinely great episode, and there are a couple of episodes in there that make some utterly baffling choices, such as Kerblam!. It's the latest season where the real issues with Chibnall's writing really come to their fore. Even then, there is still some good stuff in there, and Jodie Whittaker remains the standout even if her Doctor is written as far too passive. The ending to the last season is ASTONISHINGLY bad, unfortunately.
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Jul 5, 2021 02:45
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OldMemes posted:I've heard that he doesn't take negative criticism very well though, especially of the 'Big' releases for the company, but aside from that, he seems like a cool guy. He bullied a dude on FB who gave Ravagers a 7/10, then went on podcasts defending his actions after the other guy apologised (something he didn't and shouldn't have had to do). He's also vocally trashed the work of others BF writers (Phil Pascoe, Paul Magrs, several others) resulting in them no longer working for the company, or spending significant time away. He's got some pretty lovely opinions about conservative watershed morality and Who too, but he's got some pretty crap narrative sensibilities and a tendency to think of himself as unimpeachable. He's not a great dude at times. Open Source Idiom fucked around with this message at 07:34 on Jul 5, 2021 |
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Jul 5, 2021 07:31
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Sounds like a white british boomer to me
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Jul 5, 2021 14:13
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Heroic Yoshimitsu posted:So I finally got around to starting 13's run. I've watched the first four episodes and it's.... good? Well the fourth episode, with the spiders, was a bit average. But the other ones were much better than I was expecting, especially after everyone's opinions on 13's/Chibnall's seasons. The Rosa Parks episode was... not nearly as embarrassing as I was dreading? Chibnall's two seasons are, on watch, better-to-much-better than they are when they linger in the memory. I think some weaknesses in several of the earlier Who seasons get wallpapered over because of the stronger serial arcs: 10's single season, in particular, has not aged especially well, and ranges from spectacular to embarrassing, but because it ends pretty strongly the overall impression trends more positively than it otherwise might. The Martha season may suffer from the reverse effect, somewhat. Donna benefits from a strong season and a memorable ending... and so on. 13's two seasons really don't stick the landing. Her first has the advantage of Resolution, which if you take it as the real season finale works fine for that. I'd even go so far as to say that the show needs to break itself of the "showrunner writes the start and ending of every season" pattern, because Chibnall is perfectly capable of writing a stand-alone episode, and he's even shown some promise at the beginnings, but doesn't do so well on endings. I like that he's taking some chances with the other stories: I'm not sure any previous Who would have dared something like Rosa or Demons of the Punjab, for example. It Takes You Away falls into the "pushing the format" pattern of old Who episodes like the Mind Robber and executes beautifully. S12's run features another "wouldn't have tried this before" episode with The Haunting of Villa Diodati, and Fugitive of the Judoon shows boldness of a sort I'm not sure we've seen since the Tom Baker years; the problem is that most of the best episodes of that season get hooked into the season arc, which I didn't dislike nearly as much as most people ITT but which did not carry itself off well. (I'd probably rank it somewhere around Last of the Time Lords and Name of the Doctor in terms of finales.) Personally, I think Chibnall would benefit greatly from some sort of UNIT-equivalent, having an old school kind of disconnected travel episodes with a smaller season arc based around the Earth-focused stories. If I were showrunner, I'd advocate for having 13 working with some ex-UNIT people plus the Zygons to try to address ongoing planetary threats. Unlike 3, I think 13 actually wouldn't resent doing that kind of work some of the time. Also, give Whittaker a few off-planet two-handers with her as the driver of the story. I don't know why the Doctorish moments she's gotten in multiple episodes haven't gelled for the fans like Capaldi in Flatline did, but the focus on ensembles isn't doing her any favors and Chibnall's scripts seem to be more interested in the concept of "The Doctor" than in the actual character and actor he's working with now.
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Jul 5, 2021 18:13
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Chibnall probably has good reasons for avoiding it, and they aren't great, but it sucks that Whittaker has never gotten a big brassy "The Power of the Doctor Forever, The Oncoming Storm" moment. She's written to just be so passive.
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Jul 5, 2021 21:22
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I finally got a chance to finish up the 9th Doctor Big Finish audio - storyline wise it's okay, not bad but not blowaway... but god drat is it great to hear Eccleston again, and he absolutely elevates the material and slots back into the role like he'd never left it.
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Jul 6, 2021 06:06
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The thing is only two episodes last season struck me as being especially sub-par... but one of those was the season finale so it left a bad taste in folks' mouths. And yeah there's just been something not quite clicking with Chibnall's run, between the ensemble getting in the way and the Doctor being kinda passive and just... a certain timidity? Like, by the end of Moffat's run I was definitely ready for more stories where the Doctor just saves planets and runs from aliens, and they kinda did fall back to that, but while Rosa and Demons of the Punjab dealt with tricky subjects the past couple of seasons have felt very safe. Lacking the ambition that drove Moffat and RTD to extremes.
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Jul 6, 2021 06:25
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Jul 6, 2021 10:03
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But it's not Friday
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Jul 6, 2021 14:08
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Yesterday I listened to Jubilee, and while it's a very good audio, time has lessened its impact somewhat, especially since we've had similar stories with Daleks since (I was also surprised how little of it became the episode Dalek - the way I'd heard it described, I assumed it was a more direct adaptation). The Davros fakeout was clever, and I liked the meta-commentary on the nature of the Daleks, but its a shame the dystopia wasn't explored more. I followed it up with Creatures of Beauty, which had some great themes and ideas and questions, but the non-linear structure was more confusing than revealing. It would have been nicer if there had been clearer transitions between the narrative chunks. It's a very good story, but the way it was told left me feeling a little cold. I also listened to the Mutant Phase, and it really captures the era it's based on....mainly because it was originally written then as a fan audio. It was fun, and the Daleks shouting THE MUTANT PHASEEEEEEEEE was funny. Is it really the best 5th Doctor audio though?
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Jul 6, 2021 14:15
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Maxwell Lord posted:The thing is only two episodes last season struck me as being especially sub-par... but one of those was the season finale so it left a bad taste in folks' mouths. I'm not even sure he lacks in ambition: the massive changes to series lore in the last season are nothing if not ambitious. I think it may have something to do with the way he sets priorities in stories, even the ones he doesn't write himself. Moffat had some well defined priorities, which are probably best in view at the beginning of S3 Sherlock: Moffat is profoundly disinterested with explaining the precise mechanism through which Sherlock faked his own death, and honestly he's less interested in the plot of the week than he is in the character beats for Sherlock and Watson. Subordinating details and explanations of the story to the characters, in other words, is a Moffat trait. He's also very good at writing minor characters who feel "real" and at developing a setting or environment that feels like it has more depth than we see on screen. Chibnall's interests are clearly not with character, although he doesn't completely ignore it. He can't sketch out a minor character in 2-3 lines and make them feel real, he needs more time to manage that. With more time, he's good with character. And he seems very interested in high concepts for stories, far more interested than he is in the intricate details of their operation. And unlike Davies, who actually greatly enjoyed playing into audience expectations, he's more enamored of twists and unexpectedness, but not as clever at setting up for them as Moffat tends to be. That means he's good at set-up episodes. The Woman Who Fell to Earth, for example, was pretty good because it was establishing characters, meaning that the focus isn't on the "wham" plot elements paying off but on a slower development process. Chibnall needs a slow development, so he finds that workable. And his high concepts are generally really solid. Just consider his older episodes: 42 is a gimmick episode with a timer and high stakes. Hungry Earth/Cold Blood is a Silurian reboot with an underlying environmental message (something he brings back as a theme in the last season). Dinosaurs on a Spaceship pretty much sells the concept in the title. The Power of Three is more interested in the Doctor being forced to wait and the idea of a slow invasion than it is in the actual resolution of the story, with the "exterminators from the dawn of time" angle both generic and disappointing. But the character bits before the plot starts paying off are solid. Go down the list of episodes of Chibnall Who, and you'll find every episode has a clearly defined high concept, and episodes not written by Chibnall which are weak on the characterization for the more sketched-in characters don't see any improvement in the edit stage. So Rosa never really makes us feel that the villain is a real person, but has a clear high concept and does well with the characterization of everyone on screen fitting the concept. Conversely, Patel and Hime are more solid at rapid character development, but they also aren't getting any script editor support when they're overreaching (I'm mostly thinking of Hime with Orphan 55, which has too many characters). S11 isn't really arc focused, but S12 is pretty coherent, being focused on technological development and the implication on planetary survival or destruction. That plays out on the environmental end of things (Orphan 55/Praxeus) but also along the "Gallifrey has been destroyed again" plotline. I suspect bringing back the Eternals may have some potential relation to the concluding episodes, but hard to tell if that will go anywhere. But that, perhaps, is key: the thematic underpinnings of the season do not clearly play out in the final episode. That, in turn, leaves one watching the whole series and feeling that it was thematically unfocused and the finale unjustified. A showrunner who started out by casting the first female Doctor and wrapped a season by completely upending the series mythology can't be described as unambitious in my book. But because Chibnall is designing unfocused seasons, it feels like he doesn't have anything really to say, like he's just being shocking to shock, and this compounds with his weak skills at designing episode finales so that a villain like Jack Robertson not only doesn't receive his comeuppance, he doesn't even seem to really get an ending at all. I'm wondering after writing all this just how many episodes over Chibnall's run so far people would describe as having "stuck the landing." Even the best ones that spring to my mind are better because of high concept-related elements, not the conclusion. Spyfall part 2 stuck the landing, maybe? Rosa? Even an episode like It Takes You Away was more about the situation than the resolution, to my mind.
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Jul 6, 2021 19:21
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Narsham posted:I'm not even sure he lacks in ambition: the massive changes to series lore in the last season are nothing if not ambitious. Yeah, but that's... lore. Having the first woman Doctor is ambitious in the sense that it risks idiots getting mad, and changing the lore causes all sorts of fandom shouting in both directions, but there's not really much in the episodes themselves that feels like a shakeup. Gallifrey being gone again doesn't really change how the show goes forward (where the Time War did, simply in the process of clearing the boards and the Doctor being lonely and haunted by what he'd done and so on.) I don't even have that strong an opinion on the Timeless Child revelation. On the one side it does make the Doctor more "special" and that's kinda dumb, on the other it does bring up the possibility of "past" Doctors we've never met and actions the Doctor has taken that she doesn't even remember and there's some potential there. It's easily ignored most of the time. The main problem with Timeless Children is it's a badly structured story where the Doctor doesn't get to do much and the big dramatic sacrifice is by... some guy. This is where Chibnall's falling down.
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Jul 6, 2021 22:54
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The main problem with the Timeless Child is that it took killing of kids to get to know how to regenerate. It even says in the episode it took years and several of the generations, and we see the kid grow until a teenager nearing eighteen. Either that's the most unlucky kid or Tecteun pushed them over the cliff again a few times deliberately. And starting an empire on a spate of kid torturing never usually gives it a good name from then on. happyhippy fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Jul 6, 2021 |
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Jul 6, 2021 23:24
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happyhippy posted:The main problem with the Timeless Child is that it took killing of kids to get to know how to regenerate. It's like the stupidest combination of elevated fanboy meets cringeworthy edgelord. "The Doctor is SUPER special and always has been AND the Time Lords had to murder a bunch of her younger selves to get the secret of regeneration!" You can practically see Chibnall sweating and biting his lower lip as he bashed that nonsense out.
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Jul 6, 2021 23:30
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I don't want to rewatch it, but what exactly was the plot point that identified The Doctor as The Timeless Child? Was that explicit and firm or was it implied and unreliable? Also the concept of "universe lore" is stupid, generally speaking. The world should exist to support the story, not vice versa. If a story exists just to tell you something about the world, it's empty naval gazing. Even Tolkein's most self-indulgent moments of unpublished world construction are still telling more "story" than The Timeless Child stuff does. And all of the fan service/culture/bullshit that surrounds "lore" is toxic baggage. 
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Jul 6, 2021 23:43
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CommonShore posted:I don't want to rewatch it, but what exactly was the plot point that identified The Doctor as The Timeless Child? Was that explicit and firm or was it implied and unreliable? The Master said it, so it's explicit and unreliable.
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Jul 6, 2021 23:46
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CommonShore posted:Was that explicit and firm or was it implied and unreliable? The Master said it, so it was explicitly stated but also unreliable. Which fair play to Chibnall, he did give an out to the whole thing for someone. Not that the Doctor being a big stupid dummy and believing the Master's incredible lies is a GREAT out, but well you know....
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Jul 6, 2021 23:48
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Dabir posted:The Master said it, so it's explicit and unreliable. Flight Bisque posted:The Master said it, so it was explicitly stated but also unreliable. From a VR video supposedly hidden in the Time Lord Citadel. Sure the Master could be lying that she is the TC, but did he whip up the VR recording she watched too? Bit weird when you didn't need to do that, as the real plan was to make Time Lord Cybermen anyway. And the Master doesn't know about Jo Martin Doctor, unless I'm mistaken.
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Jul 6, 2021 23:55
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happyhippy posted:From a VR video supposedly hidden in the Time Lord Citadel. It has been pointed out many times but he got that from the Matrix, a plot device whose literal first appearance shows the Master hacking it to show pretty much whatever he likes.
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Jul 6, 2021 23:57
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And in The Matrix's second and only other appearance, in Trial of a Time Lord, the records were also falsified.
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Jul 7, 2021 00:09
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It's even dumber than that! So The Master, after regenerating goes to Gallifrey for....some reason. He then gets access to the Matrix....somehow. He finds a disguised recording of a Irish policeman and somehow figures out that this means the Doctor is the timeless child because reasons. He then kills all of the Time Lords....somehow. Then he makes the Doctor watch the footage and tells her THE TRUTH which he knows somehow. Then she destroys the Matrix with the power of stock footage, even though the Matrix is meant to have such a powerful level of storage that it houses copies of Time Lord consciousnesses. Despite this, and previously noting how important a resource it is, the Doctor isn't very fussed. Despite the fact it could literally be used to ungenocide the species. She then leaves Gallifrey mildly annoyed by all this, then abandons a TARDIS to its fate. She then spends more time fawning over the 'fam' because these boring characters that give the actors literally nothing to do are the most important things ever. Then there's quite a good cliffhanger, admittedly. It feels like its aggressively undermining the 13th Doctor as character. Jodie Whittaker gets nothing to do except stand still while people monologue at her.
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Jul 7, 2021 00:25
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