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Catching a radio transmission from Revenge might be useful. Does our TN sensor technology have any applications for increasing the range of huffduff stations?
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Jul 7, 2021 19:30
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Asterite34 posted:Not a headquarters, no, a Dead Man's Switch. My guess would be it receives regular updates from the Gladio pirate radio network, and it if ever doesn't receive an update, it's to assume the organization is hopelessly compromised and it's time to burn all their assets with whatever arsenal of fireworks that thing has. It's insurance that even if they fall they'll make a big splash on the way out. The whole point of the doomsday machine is lost if you keep it a secret!
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Jul 7, 2021 21:20
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I don't see any point to a dead man's switch; doomsday already came and went. If that was this machine's purpose they would have nuked the commune of france long ago One boat's worth of SLBM's is a crying shame and a lot of dead people but it isn't going to shake the foundations of the world like it would have been twenty years prior atelier morgan fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Jul 7, 2021 |
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Jul 7, 2021 21:59
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Then clearly it's not a Doomsday Machine. Maybe it's a way to spectacularly burn compromised assets if their network goes down? A Sword of Damocles they hold over their own agents to assure loyalty? An ace in the hole in the event they get publicly denounced and openly hunted down? Maybe they're just saving it for a rainy day. It doesn't have to be world-ending to be bad enough to accomplish any of these objectives. The rumor of its existence has certainly kept us from being as scorched-earth with our counter-espionage as we could have been all this time.
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Jul 7, 2021 22:39
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We should just blow it up. I seriously doubt the potential intelligence gained can match the risk of the lives lost if that thing decides to let loose with its full payload.
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Jul 7, 2021 23:30
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This'll be a fairly short and sweet vote to keep the thread moving, but it looks like there's a couple basic courses of action being suggested, so I'm going to condense them down into plans. Do you issue instructions to: A. Kill the sub now. PRCal has two Los Angeles class boats operating in that general area and more assets can be summoned on-scene within a few days. Option A will gather as many forces as can be assembled and add the wayward British nuke boat to the Ranger's debris field. B. Observe the sub until it moves, then tail it to wherever it goes. Not only does the crew need to eat, there's no way this thing would still be operational without regular maintenance. It must be home-ported somewhere. By strategically publicizing the existence of the Titanic, as you've suggested, surveillance passes can be disguised as marine archaeology surveys - a good cover, for this was literally the first thing the Karzelek's sensors were ever used for, before the ship was even finished. Your research teams will be finished with ELINT modules in less than a month, which should allow you to intercept and decrypt any messages it sends; until then, you will merely observe. PRCal and Soviet submarines will - quietly, at a safe distance - establish a cordon around the boat, just in case it decides to launch, and you'll tail it wherever it moves. C. Something else, you suggest a plan. Some potentially useful information: 1. The Tranquility will be at Earth in a few days, and will land its passengers at Vandenberg for a massive media event and diplomatic summit, at a site which has already been prepared and is well within the effective range of the Revenge's missiles. 2. Vandenberg has orbital launch capability, and the China Lake team have a bunch of prototype hardware lying around. At the word, they could take the gun from their testing site, send it to Vandenberg, and have this: code:It has no sensors, and will be entirely depending on FESTER thermal imaging for targeting. This is a one-shot thing, it should be expended and then thrown away, but it would allow you extremely crude orbital strike capability almost immediately. If you have any questions or need clarification on anything just ask.
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Jul 7, 2021 23:45
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B. The sub's just one part of the bigger picture, after all.
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Jul 7, 2021 23:48
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B
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Jul 7, 2021 23:50
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Considering the mitigating measures in place, B
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Jul 7, 2021 23:55
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B
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Jul 8, 2021 00:02
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Please put the railgun in orbit, with a finger over the button 24/7, but B
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Jul 8, 2021 00:03
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Also, be prepared for a PR disaster for shooting an experimental TN railgun at the Earth. Editing my vote to A. Thinking on it, the Thor shot PR angle is probably more relevant than I was thinking. If we can take the Revenge down with traditional military pre-emptively, go for it. Gwyneth Palpate fucked around with this message at 01:14 on Jul 8, 2021 |
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Jul 8, 2021 00:22
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A It's interesting. But it's not "Possibly get nuked" interesting. Then don't even announce it. Just update the pamphlets on the Ranger site to include the wreck of the HMS Revenge.
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Jul 8, 2021 00:39
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A, also I feel that we should absolutely not put an orbital strike satellite into orbit, even if it's only a single shot one. It would damage the diplomatic relations we just spent the last year pursuing by broadcasting to the world that we are willing and able to deploy orbital weaponry, but it doesn't even provide the benefit of allowing us from preventing them from doing anything. Edit: Changed my vote to A because yeah actually they're almost certainly intending to strike soon and we can't afford the risk. VideoWitch fucked around with this message at 00:59 on Jul 8, 2021 |
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Jul 8, 2021 00:54
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A I don't trust it. We don't have a missile shield and won't for at least months. If they decide they want to nuke the Cydonia survivors or the PRCal or something we won't be able to stop them in time with a bunch of attack subs on stealthy picket dozens of km away. Spike the thing now and pick through the wreckage for any tidbits, this isn't their HQ it's a strike asset on the wrong side of the planet from where it should be but suspiciously close to our imminent highest value target on the planet.
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Jul 8, 2021 00:55
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Mister Bates posted:
 Good God... THAT'S why the Revenge is off the California coast. They're gonna nuke the Summit!Just think about it. Our big PR Coup, full of heads of state and foreign dignitaries, the crown jewel of over a year of diplomatic overtures, the moment the Comintern gets to play the Hero of Humanity with our rescued sailors and revelations about Mars and all these wonders of space we control and can use to tempt all these foreign powers to our cause. This one event is the central axis around which revolves all our big diplomatic projects. And somehow, they anticipated this, and can at the push of a button lob a 300-kiloton warhead at it that we can't actually stop. ...gently caress. We cannot allow that to happen. From what I'm given to understand, a shot from the proposed railgun satellite has a time to impact measured in milliseconds, even from orbit. If we're really keen on not just sending the conventional navy to sink the drat thing pre-emptively, then I am in favor of keeping that Sword of Damocles hanging over their head for the duration of the summit, with a finger on the trigger in the event it even shows a hint of surfacing in preparation of firing its payload. If they want to spoil our big PR moment, we can turn smiting them with the Wrath of God into another PR moment. e: Asterite34 fucked around with this message at 01:29 on Jul 8, 2021 |
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Jul 8, 2021 00:59
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Mister Bates posted:
Here's a critical detail: SLBMs must be launched from the surface, or just slightly below the surface. The missiles' rocket motor cannot fire while submerged, so the missile relies on an initial push from the submarine to rise above the surface of the water, and the momentum from that initial push is limited. See, e.g., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_missile_submarine#Armament quote:Some early models had to surface to launch their missiles, but modern vessels typically launch while submerged at keel depths of usually less than 50 metres (160 ft). Missiles are launched upwards with an initial velocity sufficient for them to pop above the surface, at which point their rocket motors fire, beginning the characteristic parabolic climb-from-launch of a ballistic missile. The upshot is, the Revenge, right now, at 800 ft depth, cannot launch its missiles. I propose plan C: quietly surround the Revenge with our own subs, close to well within torpedo distance, and then issue an ultimatum via hydrophone that the Revenge is to surrender immediately and remain in place until As long as we pin the Revenge in place at 800 ft depth, it can't do anything, so we have time to move some sort of clamp, barge, or other heavy object over the missile tube openings to de-fang the Revenge before towing it to port for interrogation. Any funny business, i.e. movement or flooding missile tubes or whatever will be met with immediate destruction. Boat Stuck fucked around with this message at 02:12 on Jul 8, 2021 |
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Jul 8, 2021 01:07
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I don't think a railgun shot will destroy a submarine that deep. It's protected by hundreds of metres of ablative armour.
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Jul 8, 2021 01:12
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The Lone Badger posted:I don't think a railgun shot will destroy a submarine that deep. It's protected by hundreds of metres of ablative armour. It definitely won't. At periscope depth it'll shatter it like glass, though. The missiles it launches will also be defenseless against such a weapon, assuming it still has its missiles, and that they are launched.
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Jul 8, 2021 01:23
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No matter what, launch the Missile Defense Satellite. No matter what else we choose, we want to option to stop it hard if need be.
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Jul 8, 2021 01:33
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begone, ghost post
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Jul 8, 2021 01:34
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Boat Stuck posted:Here's a critical detail: SLBMs must be launched from the surface, or just slightly below the surface. The missiles' rocket motor cannot fire while submerged, so the missile relies on an initial push from the submarine to rise above the surface of the water, and the momentum from that initial push is limited. I like this plan, since it doesn't use up our only prototype railgun with a satellite that other nations might get reeeeeal nervous about. However, the sub might question how the hell we found them, and figure out the full extent of our orbital surveillance capabilities. To remedy that, I propose an addendum to this plan: The Comintern, in honor of this international summit, in the spirit of peace and cooperation, will send an  Honor Guard of naval vessels, to hold a ceremony at the site of the sinking of the Ranger, to honor the dead of WWIII and give hope that such tragedies will never happen againIf our ships should just HAPPEN to stumble upon a rogue nuclear sub in the vicinity, well, what else is there for us to do?  e: in case it wasn't clear, In Favor of Boat Stuck Plan Asterite34 fucked around with this message at 16:46 on Jul 8, 2021 |
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Jul 8, 2021 01:38
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I've been informed that an underwater boarding capsule is not practical. So the ultimatum is revised to, stay in place until we can put some sort of clamp or other heavy object over the missile tube openings, and then we'll tow the now de-fanged ship into port.
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Jul 8, 2021 01:58
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Anyone who has remained in place this long must be extremely committed to their sadly-misguided 'cause'. I do not think a mere threat of death will sway them.
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Jul 8, 2021 02:03
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The Lone Badger posted:Anyone who has remained in place this long must be extremely committed to their sadly-misguided 'cause'. I do not think a mere threat of death will sway them. so if they're going to be difficult, we fire our torpedos and destroy them well before they can launch worst case, we still neutralize the threat best case, we neutralize the threat, and also capture a bunch of people that we can interrogate this plan entirely avoids the possibility of them getting away (which is the risk with plan B), guarantees that they can't fire missiles (another risk with plan B), and still allows us a chance to capture the ship and crew for interrogation and gain additional information (the benefit of plan B) it's win-win-win at best and win-win-neutral at worst, all the good parts of plan B without any of the risks slightly more detailed proposal for plan C, including input from the Discord and Asterite 1. Tell our SSNs to head towards the Revenge and surround it. Word of God is ETA 12-16 hours. 2. Tell a team of patrol boats to head towards the wreckage of the Ranger. The patrol boats should arrive at the same time as our SSNs. 3. As our SSNs/patrol boats arrive, put out a press release announcing that an "honor guard" memorial event will be held over the Ranger, and that a small fleet has been sent to the site to make initial preparations. This way, the counterrevolutionary pigs will just think it's bad luck and that they in hindsight picked a dumb hiding spot, and won't suspect FESTER. 4. As the press release goes out, our Los Angeles class subs makes the above ultimatum to the Revenge to remain in place, stay quiet, and wait for de-fanging and towing, or it gets destroyed with extreme prejudice. 5. Send clamp/salvage/towing vessels to secure the Revenge with the "honor guard" fleet above as cover. Only launch the railgun if our SSNs are unable to surround the Revenge for some reason (e.g. we have a mole and the Revenge slips away before our subs get to it). We'll know if our subs get the surround well before the railgun is ready for launch anyways. Boat Stuck fucked around with this message at 04:00 on Jul 8, 2021 |
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Jul 8, 2021 02:06
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Mister Bates posted:It definitely won't. A railgun shot hitting an ocean target is probably gonna cause tidal wave action.. So ya know, let's not. Edit: Probably not actually, Each shot is roughly 9.4 kilotons of Tnt going off on impact. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 02:47 on Jul 8, 2021 |
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Jul 8, 2021 02:24
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idhrendur posted:No matter what, launch the Missile Defense Satellite. No matter what else we choose, we want to option to stop it hard if need be. Okay, okay, people are talking me down a bit. A patrol of destroyers will be more than sufficient to keep them from doing anything bad.
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Jul 8, 2021 02:30
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I'm voting for the Boat Stuck Plan. Destroy it if it tries to flee or fight back, otherwise we capture the thing. But most of all, we can NOT let this thing endanger the Cydonia survivors.
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Jul 8, 2021 03:05
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Erring towards Boat Stuck's plan myself seeing as how it pretty thoroughly covers our bases.
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Jul 8, 2021 03:27
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zanni posted:I'm voting for the Boat Stuck Plan. Destroy it if it tries to flee or fight back, otherwise we capture the thing. But most of all, we can NOT let this thing endanger the Cydonia survivors. I'll throw my hat in on the Boat Stuck Plan.
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Jul 8, 2021 03:29
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Yeah I'm changing my vote to the Boat Stuck Plan
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Jul 8, 2021 03:31
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Fletcher is sitting in the lower corner of his video feed; the main screen has been replaced with an extremely 1970s-styled if well-ornamented office and desk. Behind the desk on the wall is the symbol of the Deutsche Volksmarine, and on the chair in between it is no less than Admiral Wilhelm Ehm, the commander of the Volksmarine. A nondescript German rating with an unfortunate mustache is standing next to Ehm's desk with a stack of photos and diagrams. "A 'boomer' submarine is the most dangerous weapon ever devised by humankind, at least thus far. But a 'boomer' is completely reliant on stealth to do its job. No stealth, no attack." Ehm grins, not kindly. "If we truly have discovered it without being right on top of it as you describe, there should be medals for everyone involved down to the janitors. Being able to find missile subs before they launch is less a game-changer and more a total shift in reality." His face returns to its resting taicturnity. "In order to launch missiles, a submarine like Revenge needs to be at firing depth or less. About 300 feet, in its case. Lower than that, and opening the silo doors would be suicidal." Ehm shakes his head. "The interior of the missile tubes is inside of the outer pressure hull, which is the only thing that can withstand the weight of all that water at those depths. The interiors are not rated for the same kinds of pressure, opening them at under firing depth is basically asking for the sub to collapse instantly. I would be surprised if the machinery is even able or permitted to open under higher pressures than the sub could survive." He nods to his aide, who puts up a picture next to him of a simple sea-profile chart with a line drawn across it labeled FIRING DEPTH. "So she must be above firing depth to launch nuclear missiles. She can do this underwater, or on the surface." He taps the water in between the line and the surface. "She can launch underwater, but this requires several things. First, the sub has to be 'hovering' -- not moving, using engines and propulsion for station-keeping only. Second, and very importantly, the launch tubes have to be flooded before firing." Ehm looks at the screen. "Missile launch tubes are kept pumped out, because saltwater and delicate machinery don't mix. But they must be flooded before the outer door can be opened, like how an airlock must be pressurized or depressurized before it can open. Opening the doors to just flash-flood the tubes is a bad idea, because the rush of water will both stress the tube compartments, which..." He makes a popping gesture with his hands. "And more immediately, it can also damage the missiles. Again, the machinery very well might refuse to even open the outer doors if the pressure is too high." Ehm looks at the camera. "More importantly, this is also very noisy. Noise is death for a submarine, and the sound of flooding the launch tubes is very detectable and distinctive. If you have Revenge dead to rights and she attempts to start launching her payload, any properly trained acoustics officer will know immediately." Ehm taps the chart at the surface. "This is not the case if they're on the surface, of course, but the doors still need to be opened, and some pre-launch preparations cannot be skipped even in the gravest of emergencies. And a submarine sitting on the surface is a target barge for any missile-armed warship, not a threat." He looks back at the camera. "And, again, Revenge would need to be stationary, which... I would not want to try launching missiles while NOT being so." He shakes his head. "I was on board a Navaga-series for a test firing during my Naval College tour. A nuclear missile is a multi-stage object and the initial stage firing it out of a submarine is like..." He pauses, searching for a metaphor, and cracks a smile when he finds it. "Shooting a big potato gun. It puts out a lot of force, and will shake the submarine badly even firing just one, let alone multiple in sequence." His smile fades. "Even if they are fanatics trying to strike a final blow before their own death, that would be avoided at all costs. Additional motion would throw off the initial stages of the launch." Ehm folds his hands. "There should be no mistake, Revenge can absolutely launch all of its missiles terrifyingly quickly if it wants to. But this is five or ten minutes quickly, not five or ten seconds quickly. A 'boomer' submarine relies on stealth to buy it that window, and it is very good at getting that." He smiles that very not-kind smile again. "Stripped of that stealth, well, you have an overweight, enormous target. It does have six torpedo tubes of its own, but a dedicated attack sub can outperform it significantly. Under more than one set of guns - or, rather, torpedo tubes -- it will either run or die." Fletcher returns to the main screen, nodding his thanks to the Admiral, but his face is hard. "As capturing the Revenge seems at least within the realm of possibility, and Admiral Ehm has voiced his tentative approval -- he is the expert here -- I am prepared to voice my support for that option. But Germany has one thing it wants to be set in stone." He frowns. "Should the Revenge make any kind of motion that could make launching nuclear missiles possible -- flooding her launch tubes, opening the missile silo doors -- she is to be immediately destroyed. No second chances, no checks or warnings." He nods over to the window, apparently forgetting momentarily that no-one watching his camera can see out of it. "Nothing that could be on that submarine is worth sacrificing the lives of millions, which is what any launch from her will mean." [[OOC, however, there's some tantalizing possibilities as to what COULD be on Revenge. She could have a connection to the GLADIO network, of course... but a nuclear submarine is also exactly the sort of undetectable vanishing trick that would be used as a bugout method for any number of persons of extreme interest. The list of ones who could be on a British submarine is not long... and Queen Elizabeth II, notably missing since the British Revolution, is at the top of it. That would be exactly a reason for Revenge to be kept supplied and in maintenance in absolute secrecy, though it doesn't explain why she would be where she is. I'm also in favor of formally introducing Ehm's offhand suggestion, too -- EVERYONE involved in the Hunt for the Revenge should get a special award. And not just the crew, though that geosurveying tech deserves an especially shiny medal -- also the engineers and scientists who developed the technology. What has been accomplished here was in the realm of complete fantasy when Revenge was designed and built, it is a truly monumental achievement.]] Redeye Flight fucked around with this message at 03:34 on Jul 8, 2021 |
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Jul 8, 2021 03:32
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the Boat Stuck Plan is currently winning by one vote and I'll be closing votes in a couple hours.
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Jul 8, 2021 04:11
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zanni posted:I'm voting for the Boat Stuck Plan. Destroy it if it tries to flee or fight back, otherwise we capture the thing. But most of all, we can NOT let this thing endanger the Cydonia survivors.
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Jul 8, 2021 04:21
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I guess the competitor to the boatstuck plan is the boatmurdered plan where we murder everyone on the boat by blowing it up with torpedoes?
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Jul 8, 2021 04:24
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switching to Boat Stuck plan
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Jul 8, 2021 04:36
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Voting is closed. Operation STUCK BOAT is a go.
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Jul 8, 2021 05:37
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The Lone Badger posted:I guess the competitor to the boatstuck plan is the boatmurdered plan where we murder everyone on the boat by blowing it up with torpedoes? It was, yes. We should probably have our geosurveyors look into other shipwrecks for hidden submarines, now that we're aware of the trick.
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Jul 8, 2021 05:55
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Veloxyll posted:It was, yes. We should probably have our geosurveyors look into other shipwrecks for hidden submarines, now that we're aware of the trick. Specifically shallow ones. Finding the Titanic and Bismarck in this particular search basically only happened because we went over the entire North Atlantic. Functionally, no military submarine of the time period can dive much deeper than Revenge is here -- 800 feet below the surface. This may seem shallow, but honestly getting to that depth might well be harder than going to space. At 800 feet down you're dealing with 23 atmospheres worth of pressure, which requires a fair bit of engineering to withstand for something the size of a nuclear submarine. It's also paradoxically so shallow that not a whole lot of wrecks are at that depth (and in real life, a lot of the ones that are have disappeared thanks to illicit piece of poo poo metal salvagers). Ships like sailing and fighting in broad open water so they can move around without running into poo poo, which means as deep and uncrowded as possible (to avoid hitting undersea rocks and shoals and such). So most military shipwrecks wind up in over 1000 feet of water.
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Jul 8, 2021 06:43
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It does make me wonder how much more of the oceans are now open for potential exploitation with TNE supported technologies, but it’s of questionable value either way beyond terrestrial biology or potential alien based.
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Jul 8, 2021 07:10
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